Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Elements]

Why is the current game-state detrimental to town?

At the point at which I posted the controversial rage induced post all the was really going on was people telling enter he was rehashing everything he'd said, followed by enter said they weren't followed by people saying he was.... you get the idea. Loop said they would post reads after an intent to hammer was made, then didn't really give anything for a while. More on that during my Loopdan spiel. All that was happening was people getting more and more annoyed at the game until someone, me, snapped. What I was hoping for was someone to agree with me and say "ok yes this day isn't going anywhere anymore" and to have hammered Loop. Due to a number of things including Pvt's replacement being searched for this didn't happen, instead we now have an actual beneficial discussion going on.

[Elements]

Why will my lynch tell us the most information?

Given that it looks like either you or me are being lynched.
You flip scum: Enter is town, MagikHorse looks suspicious as hell, muh is in the clear, pvt/rce is a scum partner/in the clear depending on who you ask
You flip town: Enter no longer exisits on this plane of existance, Migikhorse looks good, muh in under serious scrutiny from a lot of people, ptv/rce reads will definitly change from whoever said you two could be a scum pairing

at the moment i so either you or me being lynched so here's me flipping in comparison:
I flip scum: Loop is town
I flip town: ...

@everyone i encorage you to add your thoughts on this matter

[Elements]

However I just noticed in your read about Munchmellow that it deviates from your opinion in #149 where you liked the reasoning behind her reads while now it's almost the opposite. Where does that come from? I kind of understood your reads like they were chronologically written, so this felt kind of off.

Upon revisiting everyone for the read breakdown i'm writing there are a lot of things which in hindsight i should have view differently and do currently view differently. It's quite hard trying to figure out why i town read someone right at the start of day one if since then im scum read them.
This will be much more prominent with my reads on Thespio, Enter and Loop. To answer your question Thespio, you are the big three because of how dynamic my reads on you three have been recently.

[RCEnigma]

at the moment i so either you or me being lynched so here's me flipping in comparison:
I flip scum: Loop is town
I flip town: ...

I feel things like this are why Elements is a wagon right now...

[RCEnigma]

I'm on 13-14, I'm not going to do the quote wall catchup I think I'm just going to read through with general thoughts on what sticks out for the sake of time/discussion.

[Elements]

at the moment i so either you or me being lynched so here's me flipping in comparison:
I flip scum: Loop is town
I flip town: ...

I feel things like this are why Elements is a wagon right now...

This is why i asked other people to add their thoughts, from what I can see no one gains anything from me flipping town

[RCEnigma]

No I mean the statement "If I flip Scum" should never come from your perspective if you're town. Since you know the outcome of your flip.

Statements like that are immediate red flags.

[Elements]

No I mean the statement "If I flip Scum" should never come from your perspective if you're town. Since you know the outcome of your flip.

Statements like that are immediate red flags.

I take it you'll have the same opinion on loopdan doing this in 330 as and when you get there

[Elements]

A bit of a preface before I continue:
My first game of forum mafia was what can only really be described as a train wreck for town. First few pages of posting someone said they didn't have an important role (it was role madness) so they were happy to be lynched instead of a no lynch. Another player (sum) didn't let this go through the whole of the day. Imaging the quantity of posting enter has done this game every real life day. You missed a day due to work or something, you came back to 7 pages of non-stop posting. It was a war of attrition that only one side was fighting. Someone else claimed jester which didn't help.
Anyway, to say that I was blinded in this game due to that would be an understatement. This is the best forum game I've played so far (out of 3 but you get the idea). Both from an enjoyment perspective and a learning perspective. Before this game, and for most of it too, I just sat back and watched the game unfold not really understanding the point of what people were saying about reads and scummy vote flipping. Just playing through the game never really re-reading people's ISOs or looking at things from different view points. Since my outburst I have done just that and my reads on these three will probably surprise you.

Thespio

Post 69, like with most people, set me on edge here. I'd seen it happen in my first game with disastrous outcomes -

Scum Lean

He continues by saying everyone who's active is town, talking about TvT arguments and such. This again gave me suspicions. I don't see why saying that is helpful to anyone except trying to get town to think you are more town. We have a jovial exchange about secret hitler, which i don't think anything can be gained from. Something someone said (I think it was Skellen but I can't seem to find the post) about him being active but slipping his way under the radar caught my eye. Upon further inspection this was true. Thespio was sliding through the game asking questions here and there that steered the discussion away from him, weather intentionally or not. -

Scum Read

Thespio's first read list in post 181 included him putting and L-1 on Pvt. Yes that is way of putting pressure on someone who is inactive but L-1 in a slow moving game with over 5 days to go is not something I like. There is a chance for an accidental hammer from inactive players (like myself at the time) who read his reasoning thinking "that's good stuff there, I also want to pressure Pvt" or even a lolhammer from mildly self destructive scum giving us a 200 post day one phase, aka no next to no information -

Scum Read

Enter joins and Thespio has a bit of a rant about him tunnelling loopdan and town reading pvt, understandable until we see that 15 posts later after calling Enter "toxicly bad" Thespio decides that one well written post qualifies him as a town read. Thespio goes from scum leaning to town read in the space of 12 posts and 3 and a half hours -

Scum Read

Looking back seems like possible team with Enter who at that time I had a town lean on. I should've thought about this a lot more at the time.
A bit later Thespio talks about the strategy behind self hammering, I see where he's coming from but I don't agree. Later on around the 230s in posts Thespio is now scum reading loopdan saying happy to put at L-1. This is where things get a bit mess on my side of the reads for Thespio, Loopdan and Enter. I know that when Enter joined I like the points he brought about loopdan into the game and town read him (enter). Loopdan giving up did help his case (scum loopdan). Then at some point I swapped to a Enter-Thespio scum team tunnelling loopdan to get a mislynch (enter tunnelling, Thespio keeping out of the light enough to not be considered too much but still slowing coming round to Enter's side). Reading through my ISO i'm not entierly sure where this happened. I think its around when MagikHorse entered and Loopdan started to pick up activity. Something i overlooked due to my blindness drawing comparisons to my first game. Some of the things I posted are very much written with my mind set that Thespio is scum to the point that i's forgotten all about loopdan's defeatist attitude earlier. This mindset of mine very much continued until after my snap and Thespio asking for my reads again. From there I've been re-reading everyone's ISO and realising where I was standing is not where I should've been standing.
Thespio was straight on my case when I snapped pointing out what an anti-town thing it was to do. This seems like a play from town or a Loopdan Scum mate. But I don't think that Loopdan and Thespio are the scum team. Re-reading and looking at Thespio from both a scum mindset and a town mindset I can only see the posibilities of Thespio being town or in a scum team with Enter (more on that later) -

Town Lean

I'm off to quidditch now, will do Enter and Loopdan when I get back, sorry for dragging this out for so long

[Loopdan]

@Elements - Would you vote muh? You say muh is suspicious if I flip town. And you say I'm town. You said one of you or me are being lynched today. Why not muh instead?

[Skellen]

@Elements - Would you vote muh? You say muh is suspicious if I flip town. And you say I'm town. You said one of you or me are being lynched today. Why not muh instead?

Well, he townread muh...

[Loopdan]

I'm aware of his town-lean on muh. I'm trying to work out the inconsistencies with it.

[Loopdan]

Like it's kinda obvious he's about to pivot to SRing me to justify his vote.

[MagikHorse]

It's almost funny to me how much of your play seems geared towards attacking me, but I guess that's because I've been a bit of a jerk, huh? I'm starting to wonder if you disagree with me only because you want to be right and see me be wrong, and not for any fact-based reason and that's why it always seems like when you respond to my posts you're responding to something I don't feel like I ever said. That makes a bit more sense than the speculation that you're just scum. And it would explain why you come across as intelligent and well-thought, but your posts to and about me seem so ill-informed - as if your desire is more to be right over me instead of finding scum.

To be honest with you, I wasn't trying to dig that you hadn't posted a reads list, I was trying to get at the fact that I still haven't gotten a satisfactory reads list from Loopdan, but oh well. I don't think that will ever happen. I'm really glad you're trying to help, though? I feel like the way we met, and the way I was so abrasive is what put you off.

Yes, you are very much being a jerk, both to me and Loopdan. Why else do you think I've been trying to interact with you as little as possible? Apparently saying "Stop interacting with me. Go away" several times hasn't been enough to drill this point home until now, and I'm saddened by the fact that it's taken you this long to figure it out.

Admittedly I do want to spite you with a Loopdan green flip, but it's because I think that's the one and only thing that will actually put your ego in check and make you actually start listening to differing opinions instead of merely calling then "ill-informed", thus improving you as a player for the coming days should you survive. Like, really, if you think I'm so intelligent why do you think I cannot think for myself? I can't be both intelligent and dumb at once, yet this seems to be what you're implying.

Also noting that once again you have flipped from raging at me to total calm (to seem like less of a bad person?), just like you did earlier to try and convince me to hammer Loopdan a day or two ago with your "I'm tired. Lynch Loopdan" speeches. Doesn't change much because you've already burned the bridge between us so badly that I never want to play with you again if you're legitimate town, so this sudden nicey-nice change does little to persuade me of anything.

[Skellen]

@Loopdan:
He already justified his vote kind of. Lynching you because he is aiming for the most information, which he outlined again in #751.

The point I was rather wondering about is that you basically asked him to do the same thing again, that was the cause for the wagon on him and for what you too voted him. With voting one of his townreads (not that I think, that muh is someone to townread at the moment), but please one of the other townreads.

[RCEnigma]

Ok so I'm on page 20, yes elements the IF I'm scum posts are still bad in any context. Loopdans question included. However I think he's town and I think it makes Thespio town if Loop is? Though I'm less sure on the Thespio part. This could change with the later posts and I would have to check back in with the latest vote counts but here goes.

I actually think Loopdans responses were reasonable, I don't know what the tone was when Enter joined the game but from his first few posts I assumed that read was going to persist and going forward all of his reads have revolved around the Loop scum angle.

Loop is correct in saying that Enters case was matter-of-fact from the start, I got the same. That's a pretty judgement and naturally you trust your judgement more than any other slot, understandable. However the later questions were indeed loaded or asked in a way that wasn't intended to sort, if that makes sense. Loop still obliged for the most part and honestly I don't blame him for trying to step back from it.

Now I'm phone posting so I probably won't go back to add quotes just yet. Around the 18-20 page mark Loop and Enter reignited their passionate...eh..quarrel? And Loop made some observations I agree with regarding the game state, specifically about scum involvement if Enter v Loop is TvT. This showed to me he is still trying to consider the game outside of himself and Enter. Also I would agree, at this point I townread both slots and the lack of slots attempting to pivot away from loop/enter points to inactive or uninvolved slots. Magik did try to get Enter to re evaluate which I really liked but no other slots outside of that stuck out to me.

Around this time I took notice of the wagons (Loop and Thespio) sitting at 4 and 3 votes respectively and then Loopdan voted Enter...Loopdan voted Enter. So this doesn't make sense to me as scum since Loop flipping red confirms Enter, scums play here has to be A.) To create wifom or B.) Setup a mislynch which he can't do voting Enter and the AtE doesn't do much in the way of wifom since it only centers on himself. Fmpov scum probably gets their partner onto the counterwagon there and lolhammers. The scum side of this is that if Loop is scum and his partner is already on Thespio's wagon then they won't be able to get the votes to lolhammer making Loops pool of possible partners (Elements, munch, pvturist). Fmpov only elements or munch but you get my point.

That's all the inactive slots, so even if you assume Scum!Loop is true his point about scum being in the inactive slots is true. All of the slots voting Thespio at this point.

This was a lot more to the point in my head but I post in a conscious stream as I'm thinking if that makes sense.

The Implications here are that regardless of Loops alignment there is 1 scum within elements or munch. I would throw Muh into that mix for independent reasons, I'm not sure if Muh/Elements or muh/Munch makes a lot of sense though. And if Loop is town I doubt Thespio is scum as the counterwagon with that line of thinking in mind.

[RCEnigma]

Sorry about the size, it's a lot to digest but I'm trying to condense 20 pages of content into something semi concise.

We are under 2 days till deadline and should be the time town is consolidating on a lynch.

[Loopdan]

@Skellen - I know what I'm asking him, and why I'm asking him. But you've done a good job throwning a wrench into it.

[Loopdan]

I don't really get why you thought that was a discussion you needed to jump into.

[MagikHorse]

Enigma, given how large this singular day is, I don't have any issues with it being a bit dense. It's bound to wind up that way with so much content to sort through unless you split it up into multiple posts.

Beyond that I like basically everything you just said, for as much as Enter or Muh is gonna try and shade me for saying it.

[MagikHorse]

*are, not is. Grammar mistakes happen.

[Enter]

It's almost funny to me how much of your play seems geared towards attacking me, but I guess that's because I've been a bit of a jerk, huh? I'm starting to wonder if you disagree with me only because you want to be right and see me be wrong, and not for any fact-based reason and that's why it always seems like when you respond to my posts you're responding to something I don't feel like I ever said. That makes a bit more sense than the speculation that you're just scum. And it would explain why you come across as intelligent and well-thought, but your posts to and about me seem so ill-informed - as if your desire is more to be right over me instead of finding scum.

To be honest with you, I wasn't trying to dig that you hadn't posted a reads list, I was trying to get at the fact that I still haven't gotten a satisfactory reads list from Loopdan, but oh well. I don't think that will ever happen. I'm really glad you're trying to help, though? I feel like the way we met, and the way I was so abrasive is what put you off.

Yes, you are very much being a jerk, both to me and Loopdan. Why else do you think I've been trying to interact with you as little as possible? Apparently saying "Stop interacting with me. Go away" several times hasn't been enough to drill this point home until now, and I'm saddened by the fact that it's taken you this long to figure it out.

Admittedly I do want to spite you with a Loopdan green flip, but it's because I think that's the one and only thing that will actually put your ego in check and make you actually start listening to differing opinions instead of merely calling then "ill-informed", thus improving you as a player for the coming days should you survive. Like, really, if you think I'm so intelligent why do you think I cannot think for myself? I can't be both intelligent and dumb at once, yet this seems to be what you're implying.

Also noting that once again you have flipped from raging at me to total calm (to seem like less of a bad person?), just like you did earlier to try and convince me to hammer Loopdan a day or two ago with your "I'm tired. Lynch Loopdan" speeches. Doesn't change much because you've already burned the bridge between us so badly that I never want to play with you again if you're legitimate town, so this sudden nicey-nice change does little to persuade me of anything.

You asking me to do things like try and show people (at first it was you, but then I realized that you're taking offense at the fact that I'm calling you out over listening to what I'm callling you out over it) should not be indicative of your feelings being hurt, because me saying that you're doing something wrong isn't me being a jerk. Me doing something in a way that is offensive could easily be me being a jerk. I have and pretty much always will call my friends out when they're screwed up. Allowing someone to live in a screwed up manner is meaner than telling them so.

I think you're capable but either biased or scum. Both of those explanations seem pretty viable to me. I've read your arguments and your failure to see and understand things I expect you to see and understand both imply that I'm right in this.

And let's make this clear: I want no bridge between myself and loopdan. I do not want to be aligned with that slot. There is nothing there that can even be skewed as protown, IMO. The fact that you're talking about you two as if you're the same slot is one of the larger reasons that I'm certain that you're either strongly biased in his favor or aligned with him.

The rapid switches in tone, BTW, should prove to you that I AM coming fresh to the game thread, because I'm constantly refreshing and loooking at this in a new way, which is why I can see things like you getting your feelings hurt. If you are town, please ACTUALLY LOOK and seriously consider what I've been saying -- and remember also that it wasn't myself that started attacking me or saying things like "player is badtown" or calling me names, if me being a jerk is that is preventing you from doing that.

[MagikHorse]

I think you're wrong on all counts besides the "Allowing someone to live in a screwed up manner is meaner than telling them so" line, which is exactly what I've been trying to do with you and your own inability to see or understand things (ironically the same thing that you accuse me of). In the end there will be no resolution here until he flips. Coming to me now accomplishes nothing besides stirring up trouble.

Leave me alone. You are not gaining anything by talking to me right now.

[Skellen]

I don't really get why you thought that was a discussion you needed to jump into.

He already took a position to a muh lynch in #549. I just realized it was even answering to your question already back then. That's why I thought it was a strange question as you should know what his stance is in this. Thus I took your question as an attempt to push him against muh, although you have already judged him anyway before he even posted his read on you, which looked at first glance arbitrarily.
I didn't consider the question however from the theoretical ankle as you might have meant it, my bad, this long day just tempts me to overthink everything.

[Enter]

I may not be gaining anything from you right now, but our interactions will still be here after I die tonight.

PEdit: which is why it should have ended pages ago. Please just post intent. The whole dragging things out to look town thing is dumb.