Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Enter]

I honestly don't understand how loopdan has managed to worm his way out from being no.1 lynch target

see what i mean about hard to get a day 1 scum lynch? if he wasn't scum, scum would gladly have hammered by now.

[Loopdan]

I think pre-flip associatives are usually pointless, especially day1. But you asked, so... If muh is scum I think you are the likely partner. I would also downgrade my lock-town read on Skellen to town-lean.

But I'm more interested in what you'd do if muh was a viable lynch candidate, given your TR on me (unless you plan on changing that TR with your upcoming reads post).

[Loopdan]

That last post was a reply to Elements

[Elements]

I just closed the tab with Loopdan's and Enter's read wall....

[Elements]

ill rewrite some but not a detailed early game and more on recent developments of my reads

[muh316]

Let's say Muh and I are both at L-1. You vote me there?

What information do you think we gain from your pov when muh flips in either circumstace?

The information we gain is that Loop managed to sneak his way past D1 and get a town player lynched for pushing his wagon.

I honestly don't understand how loopdan has managed to worm his way out from being no.1 lynch target

It's a really sneaky game he's played. He tried making the town feel bad for lynching him by playing the IC card and saying he was trying to make this a positive experience for all. Then he went to the sacrificial hero route by saying that at least we won't have to have any more claims. After gaining town sympathy, he's pushing a lynch on another player so he could survive D1.

The 20+ pages of D1 filler are Loop trying to get past D1, thus increasing the chances that scum wins.

Anyway, I don't post in the mornings. Will post more stuff in the evening when I have time. I just couldn't help but comment when I saw this.

[Loopdan]

^That is the towniest case that's been made against me, so you have that going for you. You make a good point that I said I'd take the lynch since I'm VT and I didn't want to risk PRs claiming, and now I've changed my mind. But in the last couple of pages the townbloc seems to be coalescing around some scum-reads.

Bottom line: If some combination of Magik, RCE, Thespio, Skellen, and Munch want to lynch you or Elements, I'm in. If they don't have confidence in either of you being scum and don't want to risk outing a PR claim, then I'll take the lynch, no complaints.

[Elements]

Enter

Early game entry looked good especially compared to the inactivity swamp. -

Town Lean

My blindness as stated before changed my mind as Enter's wall continued and loopdan stopped giving up -

Scum Read

This continued until recently when I've now been reading everything again and don't understand why Enter would, as scum, keep up such a facade for so long knowing Loopdan would flip town. So much effort has been put in for one town lynch, that might not even happen, that it isn't worth it -

Current Read -

Town Lean

Loopdan

I'm not going to bother with my reads from before I snapped because I was so blinded. Anywho -

Current Read -

Scum

Loopdan is the slipperiest, most greasy player I have ever experienced. Many of these things have been said before but I'll say them again. Throughout the game Loopdan has pretty much been the centre of attention. Multiple times they have been on the verge of lynching, always to somehow wriggle out of it. His defeatist way of thinking, especially

I'm going to leave this here and then let you guys lynch me.

Who does that? That is either 1) someone who has completely given up or 2) a way to guilt trap us into no lynching him. Given that since that time Loopdan has re entered the game I cannot believe the first option. Loopdan has been unbelievably manipulative this game and unbelievably unhelpful with any of his thoughts. I very much with Enter at this point. Loopdan is scum. Even his recent post have been avoiding the point. Post 797 like no shit sherlock. That is so unhelpful to anyone. Then 801 you're more interested in what I'd do, I'm saying I'll tell you when you tell me, something you've been doing all game all game yet barely giving any context to your reads when you rarely respond. I should've just hammered Loopdan earlier when I had the chance.
I agree with Enter at this point

Loopdan =

Scum

[Loopdan]

[Loopdan]

Who does that? That is either 1) someone who has completely given up or 2) a way to guilt trap us into no lynching him. Given that since that time Loopdan has re entered the game I cannot believe the first option.

Why can't you believe that a town player would give up when it looked hopeless and then be re-energized when the tide looks like it may be changing?

I think the real issue is that you and your partner were thrilled that Enter had tunneled me when he showed up, and the fact that pretty much everybody bought into it meant you wouldn't have to do much to get your day1 mislynch. And it was going to be so easy, that you could take some easy town-points by staying off the lynch and saying I was town. Then when I kept playing and producing content you were upset that the day was progressing and town was finding each other, and so you came in and said you wanted to lynch your TR.

And here we are.

[Elements]

Why can't you believe that a town player would give up when it looked hopeless and then be re-energized when the tide looks like it may be changing?

Because we still had a week to go for the day. You don't give up with a week to go

[Elements]

I think the real issue is that you and your partner were thrilled that Enter had tunneled me when he showed up

I'd say you don't even know how wrong you are, but you're scum so you do

[Loopdan]

In case anybody forgot, Elements has been pushing a Thespio/Enter Scum-team with me as their town victim for much of this game. In this phase of the game, he appears to be setting up a future mislynch day2 when I flip town.

We will call this the "Loopdan is Town" phase:

Spoiler: Loopdan is town

I am getting flashbacks to my first game where scum absolutely swamped the chat with basically the same points over and over again which totally discouraged anyone from even bothering to read most of it. This obviously makes me question Enter's alignment more and upon reading Thespio's iso i can definitely see the possibility of an Enter/Thespio scum team going on. At the start They had a bit of a bickering to distance themselves from each other but after a while this Thespio did a turn around and starts even emulating Enter's posts with lots of loopdan quotes and explinations why they're iffy posts. Most of his read changes on loopdan and Enter have been "upon re-reading" without rlly quoting anything or links to posts, which seems like a bit of a cop out when you're changing views on currently the biggest conflict in the game. I also don't like how many town drops? is that the right words? thespio has done e.g. "lynch me over no lynch" and "I will put him at L-1 Later but dont want to risk a LOLHammer" and "Also I want to apologize for antagonizing you just reading through this I think you are town (if you read my recent games you will see me do it alot)"
so yes Thespio is still my strongest scum read

As for loopdan, if they hadn't shown such a defietist attitude i might have town lean on them, but currently i don't feel enter has swayed me into thinking they're scum especially given my thoughts on them and thespiio being a team

I’ll seriously go concider a PVT and Enter team

The word consider leaves options open for scum!Thespio to take either stance on scum!Enter either bussing for town cred or "re-evalutaing" and finding Enter's tunnelling to be a "genuine town mishap". But the inclusion of Pvt gives scum!Thespio the possibilty of going doen the route of bussing but lynching Pvt instead to get a mislynch without it looking any more suspicious if he went after Enter and they flipped town. It also distances them form Enter after getting a town lynch with them he can seem less to blame by pushing the sheer volume of posts against loopdan enter made out there

My #1 scumread if Loopdan flips town is: Thespio
My #1 townread if Loopdan flips scum is: Enter

This is interesting, can you explain how you went from reading us as a team to reading us as polar opposites?

My thoughts are you two are scum team pushing on Loopdan, so if he flips town i will continue with that train of thought. But if loopdan flips scum that's me theory out the window and i highly doubt Enter would bus his scum partner day one so vigorously hence him being my biggest town read

Explain why Pvt isnt even on your radar? where is Loopdan?

I think Loopdan is town hence the you and enter scum team
For pvt, he is mush less active then he was when he was scum in my last game so i have a mild town lean.
But on the off chance loopdan flips scum i will have to re-think everything at which point pvt will quite possibly be a scum read

Enter's ISO

Upon looking though i found a maximum of 7 posts that didn't in some way relate to Loopdan; either pointing a finger saying he's scum, comparing how other people have played so far with him, quoting him or telling him to read properly and answer questions. Given the shear volume of post too, i don't see how this could be considered anything but tunnelling.
The other posts are somewhat nonchalant. The only one of real interest I found said something like "scum don't tend to tunnel or push town day one so they don't take responsibility for the GREEN flip" Which, taken from the Enter is scum view, could be him covering his back if loopdan flips green.

If loopdan flips scum i and more than happy to bow down to the all knowing power of Enter

The arguing between Loop and Enter. Thought this was clear enough from context.

Just double checking. I think it's either Enter scum tunnelling to get a mislynch, TvT, or Enter is some form of deity

The arguing between Loop and Enter. Thought this was clear enough from context.

Just double checking. I think it's either Enter scum tunnelling to get a mislynch, TvT, or Enter is some form of deity

Did you just list every possible option XD, its either SvT, TvT, or TvS

that is a very good point, and rather ammusing.
The order is what i think the mos likely case it:
Scum tunnel ~ 85%
TvT ~ 10%
Enter = god ~ 5%

Then when town starting syncing up and making progress with the game (and my lynch maybe looked less of a slam-dunk) we entered the "Loopdan is town but I want to lynch him" phase. Here the the goal is to hurry up and end the day, even though Elements' TR is the one who is going to die.

Spoiler: Loopdan is town but I want to lynch him

I've only just realised we've still got up to 4 days left for day one. I thought we only had 1 and a half so it the loopdan lynch was almost inevitable, my bad

My concern isn't the questions, but people saying "X is scummy because of their interactions with Y" before we've flipped Y. It's pure speculation at this point. Speculation doesn't find scum, scumhunting does. It's a pretty good way to look like your scumhunting without saying anything actually helpful though.

To clear up my whole "if loopdan is scum pvt looks scummy" thing. this isn't because if their interactions it's it eliminate enter from my list of possible scum

This day has all but ended, I will hammer Loop unless someone obliterated this offer in the next few hours

This day has all but ended, I will hammer Loop unless someone obliterated this offer in the next few hours

Please state your opinion in muh316.

Frankly at this point I have to agree with Enter that the most beneficial lynch is you. I can't think of any reads that would change if muh was flipped, whereas you've been at the centre of discussion since Enter joined. My opinion of muh doesn't come into it.

Before you go all "he doesn't want to give his opinion of muh so they must be scum buddies" i don't have much of an imporession of muh. I can see why you could think he's scum but overall they're a slight town lean for me

ngl loopdan, you're starting to annoy me

ngl loopdan, you're starting to annoy me

OK. I'm here. What do you want to talk about?

I just want to lynch you so we can see your flip and get on with the game rather than these last few stagnant pages

post 562 seems utterly irrelevant to anything. Can people stop letting loopdan waste time and lynch him VOTE: loopdan

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

I would hammer a townread at deadline to avoid no lynch (not a strong townread). But to rush hammering a townread... I do find it suspicious.

At this point i feel like this day is currently being detrimental to town

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "i think loopdan is town, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

No big deal if you don't want to read all of those again, but the worst are...

I would hammer a townread at deadline to avoid no lynch (not a strong townread). But to rush hammering a townread... I do find it suspicious.

At this point i feel like this day is currently being detrimental to town

i don't think you're scum. I think you are town but the lynch that will give us the most information when you flip. The rest of the conversations going on are the same thing that's been going on for two days and all it's doing is making people angry with the game

WAIT, WTF IS THIS. If he is town you get the same info as if he is town, how does this make any sense, can we all quickly evaluate Elements?

this was poorly worded it sould've been: "i think loopdan is town, but his lynch will tell us the most information"

And of course now we are in the inevitable "Loopdan is scum" phase of Element's reads. I won't spoiler that because it just happened a couple posts above.

[Elements]

Your acting as is this is a master plan I've had since post one, you give me too much credit

[MagikHorse]

I've been busy for the last hour or so, and I'll be unavailable for most of tonight. Just thought you guys should know.

Anyways, I don't really think that this is some sort of "master plan" from the beginning rather than him suspecting you of evolving your plan in an attempt to get him lynched and cut off the day.

[Loopdan]

Exactly.

[Skellen]

@Skellen - I'm sure you've already made this clear somewhere else, but I can't remember off the top of my head and you are here right now... If you had to pick a lynch between Muh and Elements, who do you choose?

And since I don't know if I've stated it myself: My preference is a Muh lynch.

It's night here and by tomorrow the day might already be over depending by what RCE and Munchmellow are going to do while I sleep, so I might expand my answer as well explain my complete stance on the whole situation as this could be my last post on Day 1, so sorry for the wall.

Personally I would still prefer to lynch you, since you are in my eyes scummy enough to justify it, even although I have some doubts. Enter pointed it out perfectly in #630 how your flip would resolve so much that independent from your alignment scum would be cornered, scum wouldn't even be able to keep up with the nightkills to get rid of that many certain townies. But whatever, that train has departed when I unvoted for the sake of the Pvt/RCE slot (screw that slot) so I have no one to blame than myself. At least I am confident that you guys will be found out if your guys' lynch choice will end up as town and you are scum.

To come back to your original question, assuming you are out of reach, in the end I would lynch any of these two if necessary as both are scummy enough that I would give it a try if that's how it must be done.

I have my doubts about Elements recently because I think his reads seem authentic coming from a townie mind as they contain also some small details here and there sometimes that are unnecessary but rather show me the insecure thinking of a townie who is trying to figure things out. Plus rereading the situation with his vote I can kind of see the buildup in his posts until he snapvotes, at least I can follow here to a degree where he is coming from. Otherwise his vote is weird as scum. All he had to do was playing the waiting game as the situation was comfortable assuming Loopdan and Thespio are both town. In doubt someone would have hammered you to conclude the day and that's all. It would only make sense with the Elements/Muh connection you are seemingly betting on as muh had two votes with yours and Magichorse's. However no one else seemed really willing to jump on the muh wagon, so there was no apparent danger either.
I agree however with Thespio/Enter story which I also interpreted as setting the vote strategy for the next day up. But that would have become important when your role would have been revealed (at least for me). Could be that he just deceived me with his recent posts as he was scummy enough before, but what I said above is what is giving me an headache.

Muh is just there. Focussed almost only on you so far and I agree with Elements who called him out for some double standards or with RCE's thinking in #714. Probably the one whose role stands and falls the most depending on yours, which is why I wasn't caring so much about him. He is a hit or miss lynch option. If he is scum, good, it clears you, if he flips town the day ends with "nothing has happened, besides town losing one vote". And that would make me dread Day 2.

tl; dr
If the day isn't over by tomorrow my lynch order is Loopdan (although I think this cause is lost) --> whoever is most likely to lynch among Elements/Muh. Just that I would feel bad in Elements' case.

[Enter]

Elements is still possibly town. At least put loopdan at L-1

[Enter]

Ah, classic Loop. Stalling the game and trying to push another lynch just to survive another day. First he tried to push my lynch but that didn't go anywhere. As soon as he saw the opportunity of another possible wagon on Elements, he jumped on it immediately.

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Sure his post was scummy but I still don't see it as a basis for a lynch. Thespio, when you said you would rather self-lynch than have a NL, isn't that sort of the same situation? In that situation, you want town dead for information. In Elements situation, he also wants town dead for information. What separates the two?

Not really, a self sacrifice, as i explained when i offered it, does alot more then give information. It also helps remove townies that distract from the goal, which at that point I was. Re read my explinations. His is strait up calling someone town, then saying lets kill them. If he explained it beyond just repeating it MAYBE I would buy it, but he isnt, so im not.

Are you arguing that Loopdan isn't distracting town from the goal? You've called him scum, and his play has been consistently such throughout the game. Don't Lynch someone who's made one scummy post over a consistently anti-town player.

[Munchmellow]

Post 319 makes me thing a lack of reading had gone on. I had given a null read on Loopdan and then Munch asked if the argument made me scumread him more??? This makes no sense.

It obviously made sense to you in 320 where you answered it. You knew exactly what I was asking you but now it makes no sense anymore?! And even though you put Loop in null reads, in your description it said, that he does a lot of fence sitting and that Enter's posts made you question his alignment.

Elements
Everything posted by this slot is something I would post as town.

I think this is a wierd thing to say about yourself. It's different when you ask yourself this about others - is this comimg from town slot? But when you are town, you don't have to think - would I post this as town, because you ARE town.

Because there are currently no votes on muh. And as i've said before we get more information when you flip

In post 794, Loopdan wrote:
Let's say Muh and I are both at L-1. You vote me there?

What information do you think we gain from your pov when muh flips in either circumstace?

Why not just say, that you townread muh. Why beat around the bush and not give a concrete answer.

Between loopdan and elements lynch, I lean to elements.

I reread Loopdan's ISO and I still don't scumread him. I think Enter's initial case on Loopdan was week (when Enter first posted it I could see his perspective even if he didn't sway me. After rereading I don't feel it anymore). I townlean Loopdan for now, but there were some things that bothered me (the almost giving up part, some posts that just seemed unnecessary, rushing some players for answers-that seemed like trying too hard).

About Elements - even with his vote joining wagon on Loopdan, he still didn't want to commit and say he scumreads or scumleans Loopdan. It took him days to do that. He wanted to stay in the middle as a good guy with all that "I think you're town, I'm just doing it for info". I also think je was mirepresenting my post 319 as stated above. Picking out pieces that suit you to go with your read is scummy. But I did like his readlist - even if I don't agree with the content, that effort and train of thoughts are more townie than scummy. Even though, with wagon building up, he had to give something.
I scumlean Elements, but am not Enter-confident he is scum.

[Munchmellow]

VOTE: Elements

This is L-1.

[Enter]

I think Elements is town. Please unvote him. If I could get to my computer right now I would case him for you.

[Enter]

Elements seems like he talks weird and makes posts that don't come across right, but if you look at the intent it looks towny.

[Munchmellow]

Elements is still possibly town. At least put loopdan at L-1

Ok, but Loopdan is possibly town too. I can see Elemets posts that are townie, but scum will try to appear townie. And I can see Loopdans posts that are scummy, but town will make posts that will read scummy (otherwise we wouldn't have mislynches).
I think you have double standards. Why isn't it possible thst Loopdan is town?

[Enter]

Munch. What did you think of elements reads list?


What did you think of his points on loopdan?

What did you think of the list of names loopdan has posted that shifts around every couple of pages? What do you think about the large amounts of effort he put into them so we can follow his thought processes?

Have you ever played scum before? I have. When I do, I don't want to do anything, for fear I'll screw something up. I want to contribute as little actual game information as possible. I don't want my reads list to have explanations, because then I have to put effort in to maintain consistency.

Look at the effort from both players. Look at the type of posts they're making.

PEdit: ok here's the thing, town makes a couple posts that look scummy- but most town posts that look scummy- only LOOK scummy. If you think about what they're actually saying, it often comes off as town. If you get nitpicky with wording you can find scum in almost any towny, that's why my posts are so long because I don't like being nitpicked, it's happened a lot to me, cuz I talked weird like elements.

Scum, on the other hand, will try to look towny, but the content of their posts and the motive willl be scummy. Their posts will lack effort. They'll try and make you think they're town through manipulative posts like "GL town, you'll need it" and "If you flip me, town will be down a player," because it's easier to appeal to your emotions and your fears than it is to put in effort to come across as consistent in your reads and the lynches you push. Scum posts will often be low effort, because the only thing they have to do during the day is stay alive and find PRs if they're feeling strong.