Mini-Normal 2070 is done

[Tchill13]

is town's winrate so low?

It's lower than it should be based on what I've seen from my time here. Just dumb practices over and over again.

[Jingle]

Anecdotally I’d say it’s lower than it was 4/6 years ago, although I haven’t done a real study. I also don’t think it’s related to individual skill but rather mean skill. In the before times, the long long ago, when dinosaurs walked the earth and magma crosses the surface, nightkills tended to be more role based and less player strength based as well.

[Nero Cain]

I mean, thinking about this. In a way 2 investigation roles doesn't seem like a whole lot b/c town

DOES

need the investigation power.
Had one investigation role die early, especially the cop, town would have very little invest power. I can also see the "giving scum a roleblocker AND a rolecop (the ability to find said invest prs) gives scum too much power. Maybe this only looks town sided b/c scum didn't kill a single clear or invest pr. Maybe this setup (and mafia in general) is just soo swingy.

[RadiantCowbells]

is town's winrate so low?

Just because you win all your town games doesn't mean everyone does, gosh

[Jingle]

I mean, thinking about this. In a way 2 investigation roles doesn't seem like a whole lot b/c town

DOES

need the investigation power.
Had one investigation role die early, especially the cop, town would have very little invest power. I can also see the "giving scum a roleblocker AND a rolecop (the ability to find said invest prs) gives scum too much power. Maybe this only looks town sided b/c scum didn't kill a single clear or invest pr. Maybe this setup (and mafia in general) is just soo swingy.

Eh.

First of all, the neighbor was never going to get nightkilled, nor rolecopped, because the miller claim D1 means they're a terrible target for all night actions, both scum and town.

Looking at the PRs, there's 2 that are just never lynchable (cop and loyal JK). Ascetic throws just as much of a wrench into things for scum as for town.

Taking a serious look at the setup, I do think it should have been rolecop -> roleblocker.


As far as why town won this? Yeah, definitely the N1 Axe-kill. As bad an idea as the cop claim was it worked out well for town this game.

[GuyInFreezer]

Yeah had scum not killed Axe N1 he would've been a quick D2 mislynch.

[Jingle]

is town's winrate so low?

Just because you win all your town games doesn't mean everyone does, gosh

Do you not win all of nsg's towngames? :thonk:

[mastina]

Really... "thoughtprovoking" game and interesting setup

Hi this was BNL's setup and I reviewed it!

[mastina]

i think it's a lot less townsided than it appears to be but still townsided. definitely within standal normal range

Standard normal range is "50%, give or take 10%"--so a setup that is 60-40 town-scum is in fact within the bounds of Normalcy.

I'd rate this setup somewhere in that 50-60% range, soyeah. Within the balance range. Maybe not perfectly balanced, but it is not 60+% townsided.

[mastina]

Btw this was what I said on the original setup:

Basically, loyal neighborizer is a cop; odd night gunsmith is a second cop. Town has sufficient investigative power to get a boost, but they're vulnerable--the jailkeeper can save their lives, but causes their investigatives to fail. Because the mafia have almost free reign over who to kill, the strong investigative power is something that they don't have to worry too much about, especially since there's heavy room for the town to assume their role failed for reasons other than hitting scum, and/or for scum to fakeclaim.

If the town roles live for long, they gain an advantage, but this is countered by how if they are taken out early (and there's little preventing this), the scum gain a huge advantage.

So while there's swing based around how long the strong investigatives live, the swing is balanced equally between which directions it can swing. Good townplay will reward the town heavily; good scumplay will reward the scum heavily.

The changes since then? The scum gained a Rolecop; the gunsmith became a cop; the odd-night was shifted from being on the cop to onto the loyal neighborizer; the bulletproof became ascetic.

On second thoughts I am afraid this is may be too townsided, because I feel the loyal neighbouriser recruiting any town PR, even the BP, will create too much synergy

I wouldn't remove much from the town. You can probably safely drop the BP (I almost recommended it initially before changing my mind), but I wouldn't recommend heavily nerfing town/buffing scum here.

I'd have still passed it without the BP present, and thought of it--my reasoning was,

I initially thought it might be a bit much, in part due to the reason you mentioned, of it being cop cleared. I ultimately ruled that it being shot putting the game on evens meant that it wouldn't make much difference; for the town to gain a lynch, TWO kills need to be stopped, and that is something that while possible, is unlikely.

The change of it to ascetic helped fix that, too.

If you are still worried, drop the bp, it'd still be passable albeit I'd think scum would be more likely the victors by even a small margin, but I still recommend against radical redesigns. You don't want to lose the core of the setup.

This is what I said when the setup was near-finished, and I stand by that statement. The BP dropped would've been passable, but I'd rate it as ~52.5-47.5 scum-town, in comparison to this setup with the BP being probably somewhere roughly inverse to that.

[mastina]

Taking a serious look at the setup, I do think it should have been rolecop -> roleblocker.

I pointed out the problem with that suggestion (BNL did make it!) in the review:
Two town loyal roles, versus a scum roleblocker = recipe for absolute utter scum stomp.

Because what happens when a town loyal role is roleblocked? They think that they targeted scum.
Plus, roleblocker + nightkill = two methods of stopping power roles.

Rolecop + nightkill = two methods of

finding

power roles per night, but once found, a PR still needs to be nightkilled.
Rolecop + nightkill is thus absurdly stronger because stopping power roles > finding power roles in terms of scum controlling the game.

[GuyInFreezer]

Oh I'm sad that vork isn't actually a doctor

[Vorkuta]

I suck at PRs

[Jingle]

Two town loyal roles, versus a scum roleblocker = recipe for absolute utter scum stomp.

Disagree.

Roleblocker doesn't interact unfavorably with the loyal JK. It probably doesn't give a false guilty (you only know you've failed if your target provably acted (an investigative) or they died. If your target dies, you now have confirmation that you were roleblocked.

Neighbor was an unlikely RB target at best given the miller claim.

Cop also has the ability to confirm the presence of blocking roles.

I feel like the roflstomp of scum roleblocking a town role requires town shitting the bed metaphorically on not playing around a role that can reasonably be expected given double investigatives.

[Tchill13]

Basically (I'll only say this once because I've had this discussion with mastina b4) setup mods expect town PR's to play as poor as possible and they expect scum PR's to play excellent which allows them to justify over powered town setups. Now mastina may disagree but that's fine and I respect her opinion.

[Tchill13]

And that thought process comes from trying to clean up awful town practices found on a regular basis. Such as solo gambits.

[Tchill13]

It's really an easy path to follow. Selfish town player wants to look cool. Gets lucky one of 5 times. Other players follow his lead because they'd like to look cool. Town play on site dips dramatically due to ego and refusal to work with others. Set up mods have to justify town sided setups.

1 plus 1 equals 2.

[Inferno390]

It's really an easy path to follow. Selfish town player wants to look cool. Gets lucky one of 5 times. Other players follow his lead because they'd like to look cool. Town play on site dips dramatically due to ego and refusal to work with others. Set up mods have to justify town sided setups.

1 plus 1 equals 2.

QFT

[GuyInFreezer]

I've won all my games where I fakeclaimed as town though.

[Vorkuta]

Teach me your ways

[RadiantCowbells]

it's funny that people are blaming a really strong town player for bad town play

[GuyInFreezer]

Teach me your ways

Figure out the setup before scum
Think of a possible role that could fuck with scum's night actions
Claim
Laugh at them after they fuck up their night actions

[Tchill13]

Not blaming you. Blaming the ppl that enable you. You're not as good as town as you are scum and you're actually proud of it.

Yeah you probably have better reads than me on a regular basis. You no longer have to manipulate others on your main because of your name.

I bet you have a much harder time playing alt slots.

[RadiantCowbells]

the opposite is true. i'm unstoppable on alts because i'm not held to weird double standards. i'm plenty persuasive without relying on name recognition.

[Jingle]

setup mods expect town PR's to play as poor as possible and they expect scum PR's to play excellent

Yeah, this is setup balance 101. The first step is to look at what happens if town shits the bed and scum plays amazing. The second step is to look at what happens if town plays amazing and scum shit the bed.

That has nothing to do with the site meta of towns not doing well.

As far as the complaint of towns failing to synergize, this was a REALLY good example of that. RC/Vork/JP all correctly identified each other. I correctly identified Egix. RC worked with me until we came to the point where our paranoia on each other disappeared. Scum woke up in an unwinnable position BECAUSE town managed to work together.

And really, if you're mad enough to blacklist over the day one wagon, maybe examine why you thought an ascetic claim was enough to slip the noose in the first place.