Micro 857: Burden of Proficiency Mafia

[Michael Scott]

Hi, I'm here. Just woke up.
I'll catch up in an hour or two.

[Michael Scott]

Okay, I've caught up. I wanted to run through some stuff with Volxen but he's not responding on Discord. I've some analysis to share but first, I want a couple questions cleared up:

1. Shoshin, RC, how confident are you in your URAP townreads?
2. URAP, do you believe you're an easy read? Can you link to some successful scumgames of yours?
3. Shoshin, when you called RC obvscum on Page 1, you reason that you weren't serious. However, you should know that RC gets annoyed at being scumread for what he perceives are bad reasons - what did you see yourself gaining by doing that, since his reaction would be the same regardless of alignment?

[Michael Scott]

I'm asking those questions for a reason, RC.

I can show my analysis right now but I'd prefer the questions answered first - if you really want me to go ahead I will right now, though.

[Michael Scott]

Nah, once I post the rationale for them you'll understand.

[Michael Scott]

I understand. I did want to run this by Volxen first, but anyway, I'll compile my thoughts in a moment.

[Michael Scott]

From my perspective, at least one of the active posters - {RC, URAP2, Shoshin} has to be scum. I've played with URAP2 as town once in the past, and I don't recall any games with the other two outside of alts.

Considering for a moment that Saudade is town, this would imply two scum within {RC, URAP, Shoshin} - so I reasoned that if I can eliminate SvS pairs within the tuple, I can safely conclude that Saudade is scum, regardless of who the other scum within the tuple is.

There are only three possible SvS pairs: URAP+RC, URAP+Shoshin, RC+Shoshin. Of these, from my knowledge of the slots and also the current gamestate, it seems like I can go about eliminating the first two pairs first - reasoning being that if URAP was scum with one of them, the other would be competent enough to recognize URAP as scum. Thus, if both slots townread URAP, it's likely that URAP isn't scum. I want to follow this up with my own read of URAP - his play does remind me of SC2 where he was town, but I have to read up scumgames of his. I'm yet to scrutinize his play within this game alone. This is why I asked about your confidence in the townread.

Eliminating the pairs with URAP in them leaves RC+Shoshin as the remaining possible pair if Saudade is town, and is my primary interest in evaluating this game. ATM from my skim of the game so far I'm leaning against it - the primary indicator of it is right in the start, where Shoshin called RC obvscum and RC seems to have "misinterpreted" it. Theater also feels unnecessary in the case they're both scum as far as I can judge - but I'll re-read and refine my thoughts there.

If I can eliminate this pairing as well, I'll be confident enough from PoE that Saudade is scum.

Pedit: Shoshin, I'll check it out. I skimmed the game.

[Michael Scott]

I haven't excluded any pair 100%

I'm reliant on you recognizing URAP scum if they're a scumpair - I've yet to form a read on URAP as well, which I'll do in due time.

[Michael Scott]

Are you not a very competent scumhunter?

[Michael Scott]

This situation is interesting as both you and Shoshin are reputed as extremely competent scumhunters, and URAP doesn't feel like a hard-to-read slot. URAP scum implies one of you has to be town, which means I can rely with a good degree of confidence.

[Michael Scott]

I mean I suppose but it's always good to get second opinions. particularly given if they're both scum I was alone getting pocketed by both of them for the entire thread so far.

I know this - which is why I'm not shying away from forming my own read, which I'll do when I get time.

[Michael Scott]

We also have a number of Paragons here and it's in their best interest to have scum lynched - so we'll have a wealth of opinions soon enough.

[Michael Scott]

I don't have high enough IQ to follow your reasoning, MS.

I mean it's simple.
I'm town so both scum have to be in the other four slots.

Assert Saudade town: One pair in {RC, Shoshin, URAP} has to be SvS.
Eliminate all SvS pairings in {RC, Shoshin, URAP} and it contradicts the above -> confidence that Saudade is town.

[Michael Scott]

scum*, sorry.

[Michael Scott]

Well after the first skim, I'm at Shoshin > URAP > RadiantCowbells.

I would counter that "these two aren't SvS" is also a read, if not an individual read - whatever helps me win the game.

[Michael Scott]

My read accuracy is meh, and I'm not at all confident in these reads but if you want me to explain more about what pinged me and what I liked, I can go into detail.

[Michael Scott]

Scummiest to towniest as I see it.

[Michael Scott]

I'm in the process, man.
I have a thumb splint because of inflammation that makes typing really hard, so give me some time.

[Michael Scott]

Shoshin: Don't like her "obvscum" comment P1 when she should know it would just rile you up. I feel like she tried to push RC initially but when it failed, buddied up to him. She shaded my slot a couple of times saying we're usually "hyper posters" without considering the simple alternate hypothesis that the hyperposter within my hydra (me) was offline.

URAP: No real read here, but I'm a bit paranoid about his settling on the three being TvTvT pretty quick and being so ready to lynch from me and Saudade, while also saying he's adding nothing to the game and wants to wait for the other slots. I also figure town!URAP wouldn't be so quick to clear RC.

RadiantCowbells: I frankly can't place an agenda to this slot - I would expect scum!RC to strong-arm through the game by now. This is the only slot that was waiting to properly evaluate the game till I and Saudade appeared - which I find very towny.

[Michael Scott]

like i kinda feel like if you're town you're expecting me and shoshin to spoon feed you the game.

Context.

If URAP is scum one of you both has to be town, so it's reasonable that if you both call him town he's likely town. I never said I'll blindly sheep you just because you say that, did I? Obviously I'd debate against it if I believed otherwise.

[Michael Scott]

Anything in my reads you want to talk about?

[Michael Scott]

It's literally in the previous page

[Michael Scott]

Why was that funny?

[Michael Scott]

you marked me town thats good I mark you town as well

I also dont follow the pairings logic as to why you decided im town though

No no. The last word was supposed to be scum*

[Michael Scott]

No...

[Michael Scott]

I was outlining a process by which I could safely arrive at that conclusion independent of your posting

[Michael Scott]

I don't think you got the point of that post. However, don't consider it for now - I'll revisit that later, for now take it that I don't have a read on you @Saudade

[Michael Scott]

Okay, third time I'm explaining this.

If you're town, Saudade, then from my perspective both scum are in {RC, Shoshin, URAP}.
If I have enough evidence that RC+Shoshin isn't a scumpair, Shoshin+URAP isn't a scumpair, and RC+URAP isn't a scumpair, that would mean that there cannot be two scum in RC, Shoshin, URAP.
If there's only one scum in RC, Shoshin, URAP, given I'm town, you have to be the other scum.

[Michael Scott]

There is as yet insufficient data for a meaningful... read on your slot

[Michael Scott]

Stk is obvscum!

[Michael Scott]

What are you getting at?

[Michael Scott]

Like I feel I don't really understand the conversation between you two and how it ended up with you being disgusted with him.

[Michael Scott]

Oh, ah it was in jest. Okay

[Michael Scott]

Saudade are you planning to read the first 16 pages? Any initial reads?

[Michael Scott]

So basically
"Saudade do you have an opinion on my reads the page before?"

I quote your reads and ask wtf

"no no there is no read hmu later"

The reads on the other three players.

[Michael Scott]

Is that still a PoE or do you find any of my content scummy? If so what?

[Michael Scott]

If my reads were settled and I was "so ready to lynch" I would have placed a vote.

Not necessarily

[Michael Scott]

your questions were after you were done catching up, but indicated that you hadn't actually read the game

I stated then I skimmed the game, and I also outlined the exact rationale behind my questions. I didn't require to have thoroughly read at that point - why is this scummy exactly?

Do you have experience with Saudade? Why can't his play simply be his style?

[Michael Scott]

My question was to URAP.

[Michael Scott]

You think Saudade's town?

Nope. There's no useful Content from him I find AI. I've read past games enough to know he has a scummy playstyle. Walk me through how he's likely scum?

[Michael Scott]

Yes. I fail to see the contradiction?

[Michael Scott]

As I said, my questions didn't have the pre-requisite of me having thoroughly read the thread.

[Michael Scott]

But when I have no experience with someone, I judge them against what feels to me like a generic scum/town range

So instead of verifying with meta, you just Lynch every scummy looking player even if it's just their normal style?

[Michael Scott]

Saudade usually doesn't post half the stuff he posted in this game if he's town. It feels like he's trying too hard to town tell.

You mean empty posting? I'll keep that in mind and check.

[Michael Scott]

that's reasonable, but you also said that you were caught up and then only backtracked on that once it was clear you had not read the whole game.

I did read the whole game, I skimmed it.

[Michael Scott]

Shoshin lied about having posted that question, so I assumed I just missed it as I skimmed and didn't read with close attention.

[Michael Scott]

I do my best to sort people, but no I'm not big on meta dives. Very rarely have I gone back to try and confirm something via meta.

And because of the assumption in your question that you believe meta dives to be worthwhile, I'll expect you to confirm that.

Yeah, Meta is a useful tool to discern if something is AI - especially if you're scumreading them for it. Especially here, since we get just one Lynch.

[Michael Scott]

What did shoshin lie about?

That she asked that question and you answered it earlier in the thread.

[Michael Scott]

Shoshin, you asked me for my reads when I'd already posted a preliminary readslist. I answered you about Saudade - no follow-up?

[Michael Scott]

I do my best to sort people, but no I'm not big on meta dives. Very rarely have I gone back to try and confirm something via meta.

And because of the assumption in your question that you believe meta dives to be worthwhile, I'll expect you to confirm that.

Yeah, Meta is a useful tool to discern if something is AI - especially if you're scumreading them for it. Especially here, since we get just one Lynch.

So can you spell out your reasoning in detail for him being obvscum?

[Michael Scott]

I'm waiting for you to do your meta check.

You'll need to give me time for that - I'm busy and on mobile.
Meanwhile, is my agreement/disagreement on that meta of Saudade your only method of sorting me?

[Michael Scott]

saudade is scummy af.

Sorry, I meant this. Why he's scummy AF.

[Michael Scott]

Yep, agreed. But I'm still not going to do it. That would be a quick trip to burning out for me, and when you meta me you will find that to be a consistent position of mine.

Interesting - so if I assert that a behavior from X slot is NAI from meta, you'd just buy it?

[Michael Scott]

You're asking pointless questions, MS.

It was rhetorical to a fair extent.

[Michael Scott]

I believe you believe your stated stance. That wasn't the purpose of the conversation.

[Michael Scott]

these posts are all in the range of kind-of-scummy to scummy-af

Explain the scum motivation in any?

[Michael Scott]

Why are people dead set on Lynching me before I have a proper chance to respond?

Anyone who bothers to check can see that my posting is non-existent everywhere ATM for quite a few reasons.

[Michael Scott]

Hey MS I think that the struggle that I had to go through to get your reads and explanations for those reads is scum indicative. I'm also not townreading your play for any other reason. Talk to me about that?

You're wrong in multiple ways.

Firstly and primarily, my reads and explanations were going to come anyway. You were rushing me in a span of half an hour when I already had an idea of how I wanted to play the game at that point, and even then, if you look at my posts I was *offering* explanations. Without giving me a chance to post naturally, you can't make the accusation that you had to get these reads out of me. Volxen's gone MIA.

Second, I refuse that my pair-elimination was pure mechanical talk. In a vacuum, yes - but I was justifying eliminating pairs *based* on the game content I had so far -- i.e. those WERE reads, if not individual ones. You can't dismiss them as useless content.

Third, I will argue that this behaviour is, in fact, more in line with my town meta than scum meta - feel free to go check for yourself. I'm assertive and strong as scum, and a little more... confused as town, at least in the beginning. Scum!me is not only capable of hyperposting, but also never lurked out. And if you're wondering that I intentionally am playing around you, nah.

I can see why I'm not a townread based on lack of significant content so far, but I shouldn't be scumread either. I can obvtown given time.

[Michael Scott]

i'm preventing you from being speedlynched i demand that you townread me for it tyia

Paragons would guess you easier if you allowed me to be speedlynched, why should that be a reason to townread you?

[Michael Scott]

Auro/Volxen are never this underwhelming.

Disappointing, and maybe scum.
Go check SC2, and my slot's activity levels and how it evolved over time.
Then go check mine and Volxen's recent posting history across the site.

Then tell me how activity is scum indicative.

[Michael Scott]

If you were in my position, that wouldn't be a valid reason to townread you, would it be?

[Michael Scott]

Saudade is the only slot not baying for my blood. Maybe I misjudged that slot.

[Michael Scott]

RC, if you're town does the fact that URAP and Shoshin are wanting to lynch me without giving me a chance to post as I normally would, not the least bit concerning?

[Michael Scott]

i dunno.

think you should townread me from where you're standing.

Well, I am more than URAP and Shoshin at this point just from tjr fact that your push seems in good faith and you want to talk to me.

[Michael Scott]

We're stagnant

Like, "stagnant" in what, two days. Geez.

[Michael Scott]

I actually think Saudade is probtown, and scum's taking advantage of my lack of presence trying to rush a lynch.

[Michael Scott]

Sorry for my snappiness, I'm just a bit annoyed at the gamestate. I'll be here for a while but will get busy again (it's already a pain in the ass typing with a splint), if my incapability in posting is a detriment to you guys to properly solve the game, I'll replace out.

[Michael Scott]

i dunno.

think you should townread me from where you're standing.

If you're sure I'm scum why would you say this?

[Michael Scott]

Your posts on the previous pages made me think you are. Sorry if that's not the case.

[Michael Scott]

What's your solve if I'm town?

[Michael Scott]

And thoughts on second scum if I'm scum?

[Michael Scott]

Ok.

[Michael Scott]

I'm here to talk a while anyway.

[Michael Scott]

Shoshin/URAP, Saudade, RC.

Scummy to towny from my perspective. If you're Scum you're winning anyway thanks to Shosh/URAP.

[Michael Scott]

URAP2'S reason for scumreading me was bad, and I dismantled it. His Saudade read is also bad.

[Michael Scott]

I haven't had the time to do my promised meta dives.

[Michael Scott]

but yeah, I guess it would also fit for shoshin + rc, but god damn i don't want the work of having that set of reads so let's just go back to what I said earlier.

??

[Michael Scott]

You said you're sobered up.

[Michael Scott]

URAP has been blatantly pocketing and attempting to rush the game. And even admits he's going for the easier scumread. Lol

[Michael Scott]

Shoshin.
There's no conflict between the two in terms of reads I think, both attacked Saudade, both seem to be buddying up to you.

I independently feel she's scum anyway.

[Michael Scott]

The biggest indicator is the way she's approaching the game. You can contrast it with yours.

Does town Shoshin push for a quick lynch on my slot being "underwhelming" when I've not been posting as a whole?

Shoshin opened up a Saudade lynch avenue, but isn't pushing there as strongly as she's expected to.

Splint's back on, I'd frankly prefer talking later as well.

[Michael Scott]

Saudade your reads apart from Shoshin? Esp URAP2

[Michael Scott]

And RC? Me?

[Michael Scott]

i realize this doesn't help the case that enter at at least one point made that i'm town with shoshin but hey i still have a wincon to play to

Don't understand this. ELI5?

[Michael Scott]

Talk to me about the paranoia part?
If scum quickhammers they lose lol, they shouldn't.

[Michael Scott]

Enter what's your solve?
Saudade who is her teammate?

[Michael Scott]

Talk to me about the paranoia part?
If scum quickhammers they lose lol, they shouldn't.

why do scum lose for quickhammering?

Obvious guess for Paragons. If Paragons guess correctly scum loses

[Michael Scott]

And why is URAP not a potential partner?

Why can't it be Shoshin+RC?

[Michael Scott]

Correct, assuming optimal play.

[Michael Scott]

Tonally I don't see a difference from her other games, Saudade.

[Michael Scott]

Correct.

There's one possibility where Shoshin is actually town from my expectations of her, but I'm not revealing it at this stage.

[Michael Scott]

How?

[Michael Scott]

You do realize that if I begin to townread Shoshin I'll be re-evaluating RC/Saudade, right?

[Michael Scott]

Quote me saying URAP can't be scum with Shoshin/RC.

[Michael Scott]

That post was AGES ago and I re-evaluated after that.
Saying "MS just said that" is disingenuous.

[Michael Scott]

cannot be partners w/ shoshin due to latest push, MS

just

said urap cannot be scum w/ shoshin or RC

[Michael Scott]

How can you misconstrue that as me saying he's conftown? Wth

[Michael Scott]

rc and shoshin should be enough to recognize him as scum

Still in the process.

[Michael Scott]

I'll explain further in a while.

[Michael Scott]

rc and shoshin should be enough to recognize him as scum

Still in the process.

you're saying you think you need more time on those slots for them to conftown him?

I don't think he's town, and yes - RC at least isn't conftown on him. As RC outlined, BoPing him early isn't useful - which negates that line of thought of mine.

[Michael Scott]

But it looks like neither shoshin nor RC are really scumreading u r a person 2,

Yet

[Michael Scott]

Saude/Shoshin cannot be scum
Michael Scott/Shoshin cannot be scum

so if Shoshin is scum, it is either RC or u r a person 2.

Circular reasoning. Saude can still be Scum, which breaks this. I'm not committing to a definitive solve.

[Michael Scott]

if someone wants to tell me why i'm really dumb and I've got stretch marks all over my case, feel free to let me know

Also consider scum can soft bus a great deal without truly committing to it.

[Michael Scott]

Was RC refraining from speed lynching a towntell for you?

[Michael Scott]

I'm wondering if Enter has a bad read. I've already established that fails to be a town tell.

[Michael Scott]

He was under the impression that scum could speedlynch and win.

[Michael Scott]

I'm confident but not definite, and need to interact with her to check something first.

[Michael Scott]

Does town Shoshin push for a quick lynch on my slot being "underwhelming" when I've not been posting as a whole?

RC, Shoshin has also done this. ^

[Michael Scott]

Boring.

Let's lynch MS.

Auro/Volxen are never this underwhelming.

Even if not voting, suggesting it.

[Michael Scott]

and ms being scummy for the whole im caught up but unaware of things that have happened

I dismantled this and yet he scumreads me for this.
I said I'll catch up.
I asked a question.
Shoshin said she asked it already.
I said alright, might have missed it because I skimmed.

He's pulling an inconsistency from nowhere, not heeding my rebuttal.

[Michael Scott]

Congratulations on being the sole slot who hasn't tried to lynch someone without buy in from me

You immediately receive 50 Shrute bucks

Would be damn hypocritical for me to in any case, considering I'm just getting into the game.

Yay! I give you a million Stanley nickels in turn.

[Michael Scott]

from your perspective, enter's recent line of thinking is obviously bad. This entire question and response to saudade reads fake af

Enter's line of thinking re: scumread on **me** is obviously bad.
His line of thinking re: RC would be bad if this was the basis for it, and would push him to start re-evaluating there.
Even with different win-cons, he's incentivized to find scum as that should give him an auto win, and it's therefore good to communicate and sort out reads.

Calling something fake is the cheapest attack you can make, plus that you're attacking without bothering to engage with me points to it being in bad faith.

[Michael Scott]

you haven't dismantled it. yes, it happened as you described above, but that doesn't stop it from being scummy.

So you admit you're pushing that skimming == scummy?

[Michael Scott]

like the only reason this bullshit doesn't reverse my read on you is because you also hard scum read me in the vengecop that just ended. You were wrong there. You're probably wrong!town here

I'm also getting more confident in town!RC + scum!URAP from this.
RC, I know you want to get townread anyway; but look at the progression of URAP's read on you, ultimately to this: that he *would* scumread you but finds a reason not to.
Talk about unnatural.

[Michael Scott]

How many times are you going to misrep this?

I'm pushing that claiming to have caught up without actually catching up is scummy

Oh, so skimming is not equivalent to catching up in your book.

[Michael Scott]

I'm done with this conversation. If you think using this piece of your game as part of a read on you is scummy, vote me, but going around in circles with you is not enjoyable

No no, go ahead and detail the entirety of your case on me.

I'll wait.

[Michael Scott]

there's nothing in your iso outside of an average scum range

i think rc and shoshin are town

if shoshin isn't town, they probably aren't partners with S.

RC started scum reading me over wanting to vote you, so if he's scum, it's likely with you

the most likely scum team for which lynching you loses the game is {shoshin, RC} and I'd have to really believe that's the team before picking that fight. I don't.

you're probably scum

"nothing outside an average scum range" is a very generic reason for scumreading me I can't rebut - I can offer some self-meta on certain posts/directions I would've rather gone with as scum, but I doubt that'd satisfy you.

You're not outlining what's specifically scummy about me, or to what agenda you can see me playing to.

I take it that the summary of your case on me is simple PoE. Correct?

[Michael Scott]

I could believe Shoshin/Michael Scott. I've been doubting he is town significantly more recently, neither of them will make a real push on each other and Shoshin seems to think she's good enough at reading Saudade to rely on her read there but then won't make a solid push on it.

I cased her, I asked RC repeatedly why he thinks she's town, I brought up that she tried to rush a lynch again a couple pages ago, I maintain I'm confident but not definitive... what constitutes, to your mind, a "real push"? A vote? Because I'm not voting right now.

[Michael Scott]

Ironically, I've already brought up the same point re: her push on Saudade, which you seem to have missed.

[Michael Scott]

Shoshin, don't ignore me.

Explain to me your gross attack on me and your push for my getting lynched when it was clear I wasn't posting anywhere.

[Michael Scott]

I could believe Shoshin/Michael Scott. I've been doubting he is town significantly more recently, neither of them will make a real push on each other and Shoshin seems to think she's good enough at reading Saudade to rely on her read there but then won't make a solid push on it.

I cased her, I asked RC repeatedly why he thinks she's town, I brought up that she tried to rush a lynch again a couple pages ago, I maintain I'm confident but not definitive... what constitutes, to your mind, a "real push"? A vote? Because I'm not voting right now.

"Oh, MS hasn't tried to bum-rush a lynch today by voting, how scummy he must be!!"

[Michael Scott]

Enter, if you're attempting to get me to vote, I'm not.

[Michael Scott]

Also Enter, please outline my solid push on RC/URAP/Saudade.

[Michael Scott]

That's the problem. You don't have a solid push on anyone.

Varying definitions on "pushes". We can't afford a wrong lynch, it's mindless to be careless with my vote.

You're misconstruing pushes for appeals to rush, and I'm trying to engage and solve the game; my positions are clear, and if you don't feel that, feel free to engage with me.

[Michael Scott]

And the annoying part is that while I couldn't post, I was pushed for "not posting", but while I'm finally here and posting and trying to engage, it's like talking to a brick wall in URAP's case, and Shoshin's outright ignoring me.

[Michael Scott]

[Michael Scott]

From my knowledge of her, textbook scummy stuff (like random pushes on someone without engagement, her attempt to rush a lynch counts) she does as town and < rand as scum; and when she does that, the intent is primarily to help achieve a sort, and to test for reactions. I was wondering if her push on me was town-motivated, and that was what I was waiting for her to explain, but her lurking off and ignoring me while popping in to say "I'm waiting for rc" is wolfy.

If I had to lynch right now she's a great bet, but I do want to make sure by seeing what she says. What do you think?

[Michael Scott]

If your solve is MS+Saudade why would you be super opposed?
Unless you're townreading Saudade now?

[Michael Scott]

If your worldview includes all of {Sho, MS}, {Sho, RC}, {MS, Sau}; why even vote and wagon now??

[Michael Scott]

That's the other thing I'm talking about, Shoshin, that was part of your argument in the game we were talking about and he's not talking up his play here

Yeah he is. He's acting like he's never been caught in his life.

Talk to me about me.

[Michael Scott]

If your worldview includes all of {Sho, MS}, {Sho, RC}, {MS, Sau}; why even vote and wagon now??

please don't try and simplify my understanding of the gamestate and reads. Yes, you can say it this way and make it out like I don't have any reads, but I've been clearer than that, and you know it.

We can talk about Sho+RC.

[Michael Scott]

Actually no - I'm gonna be off to bed shortly (My timezones are opposite y'all). See you guys later.

Pedit: Later.

[Michael Scott]

Sorry for not posting. My health took a sudden downturn, and while I'm okay ATM, it's unpredictable and I dunno if my erratic posting affects the game, if that's apparent in a few hours I'll replace out.

[Michael Scott]

Got a look at Shoshin's case and I recall it was based on the premise of Saudade "tryharding"? I don't see Saudade tryharding this game~

Shoshin still ignoring me means her push on me was just opportunism and not with level play to sort me, so still scum.

[Michael Scott]

RC

who have you seen Michael Scott push? like seriously? He even backtracked on his urap townread

You mean I re-evaluated URAP when he did scummy stuff? Oh my, how scummy of me that is!

My original reasoning was "If RC and Shoshin both townread him he must be town"

RC isn't townreading him now, is he?

[Michael Scott]

I'm not ignoring you.

Still haven't explained the shitty push on me.

[Michael Scott]

Shitty things don't have explanation, MS.

So you're saying your push was random, and had no reason, Shoshin?

[Michael Scott]

Are you still townreading Sau, MS?

Haven't checked the meta thing, no time nor energy at this state.
I'll take a look at his ISO again

[Michael Scott]

I need Sau's opinions on players apart from Shoshin.

[Michael Scott]

are we doing this because my body is fucking ready

URAP2's wanting to vote Saudade (and his earlier bringing him to L-1) is interesting. I feel like it's a bluff, because I recall RC saying he didn't want to lynch in Shoshin/Saudade - so, URAP would recognize that he can treat those slots in any manner - and a negative association works better in the long term.

[Michael Scott]

Shitty things don't have explanation, MS.

So you're saying your push was random, and had no reason, Shoshin?

RC you have no reason to scumread this?

[Michael Scott]

You're townreading URAP and scumreading me now? Why?

[Michael Scott]

^Yeah but I didn't even have a chance to get in to the game, and your push on me was just PoE so it's a weak equivalence.

[Michael Scott]

I'm not ignoring you.

Still haven't explained the shitty push on me.

Shitty things don't have explanation, MS.

RC, does town Shoshin do this?

[Michael Scott]

Town Shoshin is thoughful and meticulous.

[Michael Scott]

well i wouldn't characterize it as rushing, but rather looking to achieve a lynch at precisely the correct time and speed

I'm saying you can't characterise it this way, URAP.

[Michael Scott]

It's game losing.

There's higher scum motivation in doing that than town motivation.

[Michael Scott]

You're still hard townreading RC, correct?

[Michael Scott]

if you are town, it's shoshin + suade

You think their 1v1 was fabricated scum theater?

[Michael Scott]

If you think I'm town, you're entertaining the possibility of Sho+Sau -> their interactions would have to be scum theater.

[Michael Scott]

I'm sorry if I come across that way. If you feel I've been interacting in bad faith, I'll try changing that.

[Michael Scott]

if you are town, it's shoshin + suade

I'm just exploring this possibility, from my PoV, assuming you're town.

[Michael Scott]

If we both can reach consensus on it, in the universe where Sho+Sau is the solve, it's good, no?

[Michael Scott]

His ISO is objectively crap, he's been tunneled on Shoshin and is refusing to sort the other players as far as I can see. However, I was hung up on a Saudade/Shoshin dichotomy where one of them could only be scum, and I have reasons (I stated) to scumread Shoshin.

I didn't quite entertain the notion of them being a team gambiting hard so far, which I'm doing rn

[Michael Scott]

I mean their extended 1v1 was probably going to result in a lynch between them... No? Or they predicted RC was gonna behave the way he did.

[Michael Scott]

MS do you legitimately believe that Sho/Sau is a solve?

Not sure. I believed that Sho/Sau *cannot* be a solve so far, I'm trying to see if I was wrong.

[Michael Scott]

Thing is, URAP+Sau as a white flag gambit makes more sense to me, because he admits he knew RC wasn't gonna vote, and if he thinks RC is town he needs RC's vote, and knows he won't be getting it.

[Michael Scott]

Like I'm pretty tempted to call the bluff right now

[Michael Scott]

Thing is, URAP+Sau as a white flag gambit makes more sense to me, because he admits he knew RC wasn't gonna vote, and if he thinks RC is town he needs RC's vote, and knows he won't be getting it.

again with the blatant distortion of my words.

Didn't you say you expected him not to vote?

[Michael Scott]

Thing is, URAP+Sau as a white flag gambit makes more sense to me, because he admits he didn't expect RC wasn't gonna vote, and if he thinks RC is town he needs RC's vote, and knows he won't be getting it.

Fine, Fixed it.

[Michael Scott]

Like can you really, for a moment, say that scum!me is sure about anything RC is going to do?

Well, I think it's a pretty reasonable expectation that RC wouldn't hammer someone in that gamestate? Or even now.

[Michael Scott]

So if you know RC's town, you can gambit all you want and unvote eventually.

[Michael Scott]

I saw their exchanges as locking themselves into a vote - an extended 1v1 beyond a simple vote gambit. Like, making it a "you have to vote for one of us" situation, where clawing out of that and voting someone else would require a very forced progression. Can you see the difference?

[Michael Scott]

If your worlds are shoshin + suade

and me + suade

When did I eliminate URAP+Shoshin?

[Michael Scott]

Like I get that you have to push me.

RC is not being lynched today.
Neither RC nor I is going to vote shoshin today
RC might push me today

I'm your only option

In theory I'm ready to place a vote there, but I expect RC to not hammer. There's no cost to me for not gambiting right now if I'm a scum partner... Right?

[Michael Scott]

my bad I guess you didn't. Do you think shoshin and I are the scum team?

Pretty plausible, considering both of you are hard pushing Sau, and your egging me to vote there, and mutual townreads, and initial combined hard push on me.

[Michael Scott]

VOTE: Saudade

Do you still think the same?

[Michael Scott]

Hmm RC may not vote but Shoshin is locked on Saude scum and if the team's URAP+Shoshin she's gonna vote there...

[Michael Scott]

UNVOTE:

[Michael Scott]

If URAP+Shoshin then I'm taking the bait by voting there
If Shoshin+Saudade I'm showing you I can vote, yeah

[Michael Scott]

I'm not content with a Saude lynch while also considering URAP+Shoshin as a viable solve, I knew RC wouldn't hammer but realized Shoshin could quickhammer.

[Michael Scott]

Because in your mind, it dispels the notion of a MS+Saudade team you've been confbiased on if I keep my vote there?

[Michael Scott]

You're locking me on to a certain course of action and I'm town, and saying the only reason I wouldn't do said action is being scum with them.

[Michael Scott]

Ugh whatever

VOTE: Saudade

[Michael Scott]

Because in your mind, it dispels the notion of a MS+Saudade team you've been confbiased on if I keep my vote there?

We need a third vote as well, if you're town.

[Michael Scott]

Because in your mind, it dispels the notion of a MS+Saudade team you've been confbiased on if I keep my vote there?

We need a third vote as well, if you're town.

And if you're scum, there must be some point at which you have to admit I'm not gambiting right now.

[Michael Scott]

so town you doesn't want to vote for suade right now, you're still sorting.

so town you either ignores me pushing you to vote, or explains why you're not ready to vote there or calls me scummy for shading you for not voting when why the fuck would you if you think shoshin + me is a high chance

but what town you doesn't fucking do is try to prove to your scum read that you're town by voting for his scum read

Lol, so if I don't vote, I'm partners with Saudade and hence not voting therefore scum.
If I vote, I didn't ignore your goading me, therefore scum.

[Michael Scott]

No - I'm forcing you to back off of bad pushes you're trying to make, given the knowledge that a quickhammer won't happen (which, I realize now that Shoshin *may* quickhammer but she loses then from Paragon guess so w/e)

[Michael Scott]

And I'm not just "proving to you", I'm showing I can take that stance to the whole game.

[Michael Scott]

I don't think you're reading that right. Not voting was the townie play. It didn't make you scum. Yes I was going to continue to goad you, but no one in this game would seriously believe that you having two separate worlds that you're considering and thus not voting someone to L-1 is the reason you're scummy

Doesn't this logic apply to you as well?

[Michael Scott]

You underestimate my stubbornness.

[Michael Scott]

My biggest reason for SHO+URAP not being a team is that it seems too obvious.

[Michael Scott]

game set and
match

?

[Michael Scott]

his partner is likely not Shoshin

Why?

[Michael Scott]

It's not a bluff.

@Saudade, haww, that's my GIF!

[Michael Scott]

Nice scum theater.

[Michael Scott]

Uh uh.

[Michael Scott]

There ya go. I called your bluff, and you just ranted that I'm scum for it, and unvoted and voted me

[Michael Scott]

Good.

[Michael Scott]

UNVOTE:

[Michael Scott]

i just want to point out

that michael scott has never voted urap

I've not voted anybody except Saudade.

VOTE: URAP2

[Michael Scott]

UNVOTE:

Whatever.

[Michael Scott]

Like everyone keeps accusing me of being buddies with X because I didn't vote X, or didn't "push hardly" or some shit.

[Michael Scott]

who do you think the scumteam is right now and why

URAP+Saudade is where I'm at, I still think they were gambiting - URAP goaded me into a vote but he knows you're virtually in control of the lynch so the risk is worth taking. Then Saudade hard scumread him for the push and called for a flash lynch on him, and interestingly, both have a solve of the other + my slot from PoE, I was expecting them to "compromise" onto my slot soon. URAP proceeded to vote me but Saudade's stance hasn't evolved to that point yet.

URAP+Shoshin is also a less likely possibility IMO, considering the activity patterns: Shoshin hammering Saudade would be a stupid move if she's scum with him, since the Paragons could easily guess the team.

[Michael Scott]

i was in newbie #1668

So?

[Michael Scott]

I see. So you're actually more sure on URAP than you are on Saudade at this point, then?

Yes.

[Michael Scott]

I was also in newbie #1671

Checked and I don't see common players. What are you getting at?

[Michael Scott]

I do think that i have a single scumread i can be sure on at this juncture

i'm not quite sure as to the partner right now

but

good enough

right?

Who?

[Michael Scott]

secret. i want scum to tremble in their boots.

Fair enough.

[Michael Scott]

check post #s lol

That you post high?

[Michael Scott]

Ohhh. Ah nevermind