Starcraft Mafia: 2 -- Game Over!
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Krazy Jack of All Trades
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Shoshin the worst Goon
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In response to your concerns, Varsoon:
1. the worst addressed the "stretch your mind" phrase in 150. The "no meta" post wasn't a defense to that.
2. the worst has a long history of holding back his reasoning on reads until much later in the game (e.g. in Labyrinth where he gave a read on D1, then refused to explain that read until somewhere around D4), and I often hold back reasoning as well for shorter stretches of time to test reactions. In Taly's case, we've discussed his behavior/meta extensively in our hydra PM and promise everything will be explained before end of D1.
3. We disagree with you about "mafia theory" when it comes to playing hydras. Given our previous experiences disagreeing when we were both town, you shouldn't scumread us for disagreement. We understand that you want to treat us as two separate players who are playing under one slot, but we're not playing as separate players so your desire to treat us as separate isn't possible. We're playing as one player. Given your lack of complaint about others who play as one player (most of the playerlist), we don't think that should be an issue.
4. The fact that we're playing our hydra in this way is actually a town tell for us because if we had received a scum PM we would have used every scummy tool at our disposal, including extensive hydra dissonance, cluttering the thread with disorganized back-and-forth arguments with each other that served no purpose other than drowning out meaningful posting, as well as other scummy tactics that hydra mechanics make possible. As you should know by now, neither of us would ever limit ourselves in this way as scum. Especially me (Shoshin). I don't have a hydra meta so limiting myself like this in my first game as a hydra isn't something I'd do as scum.
We hope you come to townread us because we don't think it's going to be helpful for you to push our lynch all game. At the very least, you should give us an opportunity to find and lynch the scum before declaring us scummy.
-the worst & Shoshin-
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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In post 481, Varsoon wrote:You'd think that if people saw it as fake they'd either
1. Decry it as such
2. Figure it for a gambit and play into it in order to see the results on people it did fool
Neither happened, which is curious to me.
Dunno if it's all that fruitful of a line of inquiry, though. :/
As far as accurately reading you, I did so in Starcraft after engaging with you and having an incorrect read initially. This is why it's important to engage with players and be present. I also accurately townread you in Excalibur, or, rather, I had you as 'locktown' because I found your play to be absolutely defensibly town from a town PoV and knew there was no use in fighting for a lynch on you there, as scum.
People do love to throw up the 'Varsoon cant read me!' bit a lot, though, and they've done it as either align, so I don't know how to take it.
-V
With all due respect Varsoon, I’ve only played one game with you as town, and you tried to get me mislynched in that one, so I don’t even know if you expect me to take this seriously or not?ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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In post 488, pinturicchio wrote:
Just got back into the game and saw this, what do you mean?In post 485, Michael Scott wrote:Also what's up with solo players signing their posts but hydras refusing to.
~You-know-who
-Turicchio
~Not Ari.ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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+1In post 489, Alchemist21 wrote:I didn’t think you would expect anyone to tske it seriously either, I just thought it was an emphasis on how much you wanted them lynched.ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
Pleased to meet you,
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But what's puzzling you,
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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???In post 492, Varsoon wrote:
I didn't really have many expectations when I did it, but I did find it kind of weird that no one said a thing about it.In post 489, Alchemist21 wrote:I didn’t think you would expect anyone to tske it seriously either, I just thought it was an emphasis on how much you wanted them lynched.
It actually lowkey makes me think that STW is scum,for really fargone reasons that I'm not proud to share.ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
Pleased to meet you,
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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Is there anyone who really believed you triple voted them?In post 493, Varsoon wrote:Forgot to sign, whoops.
Also, screw it, here's my dumb rationale there:
Scum allies of STW didn't want to say anything to toss any sort of associative on the off-chance it was a real hammer and so they silently let it slide until mod confirmed it one way or another and they're smart enough to know that they'd get no points for making a fuss over it once confirmed as a lie.
-V
Because this argument rests squarely on that presumption.ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
Pleased to meet you,
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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+1In post 495, Alchemist21 wrote:That’s a pretty far stretch. Why didn’t any Town players respond to it either? The fact that nobody responded to it makes the lack of response NAI and I don’t know why you’re hung up on this.ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
Pleased to meet you,
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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Had Varsoon actually claimed triple voter beforehand, I might have taken it a bit more seriously but w/o any claim, I assumed it was fake.In post 497, Michael Scott wrote:
He's not singling out any player or saying that the lack of response is AI, though.In post 495, Alchemist21 wrote:That’s a pretty far stretch. Why didn’t any Town players respond to it either? The fact that nobody responded to it makes the lack of response NAI and I don’t know why you’re hung up on this.
Town and scum needn't necessarily react the same way to the triple vote, and he's exploring possible motivations behind why scum, in particular, would ignore it -- especially in the lens of Shoshin being scum. While it is stretched and not really convincing, it's not invalid analysis.
~MehShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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@Mew, why tf are your voting Alchemist21?
ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
Pleased to meet you,
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ProFlavor Goon
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There are people who think we seriously wanted a page 3 lynch so anything's possibleIn post 506, Mephistophanes 39 wrote:
Is there anyone who really believed you triple voted them?In post 493, Varsoon wrote:Forgot to sign, whoops.
Also, screw it, here's my dumb rationale there:
Scum allies of STW didn't want to say anything to toss any sort of associative on the off-chance it was a real hammer and so they silently let it slide until mod confirmed it one way or another and they're smart enough to know that they'd get no points for making a fuss over it once confirmed as a lie.
-V
Because this argument rests squarely on that presumption.
~ woof-
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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Varsoon Scatman
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@STW:Your point 4 is entirely WIFOM. As scum, I am constantly undermining my own play because I'm next-level. Yeah, if you were level-1 or 2 scum, that's how you'd approach play, but I know from the last game you played that you're trying to break into level 3 play.
Anyway, I don't find your answer to be satisfying of my suspicion.
@Mephistophanes:I didn't try to get you mislynched there (assuming you're talking about StarCraft 1?); I sorted you properly and came to the correct conclusion that you were town. I wasn't informed enough to know if you actually were town, so I couldn't have been intentionally pushing a mislynch. My point stands that I've correctly townread you in our last two encounters and in this one I'm going to need more interaction and data and, yes, at some point, I might vote you, but it's all in the effort to sort you. I don't see myself voting you anytime soon, as you've been more confusing to me than scummy, if that makes sense. You've helped sort out a lot of stuff, though. I appreciate it.
Why are you giving people +1 here and there? What's the purpose of that?
-V-
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Michael Scott Mafia Scum
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I'm disliking this. I could argue that not signing with the intention of "synchronisation" can also be beneficial to scum, allowing you to fudge tone, delay responses, and make it difficult to carry a conversation with one of your heads.In post 501, Shoshin the worst wrote:The fact that we're playing our hydra in this way is actually a town tell for us because if we had received a scum PM we would have used every scummy tool at our disposal, including extensive hydra dissonance, cluttering the thread with disorganized back-and-forth arguments with each other that served no purpose other than drowning out meaningful posting, as well as other scummy tactics that hydra mechanics make possible. As you should know by now, neither of us would ever limit ourselves in this way as scum. Especially me (Shoshin). I don't have a hydra meta so limiting myself like this in my first game as a hydra isn't something I'd do as scum.
~Jimothy-
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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I obviously didn’t mean that you did that KNOWINGLY but you did try to aggressively wagon me, before you backed off. Yes, of course I mean that game. What other game have you been town in with me?In post 512, Varsoon wrote:@STW:Your point 4 is entirely WIFOM. As scum, I am constantly undermining my own play because I'm next-level. Yeah, if you were level-1 or 2 scum, that's how you'd approach play, but I know from the last game you played that you're trying to break into level 3 play.
Anyway, I don't find your answer to be satisfying of my suspicion.
@Mephistophanes:I didn't try to get you mislynched there (assuming you're talking about StarCraft 1?); I sorted you properly and came to the correct conclusion that you were town. I wasn't informed enough to know if you actually were town, so I couldn't have been intentionally pushing a mislynch. My point stands that I've correctly townread you in our last two encounters and in this one I'm going to need more interaction and data and, yes, at some point, I might vote you, but it's all in the effort to sort you. I don't see myself voting you anytime soon, as you've been more confusing to me than scummy, if that makes sense. You've helped sort out a lot of stuff, though. I appreciate it.
Why are you giving people +1 here and there? What's the purpose of that?
-V
I post a “+1”, whenever I see a post I 100% agree with.ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
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Varsoon Scatman
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@Mephisto: I didn't know for sure that you meant that game and that you didn't mean knowingly. I don't know if I've been town with you outside of that--hadn't we played some games together before? My memory kinda sucks.
Thanks for explaining the +1 thing. I didn't know if it meant that you were handing out townpoints or agreeing or pushing that post forward or what.-
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Michael Scott Mafia Scum
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Shoshin the worst Goon
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Mephistophanes 39 Goon
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I am not aware of any games we’ve played other than Starcraft 1, where you were town in. Oh unless, you’re referring to the game from hell/Drealmer’s RHPS clusterfuck? I don’t think meta is at all reliable from that game.In post 515, Varsoon wrote:@Mephisto: I didn't know for sure that you meant that game and that you didn't mean knowingly. I don't know if I've been town with you outside of that--hadn't we played some games together before? My memory kinda sucks.
Thanks for explaining the +1 thing. I didn't know if it meant that you were handing out townpoints or agreeing or pushing that post forward or what.
Yeah, all +1 means, is that I totally agree with whatever was said in that post.ShowHydra of Aristophanes and Nancy Drew 39
Pleased to meet you,
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Varsoon Scatman
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Michael Scott Mafia Scum
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Your first sentence implies we're a TR, "gravy" implies mixed feelings though, clarify for me?
~Blah-
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Michael Scott Mafia Scum
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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@stw I thought you were done with this synchronized hydra nonsense but in retrospect you were just not signing and I was just inferring who was authoring the posts.
This is still scummy
also, I've given enough thought process that I think town!tw has a town read on me here at least 50% of the time
VOTE: shoshin the worst103-11 0-2-
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Varsoon Scatman
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It's all Gravy, like it's all Good.In post 520, Michael Scott wrote:Your first sentence implies we're a TR, "gravy" implies mixed feelings though, clarify for me?
~Blah
I'm from the deep South
It's all G
-V-
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u r a person 2 Jack of All Trades
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yeah, i asked those questions, the guy who you are voting for. =PIn post 498, ProFlavor wrote:someone said something about FL coasting a bit - he always does that. He invited me to hydra with him so I was kinda thinking I'd let him lead proceedings but he is never going to be as active as I am so that approach probably wont help.
I recall someone asking me about my T&L read- its not an amazing read really - BH & GE are both players I approach by saying they are town until they do something scummy because I mostly just don't get any vibe from what they say - I often play with him and people in the player list will be like 'oh gamma/BH is def scum' and I'm just sat here like "am I stupid i do not get that?!"
...but, for example in overkill 2, gamma was obviously defending a scum player so it was obviously AI and led to me copping him.
I'm not sure how far behind as I've skimmed most of the thread but I'll be reading tonight i think.
Do you have any town reads that you are feeling confident in? Taly, maybe?103-11 0-2
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