Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Nauci]

Pagetop goodness

Vote Count 1.6

PvtUrist (3) -

Elements

11

,

Skellen 118

,

Loopdan 125

,

Thespio 181

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

Loopdan (2) -

Enter 130

,

muh316 158

UNVOTE/Not Voting (1) -

Skellen

5

,

PvtUrist

5

,

Munchmellow

5

,

Elements

5

,

MissDeadbeat 5

,

Enter

5

,

muh316

5

,

Thespio

5

,

Loopdan

5

,

muh316

101

With 9 players alive, it takes 5 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 1 ends in (expired on 2019-01-21 05:00:00).

Mod Notes

MagikHorse replaces MissDeadbeat/AbyssalLord.

[Enter]

Alright. So I've been pretty back and forth on my read for Thespio, which is why I've been really rather hoping to get a Loopdan lynch today so we can re-examine Thespio tomorrow.

The biggest part causing me to reconsider my scum read on him is how quickly the wagon formed. One thing that is often good to look at in mafia games is who is pushing what wagon and when. Day 1 wagons are often really quite hard to work up to a lynch, especially w/o scum. This is one reason why very often townies are lynched on day 1; scum controls a little over 20% of the vote and they both know who they want lynched - anyone but them. The Thespio wagon built pretty quickly after my arrival, which is somewhat surprising, since I didn't really push him at all. My thought is that town was looking for someone to push that wasn't a lurker, but was under the influence of loopdan/Thespio => didn't really want to try to solo push one of them against the crowd. So, considering Thespio is at a potential L-1 right now, let's look at who's on this wagon:

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

And for the sake of analysis, we'll consider Thespio's 193 as a self-vote.

Munchmellow doesn't have very many posts this game, but the ones she does have, I follow and share a thought process with. She suspects Loopdan in 70, reexamines her read and explains why Thespio feels off in 137 (which I agree with, BTW, the whole "self -vote" thing is a level of AtE that shouldn't be accomplished by anyone other than a newbie, IMO)
[BTW, Thespio, if you're reading this and you still think for some reason that Loopdan's 92 was serious, you should notice that Munchmellow responds as if he's asking about you and he still doesn't notice, which should trigger the thought in you that it's pretty apparent loopdan is asking questions to ask questions and has nothing he's looking for] Anyways. Munchmellow posts reads in 140 - which I agree with, and it makes me happy that it's a pretty full reads list. I feel pretty solid on Munchmellow for town.

Elements follows Munchmellow. ISO-ing him and one could easily see how you might think you're ISO-ing the same person. Again, I agree with his thoughts, his reservations on the whole self-vote thing, his questioning of double-bussing. I like him for town.

PvtUrist - This one is weird, because it does still feel, in the slightest way, a bit weird to me that he has maintained his vote on Thespio since game start. But. Here's why I think he's town: He was the first player to drop reads. Loopdan's vote on him is super weird and he avoids responsibility for his PvtUrist vote (which loopdan would WANT responsibility for PvtUrist flip if he was bussing his buddy). When PvtUrist did drop those questions in 112, they were pretty decent questions and indicate some small amount of town - motivation. Yes, my town read on him is weak. No, it doesn't matter, because my scum read on Loopdan is ridiculously strong, and there isn't two scum in [PvtUrist, Loopdan]

Finally, Thespio:
I disagree with the idea of lynching yourself. Let's start there. Yes I was ok with it when I started mafia, but I've grown and changed a lot, I think. You have a role-pm from the mod that says you're town. That is the largest confirmation you will get and the first piece to the logic puzzle that is mafia. (it's a little more than a logic puzzle, but bear with me). The only time you should ever be ok with yourself being lynched is never, IMO, because you should always be doing your best to be the largest asset to town when you're alive, and when you're dead, you have no control over the game. I have seen so many times where it looks like town has won because everything is set up perfectly and some charming mafia goon wins over the heart of the guy heading off his lynch and all of a sudden town loses in a 3p LyLo. Sure, at the end of day yesterday, everyone agreed that if you self-voted then they would lynch the mafia goon you were so certain should die if you flipped town, but people change. People's read change. A lot. Especially over night. However, I will not lynch based solely off the fact that people are willing to play sub-optimal town games in this way, because I'm pretty sure there are mafia players that will disagree with me on the self-vote being suboptimal. Whatever.

Let's get to the next issue: Self-vote threats: This is an entirely different matter because it is the lowest of low AtE. While talk of lynching yourself can be considered mafia theory, threatening to self-vote is a spastic response of emotion that belongs nowhere except every once in a while, from a newbie, in a newbie game. Then the threat should be squashed by the IC and everyone should move on with their lives, because it's bad. It is very bad. I view self-votes in mafia games like I view threats to wreck your own car because it would get attention. Will I lynch for it? Not always. Did it make me think he was almost definitely scum for a moment? Yes. This is one of the very few places that meta-ing someone does come in handy for me. When I see someone make dumb newbie mistakes like this, I go back and look at past games and see if they make the same mistakes in those games as town. So, let's see what we can find:

In Newbie 1640, Post 190 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

This helps no one. if you honestly got him lynched and he was town, then its likely a scum driven lynch and thus if you are town you will have scum backing as well. Ultimately you could both be town.

Indicating an understanding that self-flipping and threats of such are rarely reasonable.

And in Newbie 1625, Post 982 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

There kill last night is basically WIFOM. I think its odd you countered immediately... But I also think Jorams timely absence is quite mysterious too... So im lookin @ Jorams post about being investigated a possible scum slip. I also think Aku is lurking pretty badly... Anyone have any think aku might have used Bulba as a train after we all were questioning him?

Again indicating how much WIFOM surrounds a kill. Sure, he's talking about a night kill here, but the point is across that once you're dead, you're not as effective and it is so easy to WIFOM everything out. Even if PvtUrist was scum, day 2 when we tried to lynch him, he would start explaining everything for Thespio and Thespio wouldn't be there to correct him. I've seen it so much, and Thespio seems to understand this, too, which makes me think he's prolly scum, using AtE.

Up until this point, I had been doubting my read on Thespio, but the threats to self-vote is so bad and talk of self-lynch over no-lynch is so bad, I don't think I can fathom him flipping town.

In addition he had some weird interactions at beginning of day, his teasing flip w/ his read on elements was weird, and his pushing of lurkers is bad. I also don't like how he dismissed the Skellen v Loopdan as TvT and Loopdan chimed in. Anyways, I'm super distracted right now, so I will get back to this later, but as of right now, I feel pretty solid on my scum read on Thespio.

[Thespio]

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

[Enter]

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

That's fair, I have no intent of hammering while there's valid discussion going on.

[Enter]

If you legitimately read and respond and try to understand where I'm coming from on my read of you, I'll do my best to continue to do the same for you.

[Thespio]

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

That's fair, I have no intent of hammering while there's valid discussion going on.

Also I want to apologize for antagonizing you just reading through this I think you are town (if you read my recent games you will see me do it alot), Pvts still is my main scum read, I understand your reasoning (if im scum and he started on me me why would he leave) I would like more from him. After this I would say i TR you. ill post a reply to all of it in about 2 hours.

[Enter]

@Enter, I will reply later today, I genuinely appreciate an actual well written read like what you gave, the one sentence ones like what pvt gave kill me.

That's fair, I have no intent of hammering while there's valid discussion going on.

Also I want to apologize for antagonizing you just reading through this I think you are town (if you read my recent games you will see me do it alot), Pvts still is my main scum read, I understand your reasoning (if im scum and he started on me me why would he leave) I would like more from him. After this I would say i TR you. ill post a reply to all of it in about 2 hours.

Yeah sure. It's mafia, dude, I understand. What happens in game, stays in game. I'm a bit antagonistic myself, but with purpose. I understand you wanting to see more from him, I wouldn't mind more myself. I do see town motivation in a few of his posts, however, and I don't see that in Loopdan, and due to Loopdan's (I think it was 125?) I don't think PvtUrist and Loopdan can both be scum => PvtUrist is town.

[Munchmellow]

Ok, first thing first - @Enter, I agree with a lot of things that you wrote, but this ginormous walls just seem a bit too much. Reading through those feels like being back at med school studying pathology thinking - do I really have to read all of these or could I just skip some stuff. I read it once and will probably not reread it and Thespio got one thing right - you are stating same thing multiple times.
And if I counted correctly, Thespio is still at L-2, so you can't hammer until you get someone else on wagon. And why the rush. There is one player that we didn't even hear from and we are only half through D1. I don't agree that the game is basically solved.

Now, @Thespio, for someome who says that can't read me due to my inactivity you could at least answer my questions.

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

And I prefer quality to quantity, but I can post some fluff if that will help your readings.

And second thing - what is with all this self sacrificing and self-hammering stuff. I think self-hammering is anti-town. Why? Because as a Vanilla, you can only be 100% sure about one player's alignment - your own. So why would you hammer someone that is 100% town. I don't think that actually helps town.
So, another question - why did you offer to self-hammer?

[Enter]

So usually when the thread is moving really fast people are more likely to skim than actually read - this is especially true when I accuse people of being scum => I try to say the same thing multiple times because I want that point addressed and I feel it hasn't yet. A lot of the time people will pick what they want to respond to and then at a later time when things are calmed down, I will try and summarize my reads and give a solid TL;DR. I honestly feel like the worst part of my posts is that I post it as I think it almost -I have to otherwise I can't think through it or understand it like I'd like to. I've got a bad habit of explaining everything to everyone because that's how I ensure that it also makes sense to me. I guess I feel as if I'm incapable of examining my own thoughts unless I can see them in front of me or hear them in my discussion with someone else, and since the latter is not allowed in mafia games, I stick to the former. Once the thread has settled a bit, I'll try to get a more summarized version (the problem with mafia is that it's so easy to take something the wrong way or say someone means something they don't mean, so I feel like I have to provide context to everything. This is a particular flaw of mine, I apologize that I'm not good at transferring my thoughts like I should be.)

[Thespio]

Ok, first thing first - @Enter, I agree with a lot of things that you wrote, but this ginormous walls just seem a bit too much. Reading through those feels like being back at med school studying pathology thinking - do I really have to read all of these or could I just skip some stuff. I read it once and will probably not reread it and Thespio got one thing right - you are stating same thing multiple times.
And if I counted correctly, Thespio is still at L-2, so you can't hammer until you get someone else on wagon. And why the rush. There is one player that we didn't even hear from and we are only half through D1. I don't agree that the game is basically solved.

Now, @Thespio, for someome who says that can't read me due to my inactivity you could at least answer my questions.

Your concern is valid, engage with me, i would like to get a better read on you.

If you could lynch two people, who would they be (and leave MDb out of this, because she is obv not a lurking scum but is probably gonna be replaced so her inactivity is NAI).

Would you hammer your strongest townread, just to get a lynch D1?

And I prefer quality to quantity, but I can post some fluff if that will help your readings.

And second thing - what is with all this self sacrificing and self-hammering stuff. I think self-hammering is anti-town. Why? Because as a Vanilla, you can only be 100% sure about one player's alignment - your own. So why would you hammer someone that is 100% town. I don't think that actually helps town.
So, another question - why did you offer to self-hammer?

You have a little less then Enter so im going to start with you, I would lynch in order of what i provided last page, Pvt first.

Second, im glad you asked. The reason is Strategic, you are right, I only know my role. However, I win with town even if im dead, I solemnly believe the saying that if your name is front and center you will die, If I die and I state what I believe is best, then I flip town, all town now knows what a proven townie thinks for the future. It lets me make a definite impact.

Stats wise having a townie die D1 means we go into D2 with 2/8 people being scum, so theres a 1/4 chance we get scum. I leave my notes, tell you its Pvt (which it is) then we move to a 1/7 situation where hopefully you can use day2 to mine for the other scum. Im reading over Enters post and he makes a few good points for him, I just cant see the fight from earlier being fake, but ill get into that when i reply to enters.

Thats why, I feel its a strategic move, if i dont die scum could leave me alive and just try to misslynch me d2 and we would have lost a more important day.

[Nauci]

Mod Notes

MagikHorse replaces MissDeadbeat/AbyssalLord. Please welcome him!

[Thespio]

Alright. So I've been pretty back and forth on my read for Thespio, which is why I've been really rather hoping to get a Loopdan lynch today so we can re-examine Thespio tomorrow.

The biggest part causing me to reconsider my scum read on him is how quickly the wagon formed. One thing that is often good to look at in mafia games is who is pushing what wagon and when. Day 1 wagons are often really quite hard to work up to a lynch, especially w/o scum. This is one reason why very often townies are lynched on day 1; scum controls a little over 20% of the vote and they both know who they want lynched - anyone but them. The Thespio wagon built pretty quickly after my arrival, which is somewhat surprising, since I didn't really push him at all. My thought is that town was looking for someone to push that wasn't a lurker, but was under the influence of loopdan/Thespio => didn't really want to try to solo push one of them against the crowd. So, considering Thespio is at a potential L-1 right now, let's look at who's on this wagon:

Thespio (3) -

PvtUrist 10

,

Munchmellow 140

,

Elements 149

And for the sake of analysis, we'll consider Thespio's 193 as a self-vote.

Ending it here to cut it up a little, I agree with the logic provided up to this point. I also agree its odd how fast my wagon built. I did explain the idea behind self voting here (post209)

Munchmellow doesn't have very many posts this game, but the ones she does have, I follow and share a thought process with. She suspects Loopdan in 70, reexamines her read and explains why Thespio feels off in 137 (which I agree with, BTW, the whole "self -vote" thing is a level of AtE that shouldn't be accomplished by anyone other than a newbie, IMO)
[BTW, Thespio, if you're reading this and you still think for some reason that Loopdan's 92 was serious, you should notice that Munchmellow responds as if he's asking about you and he still doesn't notice, which should trigger the thought in you that it's pretty apparent loopdan is asking questions to ask questions and has nothing he's looking for] Anyways. Munchmellow posts reads in 140 - which I agree with, and it makes me happy that it's a pretty full reads list. I feel pretty solid on Munchmellow for town.

I find this interesting, do you think Loopdan to some degree has aligned with me for favor? it does look like he defends me to some degree. I still want more, an active town is a happy town, but I lean town after reexamining them.

Elements follows Munchmellow. ISO-ing him and one could easily see how you might think you're ISO-ing the same person. Again, I agree with his thoughts, his reservations on the whole self-vote thing, his questioning of double-bussing. I like him for town.

Ive leaned town on him for a while, The reason I like loopdan is I read him town after his spat, it genuinely seemed TvT.

PvtUrist - This one is weird, because it does still feel, in the slightest way, a bit weird to me that he has maintained his vote on Thespio since game start. But. Here's why I think he's town: He was the first player to drop reads. Loopdan's vote on him is super weird and he avoids responsibility for his PvtUrist vote (which loopdan would WANT responsibility for PvtUrist flip if he was bussing his buddy). When PvtUrist did drop those questions in 112, they were pretty decent questions and indicate some small amount of town - motivation. Yes, my town read on him is weak. No, it doesn't matter, because my scum read on Loopdan is ridiculously strong, and there isn't two scum in [PvtUrist, Loopdan]

I disagree here, I dont think they are mutually exclusive as scum. Its possible they are simply distancing while avoiding contact. Pvts ISO puts loopdan as a town to null lean and beyond that avoids contact (IMO thats how scum ought to play, also what i look for when hunting partners) They stayed on me all game, which should be a red flag and it is for me. I understand you read him as town based on 112 but the question in reguards to me was based on him thinking me interacting with another player was a scum tell.

Finally, Thespio:
I disagree with the idea of lynching yourself. Let's start there. Yes I was ok with it when I started mafia, but I've grown and changed a lot, I think. You have a role-pm from the mod that says you're town. That is the largest confirmation you will get and the first piece to the logic puzzle that is mafia. (it's a little more than a logic puzzle, but bear with me). The only time you should ever be ok with yourself being lynched is never, IMO, because you should always be doing your best to be the largest asset to town when you're alive, and when you're dead, you have no control over the game. I have seen so many times where it looks like town has won because everything is set up perfectly and some charming mafia goon wins over the heart of the guy heading off his lynch and all of a sudden town loses in a 3p LyLo. Sure, at the end of day yesterday, everyone agreed that if you self-voted then they would lynch the mafia goon you were so certain should die if you flipped town, but people change. People's read change. A lot. Especially over night. However, I will not lynch based solely off the fact that people are willing to play sub-optimal town games in this way, because I'm pretty sure there are mafia players that will disagree with me on the self-vote being suboptimal. Whatever.

I disagree, i explained my logic, its the same as having a proven town, tomorrow you kill Pvt, and its the same as any other outcome for today. we walk into an optimal d3 1-4 scum:town ratio

Let's get to the next issue: Self-vote threats: This is an entirely different matter because it is the lowest of low AtE. While talk of lynching yourself can be considered mafia theory, threatening to self-vote is a spastic response of emotion that belongs nowhere except every once in a while, from a newbie, in a newbie game. Then the threat should be squashed by the IC and everyone should move on with their lives, because it's bad. It is very bad. I view self-votes in mafia games like I view threats to wreck your own car because it would get attention. Will I lynch for it? Not always. Did it make me think he was almost definitely scum for a moment? Yes. This is one of the very few places that meta-ing someone does come in handy for me. When I see someone make dumb newbie mistakes like this, I go back and look at past games and see if they make the same mistakes in those games as town. So, let's see what we can find:

In Newbie 1640, Post 190 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

This helps no one. if you honestly got him lynched and he was town, then its likely a scum driven lynch and thus if you are town you will have scum backing as well. Ultimately you could both be town.

Indicating an understanding that self-flipping and threats of such are rarely reasonable.

And in Newbie 1625, Post 982 viewtopic.php?p=7160867#p7160867, Thespio says:

There kill last night is basically WIFOM. I think its odd you countered immediately... But I also think Jorams timely absence is quite mysterious too... So im lookin @ Jorams post about being investigated a possible scum slip. I also think Aku is lurking pretty badly... Anyone have any think aku might have used Bulba as a train after we all were questioning him?

These games are from years ago, ive changed, i understand personal loss for general gain, I became a stockbroker, got a job with the govt, learning to play losses is important, and I didnt understand it then, read my more recent games.

Again indicating how much WIFOM surrounds a kill. Sure, he's talking about a night kill here, but the point is across that once you're dead, you're not as effective and it is so easy to WIFOM everything out. Even if PvtUrist was scum, day 2 when we tried to lynch him, he would start explaining everything for Thespio and Thespio wouldn't be there to correct him. I've seen it so much, and Thespio seems to understand this, too, which makes me think he's prolly scum, using AtE.

Same as before.

Up until this point, I had been doubting my read on Thespio, but the threats to self-vote is so bad and talk of self-lynch over no-lynch is so bad, I don't think I can fathom him flipping town.

In addition he had some weird interactions at beginning of day, his teasing flip w/ his read on elements was weird, and his pushing of lurkers is bad. I also don't like how he dismissed the Skellen v Loopdan as TvT and Loopdan chimed in. Anyways, I'm super distracted right now, so I will get back to this later, but as of right now, I feel pretty solid on my scum read on Thespio.

Look at it from my POV, I never proposed we lynch anyone with 1 post, i recommended we examine them, my post about priority of lynch was something i felt needed to be posted based on my last few games where newbies fight to avoid a lynch d1 because there is so little info. Out of place now that i look at it but well intended.

If i understand you dont hard read Pvt Town, but you hard scum read Loopdan.

@Loopdan, i would like to see a reply to this, your thoughts on these reads in general.
@enter, Where do you want to go from here? I understand your loopdan read, i would pref not to lynch, would you quickly go over Pvts ISO and let me know what urks and what pleases you?

[Thespio]

btw thats a *i would pref not to lynch loopdan^

[Enter]

I think I've said this before, but I'll say it again:

I understand distancing and bussing. I've played with people that exclusively bus. I've been scum when my partner said "it sucks to be you, but I exclusively bus day 1" (that was offsite)

This isn't that.

VOTE: PvtUrist

This is a sheep vote for Skellen. He's my only strong TR right now, and I don't have any real scumreads.

This is L-2.

IC note:

Wiki entry for Sheeping

He refuses responsibility for PvtUrist's flip. The big two reasons scum bus is for town!cred or to avoid getting scum!cred. He gets no town!cred if he takes no responsibility for his vote. He knows PvtUrist will flip town and he doesn't want to be looked at as a guy who's pushing the wagon.

These games are from years ago, ive changed, i understand personal loss for general gain, I became a stockbroker, got a job with the govt, learning to play losses is important, and I didnt understand it then, read my more recent games.

Anndd this is why I don't like meta-ing people. I still disagree with you, but as long as you're not disagreeing with yourself this isn't a point of contention and I really would rather not worry about it right now, because it's distracting.

As far as where we go from here, I want very strongly to lynch Loopdan today. I don't want to lynch you right now. I can try and re-summarize my loopdan argument, but I feel what you want are specifics, and if I give you specifics you'll just end up with a post wall that is larger than the sum of the ones I posted earlier, so I highly recommend you read that more carefully if/when you get the chance (if you haven't already)


===============================================

Some things I'd like you to examine, taken this is your reason for TRing Loopdan:

Ive leaned town on him for a while, The reason I like loopdan is I read him town after his spat, it genuinely seemed TvT.

1. After the spat, he's quick to call himself town (as well as the other person). He's so quick to avoid that turning into a real confrontation. If he really believed it was TvT, why didn't he say so sooner? His flip was awkward.
2. The whole spat was weird. Skellen called out Loopdan for doing dumb stuff, Loopdan got evasive and explained why he did the stuff he did (which is exactly what he told elements NOT to do only a few posts before).
3. Look at his 109 in contrast with his 54. He admits that pushing lurkers is dumb and then he pushes a lurker later.
4. Look at his 58 and 59 in contrast to his 92. He accidentally gives out a town read and then implies he will retcon it.

[Enter]

Oh also

I find this interesting, do you think Loopdan to some degree has aligned with me for favor? it does look like he defends me to some degree. I still want more, an active town is a happy town, but I lean town after reexamining them.

You two have really weird interactions. I do not like your interactions. I don't like how he was really willing to change his vote so quickly in RVS and from 109 to 125 but he wouldn't put his vote on you when he didn't like what you said.

[Thespio]

Im going to look into our interactions and get back to you, grabbing lunch.

[Thespio]

@enter, this is what I see, He doesnt ever directly address me but he does attempt to follow me to some degree. At first look it seems to be TR me but the vote on deadbeat is offputting He did seem hesitant to push lurkers and jumped on after stating he thought i was susp. If loopdan is scum who is his partner?


@ loopdan, why did you vote with me not against me when you thought i was being odd?

[Thespio]

The more I look at it the weirder i see loopdan, even the fight was a little off. I am not at the point where i feel like i would lynch, anyone care to provide more perspective?

[MagikHorse]

Greetings all. I'm at work right now and need to read the thread a bit deeper (especially regarding the Loopdan stuff going on), but here's a question to buy a little time for that so this slot isn't totally useless.

Enter, why do you think Loopdan's vote on Ptv isn't distancing/bussing? You seem to know exactly what that looks like, and I want to know exactly why you think its unlikely here.

[Enter]

Greetings all. I'm at work right now and need to read the thread a bit deeper (especially regarding the Loopdan stuff going on), but here's a question to buy a little time for that so this slot isn't totally useless.

Enter, why do you think Loopdan's vote on Ptv isn't distancing/bussing? You seem to know exactly what that looks like, and I want to know exactly why you think its unlikely here.

*deep breath*

Check out my 212, it's six posts above yours. Also my 201 says the same thing. If you have specific questions about that, feel free to ask.

@Thespio: I'm working on PoE as far as who Loopdan's partner is right now, I'm not ignoring you.

[Skellen]

Caught up and forgot already half of what I wanted to write down. Oh well.

First @Enter/Thespio regarding PvtUrist:

Since I am involved in that wagon my input to this. You were discussing a lot about the "what" in PvtUrist's case and here I am even not that much disagreeing with Enter, what PvtUrist said isn't necessarily bad aside from the this scum slip issue, I even thought his reason for voting Thespio that he brought up later is pretty good. But on the other hand it's not that difficult to come up with legit reads as scum during the first days without needing to make up too much bullshit yet.

What is bugging me in his case is the "how". He seems kind of reserved, does first his obligatory activity post with commenting on filler and just when he got negatively mentioned once by me he comes up with the basic formula with posting reads (that aren't really that interesting without any details) and throwing in 1-3 questions and bye. Half of these addressed at me for whatever reason, I even asked why but he avoided answering of course. I had at the back of my mind that it seemed like a defensive reaction which had no real reason imo. Later he confirmed his vote, but overall he is mostly fixated on Thespio for the whole game. There are no attempts to dig deeper with other players as if he doesn't care, he got his target anyway. He seems to me like a dutiful scum, who is not doing more than he has to. It doesn't help, that Elements said in his read, that this behaviour resembles his scum play from a former game (however here I can just blindly trust as I don't have the time to read other games, but there is no denial by PvtUrist anyway).

Making a cut here to avoid wall of text.

[Enter]

Just taking a moment in the middle of my searching for Loopdan's partner to point out that this moderator is off the charts great. The vote count and vote record on page 1 with links is game changing. This is my nomination for moderator of the year, you can mark me in the record right here and now folks.

@Skellen - I'll agree that PvtUrist is lurker-y. The thing with lurkers is that scum!lurking often looks like town!lurking from what I've seen. Your read seems like you're applying your thoughts to his absence, and while I agree with that process, I would ask you this: Considering cases against Loopdan and PvtUrist, which appears scummier to you, and why? If you townread Loopdan, please explain in depth. I understand that PvtUrist doesn't look like an example of town, but from my perspective it looks like you're projecting your own reasoning on his absence (which isn't necessarily wrong, it just might sway your read further towards scum or town than you wanted to.) Since most of my points against Loopdan are relatively concrete (as far as I'm aware), and I doubt they could be scum together, I doubt PvtUrist is scum. I would really like to hear your opinions on this.

[Thespio]

Just taking a moment in the middle of my searching for Loopdan's partner to point out that this moderator is off the charts great. The vote count and vote record on page 1 with links is game changing. This is my nomination for moderator of the year, you can mark me in the record right here and now folks.

I second this!

[Thespio]

@Enter, I have a question for you, say we flip Loopdan and hes town, whats your next course of action?

[Skellen]

Got too distracted so I am keeping it short. Since he is the other hot topic in the vote count at the moment it's next to Thespio. Regarding him I am a little bit indecisive. Rethinking his play yesterday made him suspicious in my eyes, his defence is a mixed bag for me now. I think his reads seem comprehensible from his point of view, but then right after that he defends Loopdan twice with pitting him against PvtUrist. Ugh. Why even doing someone else's job? I think Loopdan did even the same with Thespio? If these two are the scum team it's more turning into a slapstick team. This is actually fuel for Enter's original scumteam Loopdan/Thespio theory, although it's becoming so obvious that I just can't believe it can be that easy.

Otherwise his defence is rather predictable, I mean I share his suspicion of PvtUrist, but I was hoping his opinion of Loopdan would be a little bit more ambitious as I kind of hinted yesterday. However now his opinion seems to change, I am not sure how to interpret that. Either he is really questioning him more or it's the last effort to burn some bridges between him and Loopdan, although I might think it's almost too late for that. Guess it will also depends now too what Loopdan's next move is and where Thespio's new read is leading to.