Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Enter]

@Enter - TvT was referencing Loopdan vs. Skellen. Sorry you wasted so many words but you need to reread those interactions.

That's my point, dude. YOU ARE loopdan. Thespio says "I think this is TvT" referencing you and skellen. And you say "I agree"

My point is: glad to know you're town.

And the thing about Thespio doesn't matter. You said:

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

So you're either asking for why are they townreading Thespio (who you JUST scumread) or why are they townreading you (which you should agree with anyways).

I didn't misread anything. There's only two options here, and the Thespio thing makes more sense to me (that you just misunderstood what they were saying about TvT or TvS.

And I said that you changed your vote "LIKE" six times. FOUR on six pages is STILL ridiculous, considering especially how d1 went over and the last day. Stop trying to hide behind technicalities.

[Enter]

Especially the WAY you flip your vote (and also didn't place it) when voting Thespio.

[Nauci]

Vote Count 1.4

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

PvtUrist (2) -

Elements

11

,

Skellen 118

,

Loopdan 125

MissDeadbeat (1) -

Thespio 100

,

Loopdan

109

Loopdan (1) -

Enter 130

UNVOTE/Not Voting (2) -

Skellen

5

,

PvtUrist

5

,

Munchmellow

5

,

Elements

5

,

MissDeadbeat 5

,

Enter

5

,

muh316

5

,

Thespio

5

,

Loopdan

5

,

muh316 101

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2019-01-21 05:00:00).

Mod Notes

MissDeadbeat has been prodded. She has (expired on 2019-01-13 20:00:00) to post game-relevant content before I seek a replacement.

[Skellen]

Trying out this multi quote thing for the first time. It's a bloody mess.

1) Thespio does not deny his scum allignment in #122

2);

How different do you feel with forum Mafia vs IRL?

1) To be honest I take his reply as not taking your post seriously. As I did too. Maybe I am just not good at recognizing such scum slips, since Enter kind of implied to agree with you on this, but for me it's no good argument because I doubt scum would imply that they might be scum. I mean it's literally asking for attention, the thing they want the least and in this case I don't see how a scum-Thespio would benefit from it.

2) It's definitely slower paced as forum game, day 1 awkwardness aside. But that's natural. And since it's an actual thing, the inactives aren't that annoying irl since at one point all players will just awkwardly stare at the person who didn't say a thing so that the silent ones are forced to say or do something. However I expect the best parts of forum Mafia will come later, it would actually be nice to be able to reread everything instead of trying to remember everything.

Read update;

Skellen; Loopdan explains how I feel about

him

/her well in 126

Thespio;

isn't talking about girls=scum

safely parks vote on inactive player rather than engaging with the more active players

First: Fixed by me, since I already saw Loopdan being on the wrong track.

As for Thespio. Unlike this so called scum slip this is actually a good argument. If I remember it correctly he indeed sneaked his way through the day like an eel without confronting a single person, which is quite remarkable, if we consider that he is by posts one of the most active players here. Have to rethink this under the assumption of scum-Thespio. In any case I am interested how he is going to handle the accusations from today.

[Munchmellow]

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

[Enter]

You aren't reading very closely. I've voted four times. You must be including Element's two votes that I quoted in 18. But even if it had been six times. So what? Are you arguing that it's more likely that I'm scum throwing out these votes to try and see what will stick, than I am town trying to sort players through discussion and pressure? Explain why vote changes like mine are scummy. You don't get to just declare something is scummy and have everyone believe you.

I've put far more explanation into my single vote on you than you have on all four of your votes combined.
Your vote changing four times in six pages is still wildly ridiculous considering one of them was on an inactive player, one was a SHEEP vote, and two were in RVS. This is what I mean by your play is hypocritical - you say one thing (asking me for more info on my vote) and do another (don't provide reads w/ your vote).
ALSO your vote changing four times in six pages is still wildly ridiculous considering you don't have a SINGLE scum read and you have ONE strong town read. Almost every other player in THE GAME has contributed more than you have.

I'm saying your vote changing so much is indicative of you not knowing who on earth you should vote and trying to find a wagon where it will stick. Especially w/ no reads in the process. To call it fence-sitting would be an understatement.

You are conflating me saying that I don't like how Thespio brought up the "lynch me before no-lynch" thing with me thinking he is scum. That's not how that works.

So, as I said, (and you accuse me of not reading closely), you saying you don't like it and not putting your vote on him is wrong.

I would feel your constant vote change is MORE acceptable if you had maybe put your vote on him here, because this is one of THE ONLY TIMES IN THE GAME where you give reasoning for thinking someone might be scum. ACTUALLY THE CLOSEST YOU'VE GOT TO A SCUM READ and your vote doesn't change to him? WHY?

WHY are you SHEEPING TOWN after asking town to scumhunt and voting for a LURKER when you just said you think this is weird/ you don't like it. You told another player to be free w/ their vote (IIRC) and yet your vote (ha, i guess it's free) has been on four different players for some of the dumbest reasons I've ever seen.

You entirely missed this. TvT was Loopdan v Skellen. But now I see why you missed it because I wrote Thespio instead of Skellen when I asked Munch about it.

You last point was about me being noncommittal. OK. It's page six. I found one strong townread and that's pretty good progress. Contrary to what you seem to think you are doing here, you don't solve the game on page six.

Oh. I guess there was the third option, that it was about Skellen. Seems a bit like a freudian slip, tho.

You being noncommittal after asking town to be scumhunting is disgusting. You not having any scum reads on page six and SHEEPING your townread is dumb. It's PAGE SIX you should be scumhunting. Your vote should be wherever you think the player is the most scummy. You don't sheep unless you have no clue where scum are and you think that trying to talk about it would derail a current conversation and even then you said he was at L-2 (which to me implies you want him lynched). Who even brings up L-2? I guess it's fair to do, it just looks REALLY weird.

Anyways, it's PAGE SIX and I haven't seen you scumhunt at all in any form of acceptable manner. You even swapped votes in RVS after asking elements why he swapped votes in RVS (implying it looks weird to you). You even voted a LURKER which gets you nowhere. The one big time I remember you calling out someone for being scummy, YOU DON'T PLACE YOUR VOTE. Please, find another time you called someone scummy, that just makes it worse. You're saying things look weird/off to you and then voting for lurkers and sheeping your one town read.


======


can we just talk for a minute about how wild and bad it is to be sheeping? Especially in a newbie game, ESPECIALLY as IC, ESPECIALLY ON PAGE SIX when you have NO IDEA WHO SCUM ARE. If you don't know, please try and find them. If you have nothing on page six as IC that's a bad sign and you should be asking people why they have stronger reads than you do.

Also, what is your experience playing Mafia?

I played off site from about 2012-2014. Onsite in 2014, onsite in 2016, onsite in 2018. What's yours.

[Enter]

@Loopdan

If you don't know where to look, what to ask, what to do, feel free to ask a player.

They know what to do apparently.

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

This is A GREAT question for someone who looks like they're trying to avoid playing the game by talking about the theory behind it.

[Skellen]

Onward to recent developments.

Enter's entry is pretty good. A replacements that finally works, please stay. He is trying to crack up new cases with Loopdan and Thespio. I am indifferent about some points against Loopdan, since some look a little bit like hair splitting to me (like the TvT-agree-issue) but he seems to be a quite experienced player so maybe there is some merit to it, so I am interested where this is going. The most valid point against Loopdan that I however share is indeed #125. I must admit I was a bit shocked when I read that, I mean really not even a slight scum read as IC? Didn't helped, that the definition of sheeping sounds scummy as hell for me.

My impression on Munchmellow improved greatly with her recent posts. I can relate to most of her points (besides PvtUrist and Elements, but with the latter I guess for now I am the only one in this regard anyway) and I like how she is now raising the pressure on Thespio, especially since Thespio's reaction was rather weak after her vote.

You didnt really answer my question, its hard to engage with active players, the people who have been active as i said seem to be town, you really like to play that line of not being here but pushing fault onto someone without much cause.

However don't you think that there should be some merit in challenging the active players? It's basically the best thing to get the game started instead of waiting for an inactive player showing up. Especially because you can never be sure about other players, even if they seem more like town. Loopdan is kind of my personal example for that, it's a rollercoaster at the moment.

[muh316]

@all reads on Thespio? Namely his page 2/3 fluff and #84 scum slip.

I don't see it as a scum slip. It just looks like you're reaching too hard on that one.

I think that town doesn't have to go there to be townie, so I kind of see scum-agenda in this. And what does that even mean - that he would selfhammer if he would be L-1 on deadline and no one else to hammer?

I too find the sacrificial hero of the town story pretty annoying. But in my experience it's usually a town player that says it because if scum would say this and not follow through, that would be a clear scum-tell.

@Thespio, why haven't you removed your vote on MDB? That vote/pressure is not going anywhere.

Whenever a player replaces in, it's always bad news for scum because that player can approach the game from a different perspective than the current players. I think that we didn't really take a look at Loopdan because he was driving the game in the beginning. But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.
VOTE: Loopdan

[muh316]

VOTE: MissDeadbeat

Thespio's lone vote isn't likely to mean much, but he's right. Her level of activity is unacceptable.

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

There's only about 15 hours between these two posts. If you were trying to put pressure on MDB, surely you would need to keep a solid vote.

[Loopdan]

I'll give a few points refuting Enter's case, but I really don't want to start dueling wall posts. Nobody wants to have to read through that and it can end up overwhelming the game. So in place of massive posts back and forth, I'll make a couple points and then leave it up to the other players to follow-up if they have questions or need clarification.

@Enter - TvT was referencing Loopdan vs. Skellen. Sorry you wasted so many words but you need to reread those interactions.

That's my point, dude. YOU ARE loopdan. Thespio says "I think this is TvT" referencing you and skellen. And you say "I agree"

My point is: glad to know you're town.

TvT means "Town versus Town." I think it's just really very obvious that I was saying I think Skellen is likely town.

And the thing about Thespio doesn't matter. You said:

So this implies you are TRing Thespio. Can you explain why that is? Not saying I disagree, just curious about your thinking.

So you're either asking for why are they townreading Thespio (who you JUST scumread) or why are they townreading you (which you should agree with anyways).

Again, the TvT thing was about Skellen. Again, I never said I scumread Thespio.

And I said that you changed your vote "LIKE" six times. FOUR on six pages is STILL ridiculous, considering especially how d1 went over and the last day. Stop trying to hide behind technicalities.

Stop misrepresenting my play.

1. Four votes on six pages is

not

ridiculous, especially at the start of the game. For you to use this as part of your case is absurd.
2. I'm not going to argue with you over whether four is "like six," but the way you just doubled-down on using this as proof that I'm scum seems indicative of how you are trying to force a case on me rather than develop a genuine read.

So, as I said, (and you accuse me of not reading closely), you saying you don't like it and not putting your vote on him is wrong.

I would feel your constant vote change is MORE acceptable if you had maybe put your vote on him here, because this is one of THE ONLY TIMES IN THE GAME where you give reasoning for thinking someone might be scum. ACTUALLY THE CLOSEST YOU'VE GOT TO A SCUM READ and your vote doesn't change to him? WHY?

So this is the only insightful thing Enter has said about my play, so I'll be glad to explain it. I liked Thespio's entrance to the game and didn't have any problems with him until that one post talking about no-lynch. Do you know how often town players make scummy sounding posts? I don't vote every single time I see one, sorry. Especially not with a newer player who has, let's just say it, kinda an odd style. And I don't think voting Thespio there would have helped me sort alignment when we had already established a conversational rapport. 76 is the post in question here. If anybody wants to see my train of thought, go back and check my next few posts after that.

Arg. This post is already too long.

[Loopdan]

Just so we are clear: Enter is trying to sell these three posts...

Spoiler: where I sheep my strongest TR and THEN encourage town to get more active while taking the blame for being lazy myself

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

....as

WHY are you SHEEPING TOWN after asking town to scumhunt and voting for a LURKER when you just said you think this is weird/ you don't like it. You told another player to be free w/ their vote (IIRC) and yet your vote (ha, i guess it's free) has been on four different players for some of the dumbest reasons I've ever seen.

[Loopdan]

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

[Loopdan]

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

[Loopdan]

But Enter's recent analysis is pretty spot on.

ORLY? Please elaborate.

[Enter]

Stop misrepresenting my play.

1. Four votes on six pages is

not

ridiculous, especially at the start of the game. For you to use this as part of your case is absurd.
2. I'm not going to argue with you over whether four is "like six," but the way you just doubled-down on using this as proof that I'm scum seems indicative of how you are trying to force a case on me rather than develop a genuine read.

Lol. If you think your four votes aren't ridiculous, that's you. The way you voted was dumb. The way you haven't offered a reason for anything is dumb. The way you just say "misrep" and other big words to look smart when we both know I'm not misrepping anything is dumb. For you to take the fact that I said you used four votes in six pages as ridiculous and just IGNORED the part about how you haven't offered a good reason for any of them is dumb. The fact that you regularly ask for people to go in depth and explain and the only "explaining' you've done is point out that MS has a wiki and you're capable of using it in a string of eight posts (which is beyond ridiculous) is dumb. The fact that you keep ignoring and failing to quote large important parts of my posts and cherry picking and taking the parts you want to address out of their context is dumb. The fact that you do all of this while accusing ME of misrepping is dumb.

I could go on and on.
Your play is ridiculously suboptimal for town and you have no excuse as an IC to have NO READS on page six and be SHEEPING your townread. In regular games do you know how fast you get lynched for that? It's possible mafia has changed since I played a while ago, but sheeping is pretty much always looked down upon and VERY RARELY acceptable. I have personally NEVER seen an acceptable reason to sheep and the fact that you call yourself out on it is BAFFLING to me.

There is no way in my mind that I can justify you being town.

Let's pretend you are town for a second. Why are you playing defensive as crap right here? PLEASE OMGUS MORE. You're making literally every newbie mistake if you are town (which I do not believe in the slightest). If you were town as an even somewhat seasoned mafia player, you would at the VERY LEAST try to prove your town when you got called out for sheeping and AT LEAST post a reads list with one or two reasons.

The fact that you have as many posts as you do w/ so little content is insane.

So this is the only insightful thing Enter has said about my play, so I'll be glad to explain it. I liked Thespio's entrance to the game and didn't have any problems with him until that one post talking about no-lynch. Do you know how often town players make scummy sounding posts? I don't vote every single time I see one, sorry. Especially not with a newer player who has, let's just say it, kinda an odd style. And I don't think voting Thespio there would have helped me sort alignment when we had already established a conversational rapport. 76 is the post in question here. If anybody wants to see my train of thought, go back and check my next few posts after that.

This is an excuse. Also stop only quoting one or two of my points and then saying "THIS IS THE ONLY THING ENTER IS SAYING. LOOK AT THIS GUYS, DON'T ACTUALLY READ HIS POST."

Whatever. Let me get this straight though.

You are SCARED (in the first four pages of the game) of putting your vote someone who MIGHT BE TOWN. Because town sometimes makes scummy posts? You see someone post something that pings you as off, and you don't investigate? You just say "hmm, this pings me as off" and then follow-up to townread him almost immediately after? In a game where you don't have ANY SCUM READS you just continuously justify your lack of a vote on someone who posted something that looked scummy to you because they MIGHT BE TOWN. You are currently voting someone you DO NOT HAVE A SCUM READ ON, but you wouldn't vote for someone that looked scummy to you because they MIGHT BE TOWN? What happened to scumhunting and pushing your reads? How did you make that AWFUL vote flip in RVS after accusing elements of making a bad vote flip and yet you still won't flip your vote to the ONE PLAYER that you scumread. How is this logical in any form or fashion? I fail to follow any towny train of thought coming from this play. Your post here sounds more like you're defending Thespio as town than it does that you're defending your thought process.

And for people who want to meta me (which I recommend against, it's very rarely useful, at least for me) my other usernames are Tr1ckster and Extrapolated Eagle.

[Enter]

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

Yes, it is. Because you're not using your vote when you see someone scummy, you're just sheeping your town reads. What even is that?

How do you have a standard for someone else you can't maintain yourself?

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

This is OMGUS and you know it. Post a reads list please. Give at least one solid reason for at least three of them. I know it's been hard for you to find a reason to vote someone this game that wasn't "RVS" or "isn't playing right now" but I need you to pull through for me. I honestly don't care too much what the reason even is, make something up. I'm just gonna look at it closely when you flip scum.

And let's be clear on the four votes thing. The four votes is ridiculous not in and of itself, stop saying that's why I'm saying it's ridiculous. You're taking me out of context and that's absurd. Please address why you thought it was a great idea to flip your vote in RVS right after calling out elements for doing so. Please explain why you thought it was smart to flip your vote right after applying a "pressure" vote to the only lurker in the game.

And stop getting angry at me cuz I won't let you have control back. You and Thespio drove the game into silence by townreading everyone and forgiving everything you saw as "that player MIGHT BE TOWN" (you did this with Skellen, too) and then you blamed the lurkers for it(which is a p common newbie scum tactic from what I've seen, I might add). You won't push anyone for reads, you want to sit so squarely on the fence that it's beginning to dig a hole into your stomach.

[Enter]

Just so we are clear: Enter is trying to sell these three posts...

Spoiler: where I sheep my strongest TR and THEN encourage town to get more active while taking the blame for being lazy myself

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

So why am I TRing Skellen? His progression of his read on me makes way more sense coming from town than scum. Most importantly, he went back and re-read interactions and changed his thinking based on that. In a short, slow game like this do you know who goes back and re-reads and then hands out a townread on the IC? Town players who are frustrated that nothing is happening. Scum prefers for the game stalls out because it maintains their information advantage.

So yeah, Skellen is either town or is a helluva scum player for this being his first game.

This is a game of information.
Scum starts with an information advantage.
Town starts with a time advantage (manifested by their larger team).

Town wins if they gain equity in information before they lose their time advantage.

Town only wins if they gain information (or get lucky).

So start asking questions. Admit if you don't get something. Speak up when something looks off. Stop worrying about if it makes you look "scummy". Vote your scumreads. Tell your townreads that you TR them (sometimes this is counterproductive later, but for day1 don't hold back).

This slow game-state is as much my fault as anyone's. I've been a bit pre-occupied with RL. I'll do my best to re-read and post some thoughts on all players in the morning.

....as

WHY are you SHEEPING TOWN after asking town to scumhunt and voting for a LURKER when you just said you think this is weird/ you don't like it. You told another player to be free w/ their vote (IIRC) and yet your vote (ha, i guess it's free) has been on four different players for some of the dumbest reasons I've ever seen.

Yes. I am saying that. Just because you say
"oh hey, I'm lazy" or "oh hey, I'm scummy" doesn't excuse lazy/scummy play. It still means you're scum.
When you tell town to be looking for scum, YOU SHOULD BE DOING SO YOURSELF.

SET. AN. EXAMPLE. Sheeping is the utmost paragon example of laziness/lack of scumhunting in a mafia game. I challenge you to try to find a better example.

And no, challenging me on "free with vote" instead of "use your vote" to me it means the same thing. I don't care. Either way YOU ARE NOT USING YOUR VOTE.
TWO EXAMPLES in the posts you've quoted and the arguments you've made of holding town to a standard you yourself do not meet. => You do not meet the standard for town. => You are not town.

[Enter]

Ugh. I hate myself for doing this, but every time I go to go back to "view my posts" again I see another one of these inane comments. I guess I'll just close the tab after this one.

And I told Skellen to

use

her vote. Which is exactly what you are saying I am scum for, btw.

Stop taking my words out of context. I'm saying you're scum for telling her to use your vote and you're not using yours.
[quote="In post 163, Loopdan"\]Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard[/quote]
Just out of curiosity:

Define tunneling/confbias for me and then explain how I, having just Entered (haha) the game thread, have become convinced by my own argument that I have not yet made?
Tunneling is an even worse excuse because you're implying that I've been seeing you as scum for a while (as far as the connotation is concerned).

Please at least call me scum and don't sit on the fence about it if you think I'm bad. (even though I walked in the game thread and all of a sudden we have two viable wagons and both of them are on scum)

[Enter]

I know, I'm the worst.

Alright, so Town, to answer the potential question of "Why is Loopdan making silly excuses that don't make sense in order to try and call Enter town while simultaneously implying he might be scum?" like in this post:

I honestly thought Enter was probably town with that entrance, but now he's completely failed to re-evaluate prior positions and is repeating the same bad arguments. He does not look like he is trying to sort a player.

Enter is either:
1. Badtown tunneling and confbiasing hard
2. Scum trying to manufacture a case

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you play as town and scum.

Really, there's two answers to that question:

1. He just saw a couple other players call me town, and he doesn't want to look weird by pushing me for the rest of the day and then last minute flipping so that he can hammer someone else, because that would look weird for him, so he's hoping someone else will call me scum so he can see me as a viable lynch, at which point he will likely place his vote on me (and possibly do it while "sheeping" someone else so he doesn't take responsibility for it )
2. Scum are often cautious about pushing for lynches on town. Often, I've found, they prefer to sit in the middle of the wagon, so no one points a finger at them when the player flips GREEN. So again, he's waiting for someone else to push on me so that he can follow-up and not have to take responsibility.

The fact that his vote is still on PvtUrist (who he said he didn't have a scumread on) and not on me (who he just said is Bad Town or Scum) is ridiculous.

[Loopdan]

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you pla

[Enter]

@Enter-- You said you've played on this site before. Please share your prior usernames so we can look into how you pla

Try reading my posts all the way through. I answered your question.

[Loopdan]

never mind I just saw it.

[Loopdan]

Yeah I think we are done here, Enter. You haven't even asked me any questions, indicating you have zero interest in actually sorting my alignment. Like I said before, you are either confbiasing or scum. I'm not going to get sucked into your never-ending tunnel of misrepresentations and outright lies (see 161 for just one example).

If other players think Enter has some valid points and want to point those out to me I'll be glad to engage and answer as best I can. As far as I can tell Enter's case on me is that I didn't do enough to advance the game-state (which I already admitted before he showed up) and that I placed 6 (oops I mean 4) votes without posting huge walls of explanation.

After I'm done reading some of Enter's prior games I'll come back with (hopefully) a better stance on Badtown v Scum.

[Skellen]

Your play is ridiculously suboptimal for town and you have no excuse as an IC to have NO READS on page six and be SHEEPING your townread. In regular games do you know how fast you get lynched for that? It's possible mafia has changed since I played a while ago, but sheeping is pretty much always looked down upon and VERY RARELY acceptable. I have personally NEVER seen an acceptable reason to sheep and the fact that you call yourself out on it is BAFFLING to me.

Everything else aside, since there is much back and forth between you two, I want to pick up on this part, because I want to clarify some doubts in the Loopdan case. While his vote in #125 is bad, no matter how you look at it, it's exact the same thing that feels so strange. I mean if we assume scum-Loopdan, that vote post is basically a suicide post, it looks like a desparate move for no reason. Why do you think he would do something like that as scum, that has that much backfire potential at this state of the game? It's the unnecessity that's bugging me here. Of course it's also questionable why he would do so as town, but as scum it looks even more weird.

While I am addressing you: What makes you so certainly think in #135 that PvtUrist is town? Just the suspicion of Thespio?

@Loopdan:
What I don't get in the whole debate with Enter: Why are you dancing around the issue of scumreads for what Enter already called you out? It's hard to buy that you don't have anything in the Day 1 phase of the game, where grasping at even the tiniest straws is legitimately enough.

That aside after rereading Thespio's ISO I feel kind of bad, that I got distracted by looking at the "middle-active" players (doesn't mean I am letting them go though) that I didn't even notice that he had literally zero scumreads so far. Ignoring RVS of course. Not good. Guess it will depend on his defence after getting three votes how bad it actually is or if he can redeem himself. I am particularly interested on what he is thinking about Enter's case against Loopdan.