Open 753: Nomination Mafia [Game Over!]

[GrandWazoo]

Hi. I just confirmed and it's page 11 already wtf

[GrandWazoo]

Almost half this thread has been RC vs. DT so I'll focus on them. There's almost no chance this is TvT. Proceeding from this premise, once you filter out the ad hom stuff RC comes off much scummier.

This seems like a town reaction:

you are constantly saying dumb stuff and contradicting yourself with ' i didn't push you/vote you', 'you should have more respect to my town game and just sheep me', 'if i didn't see you scum in brides, i would scum read you'

No contradictions.

When I said that, it was true.
When I said you should respect my town game enough that when I tell you that your reason for scumreading someone is garbage, you don't double down on it, yeah, true.
The only reason I considered you as potential town ever this game is because I've already seen you game throw level perform as town. This is already several tiers below PB

no you pushed me for numerous pages. you dont just constantly interact with me to one post before voting me and pretend to not have pushed me

having respect for your town game, again, has nothing to do with this game and you were using that to try to influence my scum read on volxen. that's asinine that you think i should just sheep you because you played well as town previously

i also asked you what you thought of my first scum game against you in merchant's. were you disappointed? is it similar to here? why aren't you using all the meta you know to judge my game here?

This does not:

The hallmark of rvs is wagons based on nothing. Defending it is . . . counterproductive?

I would prefer votes not be placed at all

And there's a difference between being wrong and being belligerent and obnoxious and wrong.

Sure. When people keep telling you your read is bad your reaction shouldn't be to double down.

keep pushing me. i am just gonna wait until someone else posts something of value

I'm not voting you. I'm not pushing you. I'm telling you to stop.

I don't think you're actually reading as opposed to just saying what reactions you think make you look townier

VOTE: doubting Thomas

Now I'm voting you

Having never played with these two (or anyone else this game for that matter), it's possible from their history that they don't like each other and that these exchanges would happen regardless of alignment. It's also possible that they're both scum, engaging in an extended choreographed drama to distract town. Unlikely, but possible.

VOTE: RadiantCowbells

ETA: sorry for the wall, my attempts to put quotes inside spoiler tags didn't work.

[GrandWazoo]

Waxoo, I agree some of RC’s posts about how many votes should be placed are unusual
What about them is scummy

To insist that you're not voting or pushing a player, then vote them almost immediately thereafter, pinged me big time. Again, assuming DT and RC are neither both town or both scum, RC is displaying more traits I associate with scum.

UNVOTE:

What are your reads

Aside from the two I've mentioned, I get slight town vibes from Aero, Fusco, SR. Volxen shoshin and you are null. Scumlean Clemency but I gather his erratic play is something of a strategy so IDK. Then there's demonlord who hasn't posted.

[GrandWazoo]

it's possible from their history that they don't like each other and that these exchanges would happen regardless of alignment.

You feel their exchange does imply a possible "bad history" between them, which is correct.
You believe these exchanges would then happen regardless of alignment.
Then why do you believe it can't be a TvT? If the exchanges were to happen regardless of alignment, it could very well be TvT, no?

I said it's possible, not that I believe it. The whole interaction is anti-town tbh, which is why I think scum distancing is possible too.

It's far more likely that one of them is triggered town and one is aggro scum.

[GrandWazoo]

I might rep out this game has been awful so far and I'm just going to get lynched first nomination phase anyway

You asked me to sign up for this game so I'll be really upset if you leave. Also, why are you running away from the challenge of not getting lynched on first nomination phase? Are you not up to it?

A townie shouldn't care about being lynched so long as it provides information to town.

[GrandWazoo]

@SR: I haven't played with anyone here either, and it's obviously good to develop reads based on gameplay as opposed to meta. I wouldn't accept an argument like "X played like this as scum in games Y and Z therefore X is scum here" uncritically, but I don't discount it either since players do have AI playstyles over time. I don't agree that scum don't update townlists; in fact they should do this in order to steer town into mislynches and gain towncred.

[GrandWazoo]

I don't recall saying my town game was hit or miss because my reads are hit or miss and given you've seen three consecutive games where

I was town and got fucked over because people refused to townread me

when I was objectively towny the dots shouldn't be difficult for you to connect.

you said your town game is a hit or miss. this i will not retract ever. you said it. you can always be scum so there will never be a day i will blindly sheep you. stop trying to shade me over stupid things like how i should respect your reads more??? like really?

In response to this

It's not hard to put two and two together that my town game is 'ht or miss' because

I can't get people to stop fucking scumreading me

and he's trying to use it to attack my reads

You know if I had this problem, I'd probably do some self-analysis to figure out why I'm consistently scumread. Like maybe my flippant ad homs and appeals to emotion and authority aren't getting me the desired results. Rather than bitch about what a shitty game this is and threaten to flake at L-3 early day 1.

[GrandWazoo]

and that's in a game with two townies who have like nonexistent scum range: people were more uncertain about NSG than anon!myself. my original reputation on this site was for being unlynchable. etc.

How and when did this change for you?

but sure. blame me for being pissed off that my town game is being sandbagged by something that is literally nothing to do with my towngame itself.
if i was losing games because I was actually not towny enough, because my reads weren't good enough, because I couldn't lead lynches well enough, that's something to work on
But when I'm literally having games thrown because I'm good as scum and I can't stop it and I can't ever have a town wr as good as people worse on all of the above categories than me?

it's pretty fucked up.

Since I've never played with you, I can only go off this game. If/when I have the time I'll go read some of your past games. Meanwhile why did you move off your DT vote to Clemency? I mean, I get a wolfy vibe from him too and could see voting him at some point, but after pushing DT (you say you weren't but it sure looked that way to me) and voting him, you jumped off his wagon right quick.

[GrandWazoo]

I want to hear more from wazoo in general

Do you have a general question? A specific one?

Pedit: Oh I should probably say: RC is a crap wagon and should not be lynched today
I am only bringing up my paranoia because I’d like to feel settled on RC being town which is hard to do

Sounds like you're willfully engaging in confbias. Maybe it's hard to do because RC's behavior is scummy?

DT, Clemency, GW, how do you read each other?

As I mentioned earlier, I have a townlean on DT and a scumlean on Clemency.

[GrandWazoo]

Mm i did forget a couple of your posts, my bad
You’ve been pretty quiet in general though so I still want more from you I think

Ummmm idk what though tbh. Talk to me more about intentionally voting RC with Clemency, your scumlean. Also about why you townlean SR

I vote who I think is the most likely scum. If the second- or third-most likely scum are on the wagon, so be it. It still could be useful in sorting them later.
SR is more a gut thing. Nothing stands out one way or the other, so just call it null for now.

[GrandWazoo]

I'm not scum, RC. I'm disappointed in you.

Why do you care more about RC's fate than he does?

[GrandWazoo]

I'm not scum, RC. I'm disappointed in you.

Why do you care more about RC's fate than he does?

RC's self-destructive as both alignments.

And this is pro-town behavior because?

Why are you townreading DT, Wazoo?

I get the feeling DT is trying to gamesolve and not too worried about appearing scummy doing it.

I'll add that my tendency is to scumread townies as opposed to townreading scums.

[GrandWazoo]

And this is pro-town behavior because?

I never said it was pro-town. I said he engages it as both alignments.

So why is he the "worst possible lynch"? Is this some kind of rescue fantasy sequence? Get out the violins and the soft-focus lens!

[GrandWazoo]

RC's the worst possible lynch on D1 because he's going to be nominated.

The only way you'd know this is if you're scum. He might be, he might not be. He might be nominated even if he's scum, if scum follows your line of reasoning.

Why would we ever waste an odd-lynch on RC when we can do it on an even one?

This is nonsense. If a player's worth lynching D2, he's worth lynching D1.

He's also the worst possible lynch on D1 because he's one of the strongest townies on this site

RC didn't even make this claim. He said he had a reputation for being a strong scum player. Strong townies don't self-vote and threaten to ragequit.

[GrandWazoo]

I'm appearing as towny as I possibly can in THIS game as n actual townie.

If I were scum, I could appear more towny to certain players because of the fact that I'd know those players were town and thus wouldn't have to actively sort them in my interactions but instead could focus exclusively on manipulating them.

In my experience posts that contain "If I were scum..." statements are more likely than not to come from scum.

[GrandWazoo]

Mod: can we have a VC?

Been several hundred posts since the last one.

[GrandWazoo]

It's not fair that I have to try to decide whether clearly bad faith scumreads on me are town or scum every game

Bad faith? You've done some scummy shit this game my dude. Others may buy into your pity party routine, not me.

That's how I feel too.

Aww look, Harry and Sally are back together.

Fuck you, RC.

You're a massive dick sometimes.

This from the player constantly complaining about lack of decorum in this game.

Loath as I am to let RC get away with his emotionally manipulative shenanigans, his wagon's stalled. Congrats RC, you're unlynchable again...

VOTE: shoshin

[GrandWazoo]

Auro: given your 661 and the extended 1v1 that followed, I'm surprised you've dropped your push on Shoshin. Has she said or done anything that makes her town from your pov? Clemency otoh doesn't inspire confidence but hasn't done much that I'd call scummy. You've barely engaged with him yet voting him. Why?

[GrandWazoo]

On the contrary, I believe a few scums were quite active

Then why aren't you voting any of them? You voted Auro, then unvoted without explanation.

[GrandWazoo]

Auro: given your 661 and the extended 1v1 that followed, I'm surprised you've dropped your push on Shoshin. Has she said or done anything that makes her town from your pov? Clemency otoh doesn't inspire confidence but hasn't done much that I'd call scummy. You've barely engaged with him yet voting him. Why?

I'm not perfectly satisfied with her response to my push, but I stated I'll revisit that later, no? I think there are scummier slots to pursue at the moment, and I think I may be biased against her adopted playstyle - can you point out anything actively scummy you think she did?/quote]

If RC's scum, he knows with 100% certainty that I don't let him get lynched on D1 if I townread him.

Playing agressively =/= being rude. Be respectful please.

For the record, I would be okay with a modkill on DT. Or a forced replacement.

Someone who's against policy-lynch on one player shouldn't be advocating policy-lynching another.

RC's the worst possible lynch on D1 because he's going to be nominated. Why would we ever waste an odd-lynch on RC when we can do it on an even one? He's also the worst possible lynch on D1 because he's one of the strongest townies on this site, meaning it would be a massive windfall for the scum to lynch town him on D1 (especially since he won't have time to catch the scum for us, plus it causes his to become self-destructive), whereas saving a lynch on scum RC for D2 doesn't hurt town at all because we still have the opportunity to lynch his partners.

This is nonsense. If a player's worth lynching D2, he's worth lynching D1.

Scum choose the lynch on D2 through nominations so it's optimal to lynch RC on D2 when our options are limited.

Only scum would know who's being nominated.

Look,

if you want to push my lynch I'm going to push a lynch on you, for obvious reasons.

If you want to work with me instead and see if we can lynch scum together, then I think the outcome is going to be a lot better, regardless of your alignment. I also think your alignment will become clearer to me in that way.

This might be the scummiest post of the game.

It's untrue that I've barely engaged with Clemency. I have asked him questions earlier, I'm waiting for him to respond. However, I don't really expect a meaningful response - I've played with Clemency in the past, and his posts are noise to me, and I don't recall him ever making a good-faith attempt to engage as town.

For example,

Spoiler:

I mean the answer isn't too hard to think about. Just wanna see you gamesolve, bud

my methods are an enigma

A small list of things I find scummy, which Clemency did:
> His L-2 vote on me,

inspite

of townreading me, because "when was the last time you saw the first wagon on a >9 player game go through"
> Riling up RC - gamestate manipulation, considering he has history with RC and knows what would happen
> Misrepresentation of self-meta in 362 and 366

Why do you not find these scummy?

Clemency's YOLO playstyle defies logic. I wouldn't use his reads against him since they don't make sense anyway. If you don't expect a meaningful response it's unlikely you'll get one. I've had Clem in my scumlean file for awhile. I wouldn't oppose his lynch I think there are better candidates. By which I mean Shoshin.

[GrandWazoo]

@GW's 720:
1. Re: Policy lynches, Why not? I'd be against a policy lynch on RC for "being too good as scum", for example; but you could call my Clemency push an effective policy-lynch too since I can imagine his play coming from town as well (from experience).

My point was not about policy-lynches per se, but about Shoshin's hypocrisy in wanting DT modkilled.

2. "Only scum would know who's nominated" - I think this is a stretch, and she's clearly speaking in context, you're interpreting the intent of the post wrongly.

Combined with her argument "well we can always lynch RC D2" assuming RC would be nominated in the first place, is a scum mindset. As is "you know I'll defend you D1" Esp. when RC was openly and repeatedly declaring his intention to ragequit.

3. About the "if you push me I'll push you" - I brought the same point up in my push, and her rebuttal was that it was her applying a BoP to RC. While I don't like it much, can you not see this coming from town?

I didn't buy her rebuttal at all.

[GrandWazoo]

Way too fucking much meta/oog in this game.

[GrandWazoo]

Wazoo

random insistence that me DT was SvS

, keeps calling Clemency scum but refuses to vote. Yuck.

Blatant and deliberate misreps. From 294:

It's also possible that they're both scum, engaging in an extended choreographed drama to distract town.

Unlikely

, but possible.

Unlikely becomes random insistence. Yuck.

I've had Clemency as a scumlean, mostly because I have no idea what he's doing but pretty sure it's not pro-town. IOW not nearly as scummy as you or shoshin.

[GrandWazoo]

Hey Wazoo, I get the feeling you're ready to throw in the towel. Can you save us some trouble by confirming who your partners are?

Not throwing in anything, just getting back from work and catching up.
I still get the feeling you're scum.

[GrandWazoo]

Yeah yeah yeah gotta work on that scum play bby

Why aren't you voting me? Shit or get off the pot ffs.

[GrandWazoo]

Is this where I say my soul is crushed and ask to be replaced? Or do I need more votes?

[GrandWazoo]

I could vote for myself, yeah?

[GrandWazoo]

What's next? Oh, right, I'll bitch about what a pile of shit the lobby is.

Gosh, I've learned so many great scum tips from you. If I ever roll scum I'll be sure to give you credit.

[GrandWazoo]

Here's my theory: you think you're so good you can commit every scumtell in the book and still not get lynched. It's impressive you're still alive but the day is still young

[GrandWazoo]

You know if I had this problem, I'd probably do some self-analysis to figure out why I'm consistently scumread. Like maybe my flippant ad homs and appeals to emotion and authority aren't getting me the desired results. Rather than bitch about what a shitty game this is and threaten to flake at L-3 early day 1.

Also if I need a coup de grace here no one ever says this to a townread

The fuck are you talking about. You were never a townread.

[GrandWazoo]

I'm willing now to claim a guilty on grandwazoo

If he flips town you can speedlynch me as soon as I'm up for lynch

This never flips town

Oh god. You are never going to be nominated and you know it.

VOTE: RC

[GrandWazoo]

To a scumread etc. I make typing mistakes. I'd be more careful as scum.

I was trying to offer helpful advice as to why you're always scumread.
Now this is a scumtell. You're a piece of work bruh.

[GrandWazoo]

Who says to scum you'll never be nominated and you'll know it?

I don't know who you guys will nominate but I'll be it won't be you.

[GrandWazoo]

Here is the context that you conveniently omit:

I don't recall saying my town game was hit or miss because my reads are hit or miss and given you've seen three consecutive games where

I was town and got fucked over because people refused to townread me

when I was objectively towny the dots shouldn't be difficult for you to connect.

you said your town game is a hit or miss. this i will not retract ever. you said it. you can always be scum so there will never be a day i will blindly sheep you. stop trying to shade me over stupid things like how i should respect your reads more??? like really?

In response to this

It's not hard to put two and two together that my town game is 'ht or miss' because

I can't get people to stop fucking scumreading me

and he's trying to use it to attack my reads

You know if I had this problem, I'd probably do some self-analysis to figure out why I'm consistently scumread. Like maybe my flippant ad homs and appeals to emotion and authority aren't getting me the desired results. Rather than bitch about what a shitty game this is and threaten to flake at L-3 early day 1.

This was while you were in full temper tantrum mode and I was handing you a binky.

[GrandWazoo]

Dude I literally voted you MY SECOND POST OF THE GAME

i never once townread you, not then and certainly not now.

[GrandWazoo]

I talk to you like I talk to everyone else. I try to address my fellow players with some modicum of respect. Not because they deserve it, but to keep me from tilting when they start shading me with bullshit. Which you are.

[GrandWazoo]

SR remember you won't be able to lynch him till D3.
And RC your town prowess is straight garbage.

[GrandWazoo]

Are you still scumreading me, Wazoo?

In short, yes. But I'm more focused on your bestie right now.

Remember your promise to lynch RC D2? I do.

[GrandWazoo]

You won't be nominated because you're scum.

[GrandWazoo]

Remember your promise to lynch RC D2? I do.

I don't remember. Please refer me to where I promised to lynch RC.

RC's the worst possible lynch on D1 because he's going to be nominated. Why would we ever waste an odd-lynch on RC when we can do it on an even one? He's also the worst possible lynch on D1 because he's one of the strongest townies on this site, meaning it would be a massive windfall for the scum to lynch town him on D1 (especially since he won't have time to catch the scum for us, plus it causes his to become self-destructive), whereas saving a lynch on scum RC for D2 doesn't hurt town at all because we still have the opportunity to lynch his partners.

Promise is a bit strong, but you were forcefully arguing against lynching RC D1 cuz we could do it D2

~fixed the broken quote
ejj~

[GrandWazoo]

Pfft formatting. You get the drift.

[GrandWazoo]

So that if/when I'm lynched folks can look back on this sorry episode.

[GrandWazoo]

Because after I flip town people will respond accordingly.

[GrandWazoo]

Mislynch means it'll be 4v3 D3.

RC has committed every scumtell in the book SR. AtE is the least of them actually.

[GrandWazoo]

I take comfort in the fact that after I flip, nobody will listen to a word RC says.
That to him will be worse than a lynch.

[GrandWazoo]

Wazoo, please respond to 1051. Also, to clarify, 520 doesn't say I want to lynch RC, it just says that anyone who wants to lynch him should wait until D2. Why do you keep misreading what I've said?

My point was that "wait until D2" assumes that he's nominated D2. After my flip, it is a virtual lock that he won't be.
Hopefully town remembers that he's singlehandedly driven a mislynch, despite being the scummiest player in the game.

[GrandWazoo]

I'm still waiting on answers to my questions from Wazoo. I don't get why he's ignoring some while answering others. It's like he doesn't want me to townread him.

What question did I not answer. On my phone and don't have time to scroll up 20 pages of bullshit.

[GrandWazoo]

I've addressed all your concerns. Why are you still scumreading me?

This is 1051. Why didn't you respond to this, Wazoo? I asked you twice, and you intentionally ignored it the second time.

Oh, so you're asking why I'm still scumreading you. Sorry, I wasn't intentionally ignoring. 1051 was 250 posts ago. Much has happened in the interim, namely this shitwagon RC is driving on me.

My scumread had mostly to do with your comments (including recent ones) that you wouldn't let RC die if you could help it. Since RC was my scumread all along, this wasn't a good look for you, from my pov.

You could've hammered me a while ago but are doing your due diligence, so townpoints for that. In any case you aren't the priority lynch for today.

[GrandWazoo]

Wazoo why aren’t I a scumread for you if defending RC is what it takes

I don't think you're scum. I think you're wrong on RC but you're not alone. Sadly.

[GrandWazoo]

I'm scum because I think RC's town? Are you serious, Wazoo? If you're town how do you even know RC's scum? Why can't he be a misguided townie from your perspective?

That's not what I'm saying and you know it.

It's one thing to say "I'm townreading X." It's another thing altogether to say "I'll defend X for as long as I'm alive."

Capece?

[GrandWazoo]

Wazoo why aren’t I a scumread for you if defending RC is what it takes

I don't think you're scum. I think you're wrong on RC but you're not alone. Sadly.

Right but like

why

Why what? Why do I not scumread you? I just answered that. Wrong =/= Scum. Why do I think you're wrong about town!RC? That should be painfully obvious by now.

[GrandWazoo]

I'm going to replace out if the alternative is spending another day dealing with DT, fuscoscos, grandwazoo, etc's crap without at least having a scum flip to bolster my morale.

I'm sorry but I can't deal with this.

Here we go again. "Things are going the way I want so Imma quit."

Town never does this, and this is the second time he's done it.

I let go of the wheel then town gets lynched and I deal with this all over again

Drama queen has a verrry low opinion of y'all on my wagon.

Yes RC this game is all about you and your feelings.

Breathtaking arrogance and sniveling self-pity isn't a good combo. Neither one of them is a town trait.

[GrandWazoo]

This is no misguided townie, Shoshin.

[GrandWazoo]

If that's true, then you know I nailed scum my first two games.

[GrandWazoo]

The track was my 3d game, which suffered from apathy and I was being provocative.

1st game I got scum lynched, and after I was NKd the second scum who was chainsawing me went down.

2d game I drove the only successful lynch of the game.

You are scumreading town right now, which is what matters

[GrandWazoo]

If you're bragging about your proficiency as town and all you have reads wise is me then that makes you scum, no?

I'm not bragging, I'm answering questions. Yes, I have scumread town. Who hasn't?

[GrandWazoo]

I think you are too. I'm very confident about this one.

[GrandWazoo]

Wazoo has also townread scum.

Yes, unfortunately I can't read people's minds. If you're talking about Junko, she was townread by literally everyone.

[GrandWazoo]

Egix was a DL compromise lynch in a dreadfully apathetic game. I didn't have a read on him but I did vote him. Or doesn't that count?

[GrandWazoo]

I'm heading out for a few hours. If I'm still alive when I get back, I'll be happy to continue this post mortem.

[GrandWazoo]

LMAO

Shoshin and RC obsessed with my reads in three newbie games. They're a cute couple but this is ridic.

RC consistently ignores/misreps criticism of his scummy play in THIS game.

Shoshin what scummy things have I done THIS game?

[GrandWazoo]

289 from grandwazoo he seems like he's noticing things and then superficially restating them. Its like reading the book of job and then talking about Job instead of gods relationship and obligation to man. Or anything a little more abstract than the actual story. maybe its a context thing, but I remember my initial reaction was to ick at it.

That wasn't even my post you dolt.

[GrandWazoo]

Congrats scum you lynched a townie.

If town wants to win it needs RC dead.

[GrandWazoo]

That's because you suck at this game.

[GrandWazoo]

Why would I fucking lie at this point?

RC you are either crafty scum or abysmal town.

[GrandWazoo]

Abysmal and delusional.

[GrandWazoo]

Classic. "I'm great at reading players, except when they're terrible."

But don't worry, your reputation as scum remains unblemished.

[GrandWazoo]

I'm done arguing with you. Thank god I don't have to anymore.