Mini Normal 2062: Erinnerungen (um game over)

[L84Dnr]

Who’s he distancing from?

John Marv slot?

Nope, this is his Day 2 stuff, so either you or TLK.

[L84Dnr]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

I'm reading him as slightly less scummy. He could just be n00b town. Still in my scum pile though.

Right now I'm favouring our sleepless friend. The reasoning behind his vote is rubbish and smells synthetic.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Insomnia

[insomnia]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

VOTE: Wilky

His single post consists of a naked vote with no explanation, rhyme, or reason.

Who doesn't like a sleepless friend, I'm always here.

My vote is there to apply pressure since me and urap2 have a bit of experience with each other and we have a certain synergy. My votes are mostly put to generate reads, I'm inclined to believe your votes are just like mine, correct me if I'm wrong.

[insomnia]

Ignore the quotes lol

[L84Dnr]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

VOTE: Wilky

His single post consists of a naked vote with no explanation, rhyme, or reason.

Who doesn't like a sleepless friend, I'm always here.

My vote is there to apply pressure since me and urap2 have a bit of experience with each other and we have a certain synergy. My votes are mostly put to generate reads, I'm inclined to believe your votes are just like mine, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm confused here. What's the quoted text for?

[insomnia]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

VOTE: Wilky

His single post consists of a naked vote with no explanation, rhyme, or reason.

Who doesn't like a sleepless friend, I'm always here.

My vote is there to apply pressure since me and urap2 have a bit of experience with each other and we have a certain synergy. My votes are mostly put to generate reads, I'm inclined to believe your votes are just like mine, correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm confused here. What's the quoted text for?

It was a mistake on my part, still getting used to the forum stuff, really don't know how I pulled that off, quotes weren't supposed to be there

[insomnia]

L8, how did you end up slightly town reading burken? I'm asking because I'm tring him as well but for other reasons, I'm interested in the progression of your read. I feel like we should keep Burk in check, his lack of presence is concerning and it makes me doubt my read on him.

[insomnia]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

1025
But the difference between his play style and mine is that I am a little bit more active than him and am more reckless. I'm still tring him, I don't believe a Burk lynch is good today, I'm waiting for more posts from him.

[Dr Easy Bake]

So why is Burkenstock Scum?

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

Weren't you?

[Vedith]

So why is Burkenstock Scum?

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

Weren't you?

Well considering they were the counter wagon to Wilky and if I'm going to take in merit you are less likely as Scum I think Scum didn't want Burk killed and helped push the Wilky lynch.

Shiidaji and FL I think are town though.
It doesn't make sense for Burken as Scum alone on that wagon though so I want to see people reading as town and see if it makes sense.

Trying to quote something that happened pre flip and NK to call out a post before respnses can be made is bad and in really trying to go with you as not Scum here.

Do you still Scum read Burken?

[Flavor Leaf]

I have plenty of games where I literally state my waiting to pounce line. I think my last town game and last scum game were both a little unorthodox. I think I’m going through a style change.

[Vedith]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

1025
But the difference between his play style and mine is that I am a little bit more active than him and am more reckless. I'm still tring him, I don't believe a Burk lynch is good today, I'm waiting for more posts from him.

So outside of URA where should I be voting?

[Vedith]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

I'm reading him as slightly less scummy. He could just be n00b town. Still in my scum pile though.

Right now I'm favouring our sleepless friend. The reasoning behind his vote is rubbish and smells synthetic.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Insomnia

Okay I had you as probably town yesterday, haven't decided if I keep that yet today.
What's difference of noob town and noob Scum?

[Dr Easy Bake]

My stance on a scummy Brother Sandal has not changed. The flip and NK didn't change that. He hasn't been able to convince me otherwise.

[Burkenstock]

Hey everyone I haven't had the chance to read yet since our return. I have 3 midterms this week so I won't be as active for a bit. I do have to admit that we seem to have fucked up in losing such a powerful ally but we still got a night scum kill so I have even less of a clue about what kind of roles and distribution we have.

[insomnia]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

1025
But the difference between his play style and mine is that I am a little bit more active than him and am more reckless. I'm still tring him, I don't believe a Burk lynch is good today, I'm waiting for more posts from him.

So outside of URA where should I be voting?

~A TLK lynch will provide some information. His main interactions were with FL in the first posts of his. Scum don't usually talk with each other or ask each other questions that much, so if TLK flips scum, then FL is probably town, which would be of great help with my reads, since I find FL to be a hard read. If he flips town, then his read on Burk is legit and we get rid of an easy mislynch coming from scum and anyone pushing Burk would be automatically suspicious.

~I advocate a L8 lynch because he's been pushing the same slots as TLK has, except for Flippy. They have both focused on scum hunting amongst lurkers (Scepticism / John Marv) and they have also both voted for FL, once again. So if one of them flips scum, the other has a high chance of being scum. If TLK flips scum, L8 becomes suspicious for trying to derail the wagon that Shidaji, an

informed townie

claim day 1 is trying to start on TLK. Another reason as to why I feel L8 is a good lynch is because, looking at his ISO I can see him being very reluctant when it comes to pushing anyone. He votes and then unvotes and doesn't insist on a lynch. Also, he was not on the wilky wagon, which I know sounds weird, but from my experience, scum don't hop on wagons day one because they think they get extra town points. Especially when they say stuff like:

Spoiler:

I think Wilky/L8 probably has some scum in them.

Curious. I'm leaning town on Wilky. What's your thinking here?

And when Wilky's wagon builds up momentum, he says this:

Spoiler:

I feel like L8’s defending Wilky because I’m scum leaning Wilky, and this trying to hatchet me out of it so I can’t push my scum reads without having it turn on me.

I'm ambivalent on Wilky.

Give me your read on John Marv.

This tells me he could've been unsure of Wilky and thought he could've been the traitor. It's not hard to believe, given that he's been pushing low activity players this whole game instead of focusing on the active pool. It's really easy to form reads and call out scum within lurkers because they aren't there. L8 didn't really game solve, he's been pushing my slot and Burken's for ages now, his only active pool push was FL and he backed out immediately, unvoting FL after 2 posts of his.

[insomnia]

I'll be here for like half an hour, feel free to ask me any questions, tomorrow I'll have an exam simulation and I have to prepare

[The Last Knight]

MY MAIN ISSUE WITH TLK TOWNIES PAY ATTENTION XOXOXOXOXO :::HEART:::

First, start with post 1128. This is TLK's response to D2 pressure, it's a decent response tonally. My scumread still lies with his justification of a Wilkis vote D1. Follow along as I explain!!!

In 1128 TLK just said that he needed to do a Wilky read to see how he felt about Wilky before voting, see underlined:

deb yeehaw'ing onto the hammer honestly felt expected/in-character to me

tlk dropping the thing that was on his mind (putting together a URA case) to just suddenly convince himself that wilkis is a good vote and throw together a lame case did not feel expected/in-character to me

ill put together my tlk thoughts tn my people need me

Okay that is a fair point. I was looking into doing a urap2 read

and saw I needed to do a Wilky read

. I knew Wilky's iso was significantly shorter, so I went there first. Put down a vote. And then the day ended 10 minutes later. I never had a chance to do a urap2 iso. I still intend to but have not bothered to yet, seeing as I have more pressing matters in this thread to address (e.g. Flips, Nips, and clever quips). But I do not deny a very sudden mental shift in my posts that did not get explained well. I hope that clears it up for you.

Let's go back then. TLK ISO'd and voted Wilky on

March 15th

.

Spoiler: March 15th

I'll also take another look at Wilky since there's a wagon, but I don't think he's scum. Any posts I should look at?

The bold part: why is he so insistent (multiple posts make this point) on point out that sometimes new players make new mistakes if they're scum? It could be the case, but Burke plays mafia plenty and was asking technical questions. Anything else is as likely a ploy as it is scum. The debate on Burke is definitely convincing but I want to see it out. He can come across as scummy to me and still be town.

Right I'll L-2 this it's within my lynch pool anyway

VOTE: Flippynips

Seems eager to end day by wagoning. Not an inherently scummy trait but Wilky never seemed to show Nips much attention before this.

VOTE: Burke

That's L2

Once again a wagon. But it feels desperate more so than actual scum reading. He has shown interest in Burke before and, yeah, it seems the Icy Nips wagon is no more, but ultimately Wilky is just following the group.

Wilky makes no comments on why he isn't scum. I'd like to see some sort of defense made by Wilky against everyone's accusations. I just see no real intentions behind Wilky's actions. They seem so hallow, like Wilky is ebbing with the flow of the group. Nothing more. Trying to convince us that he is of a like mind. Wilky even used such terms when u r a person 2 found they were mind-melding. That is probably just a wolf pouncing on a sheep who has fallen for the wool pulled over its eyes.

I'll vote there.

VOTE: Wilky

The thing is, TLK claims that he had

already

just finished an ISO of him in 785 on

March 14th

, one real-life day before his vote post.

Spoiler: March 14th

Just did an iso on Wilky and he seems town to me.

So let's all put on our thinking caps and break this timeline down::::::

(Post 785 March 14, 05 PM) TLK ISO's Wilky, TLK thinks Wilky is town

(Post 950 March 15, 12 PM) TLK will take another look at Wilky, but he still thinks Wilky is town

(Post 959 March 15, 01 PM) TLK makes a big vote post for Wilky


Inbetween 785 and 950, there were

ZERO WILKIS POSTS

. What does that mean? That means that

the Wilkis ISO had not changed at ALL

ever since his first read through the day prior. There were however,

four votes for Wilkis

inbetween 785 and 950. Remember, I replaced in at that time. URA even voted for Wilkis in-between 950 and 959, making it five votes.

Conclusion

TLK fabricated his Wilkis scumread as an opportunistic vote when he noticed the town flow pushing towards a Wilkis lynch.

It's completely possible for your read on a player to shift over time. Flavor Leaf did on L8. It is however absurd to imagine that TLK thought Wilky was Town, then on a re-read confidently proclaimed Wilky as scum,

with no new Wilkis posts to help change his mind

.

Finally we'll take a look at his vote post in a second so I can talk about why it's scummy.

TLK feels like self-conscious scum to me here and I will try to explain why. Despite originally townreading Wilky's ISO, then scumreading that same ISO now, TLK makes no mention of what changed his mind in the first place. What he liked before that he didn't like now. Instead, he makes incisive comments that have not been mentioned before in what feels like an effort to be original.

Also, after TLK typed "wool over its eyes.", he thought it necessary to press enter, type "I'll vote there.", press enter AGAIN, and then vote Wilky. This doesn't feel like the TLK I was introduced to at the beginning of the game, it's self-conscious. I have personally found some newbie scum to be afraid of just outright sheeping or naked voting, especially those that have not established a "Creature"-like sense of quick posting. To them, it would seem out of character to just quick vote. Thus they overcompensate with posts like this.

You must have missed this one. Is this the post that explains my thought process, or is there any further self-iso-ing I need to do?

I'll also take another look at Wilky since there's a wagon, but I don't think he's scum. Any posts I should look at?

New evidence came to light. I looked at him with ideas others had in mind. And, like you pointed out in my vote post, I mainly wanted to force him to talk. DEB hammered before he did, but that's just because this is kinda a newbie game. My intention was to get info while maybe ending the day.

That's honestly all you're going to get from my VA.

(p.s. My posts get submitted or previewed constantly to check the format.

Especially

when I use spoilers, which I did above. I thought I'd touch on that point too, even if it is kind of random. All my votes have lots of analysis, so it isn't a break in pattern at all.)

[insomnia]

@TLK what's your opinion on L8?

[The Last Knight]

I like your post about him. He does seem wishy-washy at times. It's a good case. I'll look into it though because I did think he was trying to game solve for awhile and I want to see where you thought he wasn't.

I like looking at ISO's a second time with someone else's point of view to see if I can get there given the same information.

[The Last Knight]

Just to be clear about the big quote-fest above:

The reason I looked at Wilky again wasn't because he or I said anything, it was because others were talking about Wilky.

[L84Dnr]

L8, how did you end up slightly town reading burken? I'm asking because I'm tring him as well but for other reasons, I'm interested in the progression of your read. I feel like we should keep Burk in check, his lack of presence is concerning and it makes me doubt my read on him.

I'm not town-reading him. I'm reading him a slightly less scummy. Down from a strong scum lean to a moderate scum lean.

His Day 1 play was almost entirely reactive. Lots of OMGUS and sheeping. He showed a little original thinking toward end of Day phase that improved my opinion of him very slightly.

Nothing today, which may be NAI may be scummy.

[L84Dnr]

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

I'm reading him as slightly less scummy. He could just be n00b town. Still in my scum pile though.

Right now I'm favouring our sleepless friend. The reasoning behind his vote is rubbish and smells synthetic.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Insomnia

Okay I had you as probably town yesterday, haven't decided if I keep that yet today.
What's difference of noob town and noob Scum?

N00b town is typically excitable, full of questions, running about and crapping on the carpet.
N00b scum is lurky, reactive, lying low and being very careful to keep off the carpet.

I'm reading Burkenstock as a lot more like the latter than the former but he's come up a very small notch for me. I'd still be content to see him eat rope.

[L84Dnr]

~I advocate a L8 lynch because he's been pushing the same slots as TLK has, except for Flippy.

Not just because I have a vote on you?

If TLK flips scum, L8 becomes suspicious for trying to derail the wagon

By what reasoning is it scummy to not sheep Shidaji's vote?

that Shidaji, an

informed townie

claim day 1 is trying to start on TLK.

How do you read John Marv?

Another reason as to why I feel L8 is a good lynch is because, looking at his ISO I can see him being very reluctant when it comes to pushing anyone. He votes and then unvotes and doesn't insist on a lynch.

You mean aside from Burkenstock and Shiidaji? Nice misrep.

Also, he was not on the wilky wagon, which I know sounds weird, but from my experience, scum don't hop on wagons day one because they think they get extra town points.

Only if you're an idiot. Much safer on the wagon for scum. I stated flat out that I wasn't going to vote Wilky and stuck to it. Scum don't commit that way. They're wishy-washy.

But hey, thanks for helping confirm that my vote has a good home.

[insomnia]

You mean aside from Burkenstock and Shiidaji? Nice misrep

Spoiler:

I'd be willing to wagon Burkenstock to see what some real pressure does. I'm scumreading him for a variety of reasons.

Low content one-liners including a lot of information instead of analysis.

Plays the n00b card but plays it wrong and inconsistently:

Also can we all agree that Flavor Leaf would never claim what he actuly is this early on and the fact that he chose a town faction only underlines that he is.. excuse me.. full of shit?

His thinking is sophisticated enough to call BS on Leaf's "hardclaim"

Don't certain roles get their own chats? I feel like people who probably talked early but then haven't been participating are scum plotting their secrets. I could be wrong about this..

But n000b enough to wonder if scum are plotting in secret? I have a hard time reconciling those.

He also isn't acting like a typical n00b, which is to ask wall-o-text questions, especially

The N00B Question

, and then keep asking them. He doesn't have a single vote, not even in RVS, until he starts dropping OMGUS votes and then discovers how to PDQ. All his votes and unvotes are naked and purely reflexive. His few reads are bare accusations with no reasoning to back them up. It's hard to get him to reply and when he does they're minimal, evasive, or even Q4Q. I'm getting close to BINGO on his card.

What does everybody think about voting him up to L-2 and asking him to produce a detailed reads list?

VOTE: Burkenstock

Burkenstock's my bet too. I can make a case for Flippy but not nearly as strong a case.

Scepticism's been awfully quiet for somebody who voted based on low activity.

VOTE: Scepticism

Hey Scepticism, pipe up! Hopefully before you get replaced.

VOTE: Burkenstock

Let’s just end the day then.

That I can get behind.

VOTE: Burkenstock

Does this look like a scumslip to anybody else?

In addition John Marv slot is town...

Here's John Marv's total contribution to the game:

VOTE: L84Dnr wagon

Vedith Persivul maybe town

Hallo

Three whole posts that you could type in under a minute. I can't fathom how Shiidaji is getting a town read so solid that he can state that "John Marv is town" with such certainty out of those three lines.

...so when Scepticism replaced and posted it reassured me of this because he felt the same way as I did skimming through.

And then goes on to laud Scepticism, who has only been marginally more active and whose first act was to vote Wilky based on what I consider to be rubbish reasoning. Possible scumwagon?

Something is fundamentally wrong here and Shiidaji needs to explain it. I don't like to do this to somebody replacing in but this is a whole lot of red flags.

VOTE: Shiidaji

So who's reading Burkenstock as town and why?

I'm reading him as slightly less scummy. He could just be n00b town. Still in my scum pile though.

Right now I'm favouring our sleepless friend. The reasoning behind his vote is rubbish and smells synthetic.

UNVOTE:

VOTE: Insomnia

Starting to get a little defensive with that swearing. Doesn't help. Also, you aren't even aware of the actions you've taken, which further proves my point that even you don't have a solid scum read and you're just fooling around. You don't even know where your vote's at and where it was.

VOTE: L84DNR