Newbie 1912 [GAME COMPLETE]

[Nauci]

Top

Vote Count 2.7

RCEnigma

(PvtUrist)

(2) -

Enter

965

,

Enter 1107

,

Thespio

1108

,

muh316 1184

muh316 (2) -

MagikHorse 962

,

Thespio 1142

Munchmellow (1) -

RCEnigma

(PvtUrist)

966

Thespio (1) -

Enter

1043

,

Munchmellow 1173

Skellen (0) -

MagikHorse (0) -

muh316

1026

Enter (0) -

UNVOTE/Not Voting (1) -

Skellen 961

,

RCEnigma

(PvtUrist)

961

,

Munchmellow

961

,

MagikHorse

961

,

Enter

961

,

muh316

961

,

Thespio

961

,

muh316

1131

With 7 players alive, it takes 4 votes to lynch or not lynch.

Day 2 ends in (expired on 2019-01-30 07:00:00).

[muh316]

While I am at it, care to elaborate what on the Elements wagon gave you the scumlean on Munch?

Munch is sort of that point where I don't trust him to be town so I'd rather leave him on scumlean list. That's why he's closer to town than my other scum suspects. This has to do with my Elements wagon theory and he was on it so I'm not readily able to accept him as town.

Also what is it that makes the case against RCE that strong in your eyes? As I can see the points brought up are the replacement thing. I already commented on it how it could be interpreted in multiple ways and don't really want to list all possible ideas. In the end one can only lose him-/herself in these and come up with a biased interpretation that fits to the own agenda.

There's just the general feel from pvtUrist's initial showing in the game and I just can't shake the replacement theory from my head. Adding on to that is RCE attacking munch and then never giving us that detailed analysis.

Looking at the slot as a whole, given the inactivity, lack of voting, and scummy D1 entrance it makes a good case for a lynch.

[muh316]

Not one bit. Day 1 screwed things over too badly, and now we're facing a bad information shortage since neither Loopdans flip nor Elements flip actually cleared much of anything up.

What sort of information do you hope to gain from my lynch?

I don't have a single clue how we could possibly take you to MYLO/LYLO with so little substance to you and such a high chance that you're scum trying to sneak under the radar here. You'd either be a liability as a poor player that's also lynchbait or scum we don't want making it that far. Neither is good under MYLO/LYLO pressure.

Cool, so what have we gotten from you besides pushing wagons on town players and fluff? And the occasional banter with Enter?

[muh316]

@Magik
D2 you've only contributed to a deathtunnel against me. I haven't seen you call out other players at all. You have a high word count which makes it look like you've put in effort but there's not real substance to it. So I find it hypocritical of you to accuse me of being anti-town when we've seen you with similar behavior, albeit with a higher word-count.

[muh316]

Take a look at it from a scum perspective. Why would a scum player ever wagon on a town player hard and put a target on their back? If I was a newbie with a join date of January 2019, this would make perfect sense. I've been on this site since 2009. If you look at my meta where I've played scum, I'm a lot more active since the role is much more exciting. When I play town I do tend to relax a bit and go with the flow.

In addition, all the cases against me point to my D1 activity where I was dead set on lynching Loop. If you consider my D2 activity, there's a contrast because I'm no longer tunneling.

[MagikHorse]

Take a look at it from a scum perspective. Why would a scum player ever wagon on a town player hard and put a target on their back? If I was a newbie with a join date of January 2019, this would make perfect sense. I've been on this site since 2009. If you look at my meta where I've played scum, I'm a lot more active since the role is much more exciting. When I play town I do tend to relax a bit and go with the flow.

In addition, all the cases against me point to my D1 activity where I was dead set on lynching Loop. If you consider my D2 activity, there's a contrast because I'm no longer tunneling.

Your meta is something I still need to look at at some point tbh, if only because taking somebody at their own meta knowledge is foolishness. Even then, if you're familiar enough with your own meta to say things like that, you're also knowledgeable enough to fake it, as someone could argue about my own claim earlier that I usually defend people when they're being scumread hard and the alternative isn't being properly argued. Same thing applies to that.

Either way I've got too much to process and think about right now, and I want to hear some other voices besides just Enter, you, and me. I'm still not thoroughly convinced of your innocence because it still looks like you were staying low to stay hidden, but I'll admit that I'm probably a bit tunneled and need to give things a fresher look. For now though the TTT server I staff on is busy, and I have to keep the peace there.

[MagikHorse]

UNVOTE: in the meanwhile.

[RCEnigma]

There isn't really a way I can better articulate why I believe Munch to be scum other than what I've already outlined. The alternative and the only thing that would make my assumption untrue is if Enter was just scum pushing Loop day 1 or the team is something like Thespio/Muh.

I'm not interested in exploring Enter scum since he's at some point been townspewed anyways, if it's enter then props and this is probably just a town loss. I'm even more confident on Magik being town than Enter to be honest, there's nothing besides the pocket argument that viably points to him as scum and I know first hand that town can easily pocket town. He didn't produce anything from the pocket that I can say yeah it has scum equity.

What frustrates me is Enter townshielding slots that I am actively against or that are actively against me because I know that's a townie that is pushing against my wincon as town and is one less vote on potential scum. It's less of an issue now because there are 3 other townies in the mix that I have to hope can see eye to eye with me OR can put the pieces together in the event I'm lynched or die. But will be an issue if I'm put into a lylo situation with Enter.

I have to trust he can correctly evaluate the game and right now I'm not super confident in that (no offense, just my opinion on the get state and your play).

[MagikHorse]

I think I'm more or less coming to the conclusion that Day 1 has boned me so badly that I don't have a friggin' clue what is going on with most anybody anymore.

I can't argue too badly with Enter shielding Muh, mostly because I did so with Loopdan and Thespio for a short time. Doesn't mean I'm gonna respond though.

[Enter]

Alright, here's my problem with the game right now:

If I am wrong in my reads today, we will likely go to LyLo tomorrow, so it's really important that I'm right.

There are a couple major forces pushing for lynches today. There's a Muh push (which I'm hesitant on), a Munch push (which I'm opposed to) a Thespio push (which is viable, but I'm not sure about) and an RCE/Magik push which I've grouped solely because I feel identically on them (the pressure is mostly off of my opinion of what is and isn't town play or correct play as well as PoE.)

I also recognize that my reads this game were very wrong as far as Loopdan is concerned and I probably have little more trust in my current reads than RCE does, so here's my plan to rectify the situation:

At some point today I will draw up everyone's reads in my own post and words to the best of my ability and then also case them (including other people's cases) to the best of my ability. I will try to keep it relatively short and not get too wordy with it. If I write something wrong, don't crucify me, this is why we're doing this. Just tell me what you disagree with and we will get it all worked out.

After we have fixed everything, we will then work from there. Dog d good?

[MagikHorse]

I really don't want to get into another wall war with you if I can avoid it, or generally interact with you at all to be honest, but this is something I think I need to hear regardless of my feelings on the matter.

I've been doing more thinking on the workfloor at exactly where things get left off if I ignore Muh as a possibility, and that essentially leaves me with a POE pool of Munch and RCE. As I see it RCE is the only place where the two of us have any sort of overlap at all.

[Skellen]

I disagree. If I find someone scummy I'm going to go after them and ask them questions. I didn't spend D1 speculating on possible scum suspects like others did that were contingent on Loops flip. There were so much discussion of "If Loop is scum/town, then this player is also scum/town" all of which is now pointless. That's probably why you didn't see me write potential scum suspects. Adding on to that, I had some back and forth with Magik D1, so this isn't something that came out of nowhere.

Also, didn't Magik go in a straight line after me starting D2? Didn't RCE go after Munch? Didn't Thespio go after RCE and Me? If you can't get behind me going after other players and calling them scummy, then you should also be calling out the other players.

"Asking questions". Well, you were pretty generous when it came to Loop. Went back and looked through your posts on Day 1 to find only one question. And that was the one why he wasn't looking on his own wagon for scum, which was even wrong. Not counting the general questions like the one with the scum-selfhammer or risking a no-lynch with last minute wagon. You voted him, judged him guilty from the beginning and had no interest to question anything.
I am willing to concede to you the point with Magik/Loop though as this would solidify the scum-Loop suspicion.

The other point was that you actually were speculating (if one could call it like that) with throwing Thespio, Elements and Pvt in just to neglect them. This is in hindsight for me particularly noteworthy as you basically said in #1201 "Looking at the slot as a whole, given the inactivity, lack of voting, and scummy D1 entrance it makes a good case for a lynch.". These are all things that applied to the Pvt/RCE slot at the first day. Yet besides the self-scumread comment there was nothing in that direction.
Btw would it really have mattered less to you if RCE would have hammered Loop/Elements or parked his vote offside the main attraction on you or someone else?

For the lower part of the quote: Yes Magik did on Day 2 and I called him out on that (admittedly after the post addressed to you), however he was more active in that regard during Day 1 with you and Elements or his treatment from scumlean Loop to town Loop. I get your point in that regard though but to me that is far different than you during Day 1.
RCE was kind of the same before he switched on Day 2 to his strange behaviour, I agree with that although I think in theoretical discussions he is making more sense.
Thespio has nothing to do with straight lines, he is like a drunken driver who drives in wiggly lines that it is a miracle he didn't hit anything yet to refer to his unpredictable suspicions with a metaphor (sorry Thespio, I didn't meant it in a rude way), so I have no idea why you bring him up.

[Skellen]

There isn't really a way I can better articulate why I believe Munch to be scum other than what I've already outlined. The alternative and the only thing that would make my assumption untrue is if Enter was just scum pushing Loop day 1 or the team is something like Thespio/Muh.

So ultimately you wouldn't go so far that your scum-Munch case is that confirmed if there is a chance for fault?

This is the one thing I don't get about you and why I can't help but be see you stuck on scumlean for me. You suspect Munch which is fine, yet you aren't even really trying?

[Munchmellow]

Anyway, something else. One thing that bugs me in your post is that you that you critizes Thespio's vote post where he accuses Elements. Now that can be done, but it's not the interesting point. Also pointing out his role fishing attempts, I criticized them as well when I confronted Loop about something similar. These are arguments I could agree with.
However he was your main suspect and he did the role fishing before the Elements wagon when you had already voted him and the very vote/post you criticize is the one that started the wagon you joined. Why weren't you questioning the wagon back then when it started and joined it nevertheless? In contrast to the Loop wagon: At the beginning when Enter got started you agreed with him in a lot of things and could see where the Loop wagon came from and looked at it critically enough to decide that this wagon was too fishy for you. Yet you follow the case of your main suspect? I find it odd, mainly because now that you are bringing up the reasons that you seemingly have overlooked back then when you voted Elements up to L-1.

I see your point and I don't actually have a good answer for that. At the time, I didn't want to vote Loop. My Thespio's vote wasn't doing anything and Elements seemed scummy, so he was best choice and considering it was quite late in D1 it was time to put him to L-1.

I think I'm more or less coming to the conclusion that Day 1 has boned me so badly that I don't have a friggin' clue what is going on with most anybody anymore.

I feel the same way. I don't know whom to trust. I am suspicious of too many people, but all the cases seem weak.
Obviously nobody wants to push Thespio with me considering it's 17hour left and I have a seminar I have to attend tommorow, so I probably won't be here when day ends, I'm gonna move my vote...

[Munchmellow]

IDK, I have to sleep this over... I am too tired to make any reasonable conclusions right now, I will post in the morning (=in 8hours).
I'm leaning to muh, because what I was thinking about RCE - it would be probably better for scum!RCE to move his vote on muh and put him to L-1. Also - we all scumread pvt's play. But when I think again, pvt is a good player (I only played 2games with him, but he seemed ok)and I think would have no problem to appear way townier than he did in this game (which would probably be scum!pvt's agenda).

[MagikHorse]

considering it's 17hour left

Holy carp I forgot how fast these things move nowadays. I thought we were only halfway through the day phase, but you're right: time is running very, very short.

I guess that's what happens when your other newbies were the older variety with 2 week day phases.

[Enter]

Ugh, that sucks.

I'm really sorry I thought we had more time in the day phase, and I'm not feeling really good right now. I'm gonna go to sleep. If I for some reason don't wake up in a normal time frame I support Magik and RCE lynches.

[Enter]

I recognize how crappy that is, I wanted to fix the problem of today being a whole bunch of weak arguments and general confusion and try and get everyone on the same page, but honestly it's more work than I'm willing to try to invest in <16 hours.

[MagikHorse]

I recognize how crappy that is, I wanted to fix the problem of today being a whole bunch of weak arguments and general confusion and try and get everyone on the same page, but honestly it's more work than I'm willing to try to invest in <16 hours.

For once, I feel you here.

[Skellen]

There are a couple major forces pushing for lynches today. There's a Muh push (which I'm hesitant on), a Munch push (which I'm opposed to) a Thespio push (which is viable, but I'm not sure about) and an RCE/Magik push which I've grouped solely because I feel identically on them (the pressure is mostly off of my opinion of what is and isn't town play or correct play as well as PoE.)

To come back to that, this situation is exactly why I am feeling so uncomfortable about the current state of the game. Everything is so wide-spread and deadlocked that I can't help but feel like everything is comfortable for scum or we really have both scum up for the lynch. I don't know what to make out of it. And we have nearly ran out of time.

To raise the stakes for now: VOTE: muh316

Should just be L-2 for now. I will look back into the thread tomorrow morning like in 6 hours. Since I will be at work I have to sneak to the toilet or something like that to post here, so I won't be able to write much at all but it should be enough for votes und unvotes. Depending on muh's next answer and if he can clear my doubts about him or not I will decide if my vote remains on him or if I will unvote. To be honest despite me still seeing some points critical about muh I thought some of his recent posts were good and could be seen consistent with his play, even for Day 1.

If it is not muh it would actually lead me to a dilemma. I think both Thespio and Munch are both candidates that might be better to judge on the next day depending on the next flips which leaves RCE by PoE. And there I only see the Pvt burden and the lack of pressure, particularly on his own case, as scummy points. And being on the same wagon with muh doesn't feel that comfortable either... also that what Munch said in #1214. Blergh. Yeah, no choice, muh --> RCE it is for me as lynch order so far nothing outrageous happens tonight.

[MagikHorse]

Nobody's around tonight somehow, but the timer is late enough that I should be able to post before I leave for work and throw my vote down then if needed.

Hammer needs to happen on somebody though, whether it be Muh or RCE. Don't think anyone else can really happen.

[Thespio]

I'll just post my Thespio readings and than put my vote somewhere (I actually have to think which way to go).
Enter made a nice post that summarizes how I see Thespio

Thespio has a weird talent for making really scummy posts and really towny posts back to back.

What I didn't like at the beggining was his self-sacrificing comment in 69. And here we have another self-hammering offer in 198. This last interaction with Enter was really wierd, actually this whole page was wierd (talking about Thespio), which is probably why my vote stayed on him for so long, even when he started with more townie posts:
It starts with 181, where Thespio totaly townreads Loopdan and votes PvT. Then announces L-1, which it was not. Starts bickering with Enter and in 193 says he is gonna self-vote, so Enter can hammer him if he thinks he's scum. Enter answers and tells him to do it. In 198 Thespio says he will self-hammer (Enter didn't vote him, so he is L-2 and can't actually self-hammer, Enter wants him to self-vote, so he can hammer). In my language we have a proverb, that would summarize all this nicely - the mountain shook and mouse was born. Meaning, there was much uproar and nothing happend. So after his last offer to selfhammer, topic was slowly changes and in 217 Thespio sees Enters point and Loopdans townread goes to scumread. I really didn't like this progression. And threatning to self-vote and when you see the other side would actually hammer you just reverse your stance... [/vote]I think people often dont admit or progress their views and end up hard core tunneling, I think you dislike this for what i said prior, someone adjusting their view isnt scummy, but if you munch play wifom and start trying to guess what scum would and wouldnt do when theres no difference then you might. It looks like you are paranoid at this point.

VOTE: Next thing that I didn't like is his vote on Elements.

@Horse, backup, are you seeing elements post too?? he literally recognizes someone as town and is like 'eh. killem'

Its less about rushing anything and moreso HE LITERALLY SAYS HE IS TOWN AND STILL WANTS HIM DEAD. THIS IS THE SCUMMIEST POST OF THE GAME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
VOTE: Elements Everything put together against loop, even from what i see is only a fraction of how skummy this post is.

Yes, I scumread Elements too and thought it was scummy to vote townread with a lot of time left. But calling it scummiest post of the game. Jumping on it like that.... I don't think so. It seems too much. The only thing that I don't know is what scum!Thespio would gain from such a vote switch. It is one town to another. Maybe searching for PR, since Loop claimed VT (I think Muh talked about this).

Another thing about Thespio and PR's:

^do you know a pr?

Did you just softclaim a pr?

O mean, what is an answer to: do you know a PR? Should he say: yes, I think a PR is ****. I mean PR should claim on D1 only when under intent to hammer. So why try to start conversation about it?!

I was going to scold Loop, hes an IC and should know better, it came at a time when I was less active so I posted before reading what i missed.

All this things make it really hard for me to trust Thespio, even when he says and does townie things.
And lets's not forget - Elements, when asked who his scumread would be if Loop flipped town said Thespio.

Link this but also who cares, he was a pr going on nothing, and he was pretty universally scum read, I genuinely think at this point WIFOM is why you are voting me, because you shouldnt be voting based on a dying wish that couldnt be verified. Also, this should clear me to some degree, he was Jailor, If he thought it was me wouldnt he jail me?


We

[RCEnigma]

I don't know if it's the lack of evaluation this game or the stubbornness regarding reads. I can't put my finger on it but it's made me less invested in the game. Skellen is still trying to gamesolve so that's probably selfish of me. Her and Magik I probably never lynch.

Skellen to answer you partly. It's not that I feel there is doubt, the alternative I posed is unlikely but to me is the only way that Munch is town here fmpov. Thus my surety on her flipping scum.

If Muh flips scum munch is just the partner, I doubt much vs Magik today was scum theater, Thespio would deserve some consideration. I know you discounted Munch/Thespio together and I think the logic is sound there.

Munch/muh would fit the scum apathy theory Loop brought up and based on both day 1 wagons being town it points to the advocates/sheep votes and not the leaders of the lynches.

Enter this probably narrows your Poe down to just me but afaik your accusations on Magik/less so loop were in part for leading a counterwagon in Elements. I don't see the scum motivation behind getting Elements wagon going when a strong wagon against Loop as town was already rolling. Sure it makes sure at least one of the two flips and the danger of a wagon flipping on scum is nullified but it was pretty apparent Loop was going to be lynched despite his VT claim.

[Munchmellow]

Also, this should clear me to some degree, he was Jailor, If he thought it was me wouldnt he jail me?

What is your point here? How do we know he didn't jail you? How do YOU know he didn't jail you?

[RCEnigma]

Also, this should clear me to some degree, he was Jailor, If he thought it was me wouldnt he jail me?

Speaking of wifom.... I think he shit elsewhere regardless.