Open 74 - C/9ths (Game Over!) before 601

[ZombieSlayer54]

When someone is at L-1, it is a good idea for them to claim if they are a powerrole, lest they be lynched and their abilities lost to the town.

[dcorbe]

Why shouldn't he claim? If it does him no good to claim right now, it does him no harm either. There's people here who keep proclaiming that they get a pro-town vibe from EL but so far have not said much of anything else in his defense. I would like those people to explain themselves as well.

...

So, @EL: Claim now, tells us why we should believe you or be lynched!

Please see TSN's reasoning for why a claim from EL wouldn't make sense.

I read TSN's post and I disagree with him wholeheartedly. Further, I don't need to be referred to the thread again like I haven't been following along, or that I don't understand what's going on here. I may be a noob but I'm not a complete idiot.

I'll sum it up... if EL is a doc he can do nothing to convince us. In the C/9ths setup, there's no such thing as a counterclaim so we'll have no reason to believe his claim. And if we

do

decide against a lynch, the scum will simply shoot him tonight and we'll be out a doc anyway.

No, a claim is a bad idea, dcorbe.

Eldritch has put enough time into analysis and scumhunting to count as protown on D1. New-scum just aren't that aggressive. By and large, they are lurkers, and that's one thing we can't accuse him of.

[/quote]

How does this make him pro town? Calling out a lurker is one of the easier things to do in this game. Scum can use that as a tactic to hide their scuminess just as much as a townie can use that as a tactic to prod people.

A claim is a bad idea only if it hurts him. How does claiming right now hurt him? Short answer: it doesn't

Your next question might be: How does it help him? It really doesn't if we don't believe him; however, I (and most would agree) that it's a good idea to at least wait for a claim before dropping the hammer. This gives him time to plead his case, gives us time to listen to counter arguments from EL supporters (and there are apparently EL supporters here), and most importantly it gives him time to build a counter case as well.


You ignored the point I made about the social engineering aspects of this game.

[mike-zim]

Donkeyz doesnt seem scum to me. if he was and EL was town why not vote for him and get him to L-1. or they are both scum and he is trying to get the spot light off EL to try and save him.

I will have to reread and have a look at that situation.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

A claim is a bad idea only if it hurts him. How does claiming right now hurt him? Short answer: it doesn't

Actually, it does. Or at least it hurts the town, which el is a part of.

Consider his three possible claiming options: Cop, Doc, vanilla townie.

No matter what the claim is, we can't tell if its true. There isn't going to be a counterclaim (well, there might be, but then we'd just have a fool). So our decision to lynch him can't be based on the claim. Which takes away all the benefits of claiming. The only way el isn't getting lynched is if he argues away from it on his own merits.

Considering that, a claim only hurts us. If he claims vanilla, scum know who not to kill, if he claims a power role, scum know who to kill.

Dcorbe picks up some more scum points for rolefishing.

[sideney]

I agree with TheSweatpantsNinja, Dcorbe's rolefishing is very scummy. My case against the pair El and TSN is gone. For now.

[dcorbe]

A claim is a bad idea only if it hurts him. How does claiming right now hurt him? Short answer: it doesn't

Actually, it does. Or at least it hurts the town, which el is a part of.

Consider his three possible claiming options: Cop, Doc, vanilla townie.

No matter what the claim is, we can't tell if its true. There isn't going to be a counterclaim (well, there might be, but then we'd just have a fool). So our decision to lynch him can't be based on the claim. Which takes away all the benefits of claiming. The only way el isn't getting lynched is if he argues away from it on his own merits.

Considering that, a claim only hurts us. If he claims vanilla, scum know who not to kill, if he claims a power role, scum know who to kill.

Dcorbe picks up some more scum points for rolefishing.

I agree with TheSweatpantsNinja, Dcorbe's rolefishing is very scummy. My case against the pair El and TSN is gone. For now.

Telling me how I'm "picking up scum points" isn't going to get me to back down. I still disagree with you. I'm not fishing for a counterclaim from anyone. I'm fishing for arguments against an EL lynch, which so far you and mokina have failed to provide other than to say that "EL is town" and then pick on me for my play style in an attempt to divert the town's attention away from EL.

Seriously, why shouldn't we lynch el? We've already heard what El has to say, but the rest of his supporters seem not to have opinions.

And I couldn't possibly disagree with you more about your stance on a claim. I'm of the opinion that it's ALWAYS appropriate to claim.

-Daniel

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I think el is town because I'm not convinced by the arguments that el is scum, and the odds are in favor of him being town.

But regarding claiming, appropriate and pro-town are not the same. Make an argument that it is in the towns interest to have anyone claim in this setup day 1.

[dcorbe]

I think el is town because I'm not convinced by the arguments that el is scum, and the odds are in favor of him being town.

But regarding claiming, appropriate and pro-town are not the same. Make an argument that it is in the towns interest to have anyone claim in this setup day 1.

If you're so unconvinced of the arguments that EL is scum, he must have said or done SOMETHING worthy of dismissing the arguments of his aggressors in your mind.

If you're so adamant that El has a pro-town role, and the rest of us are so wrong, why aren't you trying to do more to convince us not to push the El wagon any further? Why can't you stand up and make a pro-el argument instead of repeating the words "El is not scum" over and over again.

While we're on the subject, your play style is short and bursty posting which really doesn't seem to clarify your positions on anything at all. The only thing you've done so far is cast doubt and shift suspicion around. You attempts to say the absolute minimum possible to explain your positions aren't very helpful to the rest of us.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

I think he's town because nothing he's done makes me think he's scum. Darla's case is that he's been jumping around, which, as I've already said, I don't have a huge problem with on day 1. Not all of his scum selections have been bandwagons, either.

Please engage and respond prior to telling me I haven't said anything as to why EL is town. And more to the point, he hasn't said or done something to dispel the arguments,

the arguments are poor.

And yes, my playstyle is short posts. I don't like writing long posts, and I definitely don't like reading them.

[dcorbe]

I think he's town because nothing he's done makes me think he's scum. Darla's case is that he's been jumping around, which, as I've already said, I don't have a huge problem with on day 1. Not all of his scum selections have been bandwagons, either.

Please engage and respond prior to telling me I haven't said anything as to why EL is town. And more to the point, he hasn't said or done something to dispel the arguments,

the arguments are poor.

And yes, my playstyle is short posts. I don't like writing long posts, and I definitely don't like reading them.

Unfortunately, Darla isn't the only person here who has picked up the El wagon and pushed it. You're trying to disarm me by pretending that you've said anything of substance so far.

[dcorbe]

Look dude,

We could keep arguing back and fourth for the next 3 pages or you could provide some fresh insight into this problem. That's all I want is to hear some fresh opinions on the El wagon.

When El comes back from V/LA I'm sure he'll have something to say in his defense as well.

[DarlaBlueEyes]

I agree with TSN here, a claim isn't going to help us any.


If anyone is stupid enough to counter claim him (when we could have multiple copies of the same role) the scum know who to kill.

The detriments outway the benefits.

[Eldritch Lord]

I am back from V/LA, however, upon reading the last few posts I'm starting to wonder why dcorbe is so aggressive with a wagon that's close to lynch anyway. Is this a town tactic I am unaware of? Doesn't seem like it.

Beyond that, I have to agree with TSN, I feel like the points made against me are rather and so ill-defined that I find myself hard-pressed to argue them:

Darla, I believe you are town (my eye is more on dcorbe and Iron Man and to a lesser extent-Mokina), however I am forced to bring to attention the fact that the main reason I am being hunted is because of your persistence in wanting me lynched. You seem to want me lynched because I am "wishy-washy"--the same can be said about Mokina, Dcorbe, and even to a lesser extent, yourself (even though I appreciate your temporary willingness to accept the fact that I may not be scum). I want to know what is special about me? Is there anything that goes beyond my "vote-hopping" playstyle? I also agree with TSN on this, this is Day 1, I see no lynch/NK patterns so the only thing I have to go on is gut feeling.

I am fairly certain my wagon is made up of some of the most obviously (to me) lurker/anti-towners in this game. Iron Man's vote is still sitting on me--he posts very little to nothing besides a vote, avoids the conflict and doesn't post substance because he's afraid if he says something wrong he'll get lynched. Mike-Zim is one out of my (5?) votes and has said directly that it is based on gut-feeling more than anything else. I'm almost positive that at least 1/2 of the scum in this game are people on my wagon.

Darla, re-read dcorbe and mokina--they have similar voting patterns and posting styles that I do. Look at how much dcorbe wants a claim, and how pushy he was before you unvoted me. I can't possibly imagine what you're calling me out on, quote me please or something so that I actually have something to defend myself against.

I've spent so much time defending myself that I rarely get an opportunity to scum-hunt, but when you took your vote off me look at what I contributed to Town (those posts are some of the most comprehensive, non-gut based posts this entire game). I urge Zombie-Slayer to do the same and try to forget our confrontation (that was more personal than anything game related) and see if he can come to a conclusion.

Darla, you pushed my wagon initially, but it seems now that dcorbe has become the head of the wagon, and is pushing ceaselessly for claims/a lynch. This goes from setting up the next mislynch to speaking with utter certainty that I would be lynched when I was at L-1.

Good to be back in the game, just wish I wasn't always so close to getting lynched.

[Eldritch Lord]

If you're so adamant that El has a pro-town role, and the rest of us are so wrong, why aren't you trying to do more to convince us not to push the El wagon any further? Why can't you stand up and make a pro-el argument instead of repeating the words "El is not scum" over and over again.

If you're so adamant that I am scum (you are pushing my wagon harder than Darla) then why don't you post some of your own reasoning as to why I am?

You're trying desperately at this point to cover up the fact that you're scum and you almost got yourself busted by diverting attention onto me simply because I acknowledged that a couple of my recent actions could possibly be perceived as scummy. You read my last posts and figured that I was your quick out, so now you're trying to build a case against me by twisting my words and actions to mean something that they do not.

Unvote
Vote: Eldritch Lord

In the only post you have against me, all you do is accuse me of straw-manning you. This is slight

OMGUS

with a little actual reasoning mixed in. I think I am dead on when I read you in my post against you, which is why I'm keeping my vote for you--I do not believe I misinterpreted your intentions. It was a good thorough post, and I think it deserves a re-read by members of the town.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

Unfortunately, Darla isn't the only person here who has picked up the El wagon and pushed it. You're trying to disarm me by pretending that you've said anything of substance so far.

You're trying to disarm me by pretending I haven't. But you're right, there are four others on that wagon: Iron man and mike-zim are followers, zombie lord is voting for him because he doesn't like him, and your case is mostly "he voted for me in a way I didn't like," which is, as el says, OMGUS.

PS: You seem to have dropped the claim issue? Still in favor?

[Elmo]

Note: Eldritch Lord's vote (as such) for himself in 363 will not be counted.

[Eldritch Lord]

Note: Eldritch Lord's vote (as such) for himself in 363 will not be counted.

Thank you, it was an honest mistake and I had no intention of voting for myself. Needless to say, I'm still waiting for impressions as to dcorbe's haste in lynching/pushing for a claim from other players.

[Mokina]

If anyone is stupid enough to counter claim him (when we could have multiple copies of the same role) the scum know who to kill.

Agreed. Even if nobody else counterclaims him, the scum know he's a power role. If the town doesn't kill him, the scum will. The proposed roleclaim gives no new information.

[dcorbe]

Unfortunately, Darla isn't the only person here who has picked up the El wagon and pushed it. You're trying to disarm me by pretending that you've said anything of substance so far.

You're trying to disarm me by pretending I haven't. But you're right, there are four others on that wagon: Iron man and mike-zim are followers, zombie lord is voting for him because he doesn't like him, and your case is mostly "he voted for me in a way I didn't like," which is, as el says, OMGUS.

PS: You seem to have dropped the claim issue? Still in favor?

Of course I'm still in favor of a claim

[dcorbe]

If anyone is stupid enough to counter claim him (when we could have multiple copies of the same role) the scum know who to kill.

Agreed. Even if nobody else counterclaims him, the scum know he's a power role. If the town doesn't kill him, the scum will. The proposed roleclaim gives no new information.

If he's a power role and he gets lynched we lose it anyways.

[Eldritch Lord]

If anyone is stupid enough to counter claim him (when we could have multiple copies of the same role) the scum know who to kill.

Agreed. Even if nobody else counterclaims him, the scum know he's a power role. If the town doesn't kill him, the scum will. The proposed roleclaim gives no new information.

If he's a power role and he gets lynched we lose it anyways.

You say this with utter certainty that I will be lynched today if I don't claim, when its already been said several times that claiming is useless. I will not claim, because it is not a certainty I will get lynched.

It bothers me that you speak as though it is.

[dcorbe]

If anyone is stupid enough to counter claim him (when we could have multiple copies of the same role) the scum know who to kill.

Agreed. Even if nobody else counterclaims him, the scum know he's a power role. If the town doesn't kill him, the scum will. The proposed roleclaim gives no new information.

If he's a power role and he gets lynched we lose it anyways.

You say this with utter certainty that I will be lynched today if I don't claim, when its already been said several times that claiming is useless. I will not claim, because it is not a certainty I will get lynched.

It bothers me that you speak as though it is.

Everything bothers you.

[Eldritch Lord]

Everything bothers you.

...Okay?

[Iron Man]

I dont think a claim is in order. As already said by numerous people, a claim in thiss settup would be pointless. I dont think I need to repeat what everyone has alreday said though.

As for voting, I'm going to

Unvote

for now. EL has cleared himself IMO, for now. I was initially running him for vote hopping and over defense, but the former is true for a lot of people here and the later has ended itself on his part.

I'm also going to

FoS: dcorbe

on the grounds for an insistancy for a role claim.

[TheSweatpantsNinja]

If he's a power role and he gets lynched we lose it anyways.

Indeed. So say he claims a power role. As town, what is our response to that, particularly day 1?