UK Eastermeet Invitational (Game over)

[Davsto]

xtoxmareyouscum

Nope.jpg

okay maybe this tell doesn't entirely work in a non face-to-face setting where it is impossible to base it off an immediate reaction

but presuming you did bash this out the exact moment you read it this is a townier response

[Porochaz]

Terrified of posting tbh, I don't know how to game.

cpol, are you scum?

Haha I came here hoping that this specifically would be posted! You didn't disappoint I don't think my answer quite has the same impact if we aren't locking eyes however?

I mean you didn't answer my question so...

[Fenchurch]

Klick: It doesn’t seem like the correct play here to give my reads, as then scum know 1) whether it’s safe to lynch me, or 2) who to leave alive if scum get lynched.

Normally agreed best play in JoB is to lunch the second-most scummy person, but that seems way harder to identify within 12 players.

Oh I guess I can vote already though? Let’s do it.

VOTE: CDB

[Davsto]

thanks for the scumclaim cerys you made each town's job approx. 7.7% easier

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Klick: It doesn’t seem like the correct play here to give my reads, as then scum know 1) whether it’s safe to lynch me, or 2) who to leave alive if scum get lynched.

Normally agreed best play in JoB is to lunch the second-most scummy person, but that seems way harder to identify within 12 players.

Spoiler: neither scum nor the second scummiest person is going to get lynched.

Klick, I really do think it's us two. That's all this game is about.

[Primate]

@Primate:

It's early but there's already been a bit of game activity. Can I ask if you've seen anything telling yet?

??
I mean sure though.

Not really. I have some scum reads but nothing town. Myko maybe for town? There's a few people (like you) being "helpful" (which I rate as an indicator) but not really giving me any vibes.

I'm not wild about sharing scumreads (I just don't think it's particularly useful), but you asked specifically, so Nexus and Poro are players whose I probably won't be listening to. Followed by literally everyone who's posted and isn't myko klick cdb or tom.

[Samantha Eyzburg]

Normally agreed best play in JoB is to lunch the second-most scummy person, but that seems way harder to identify within 12 players.

Oh I guess I can vote already though? Let’s do it.

VOTE: CDB

I would not have taken CDB for second scummiest, tell me more!

[Fenchurch]

Spoiler: neither scum nor the second scummiest person is going to get lynched.

Why not? What’s your plan?

Myko: gut. But not specifically 2nd scummiest.

Klick: what made you ask that question of Primate?

I have 4 scummy reads now. Why am I the only one voting?

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

Why not? What’s your plan?

It has nothing to do with me, I'm a townie, I have no influence over who's getting lynched.

Myko taking the second scummiest thing even slightly seriously is not a good look. No longer #2 on my list.

The other townie (hopefully you, Klick) should talk to me. We're about halfway through the grace period.

[Fenchurch]

The other townie (hopefully you, Klick) should talk to me. We're about halfway through the grace period.

Why?

[Fenchurch]

Patrick

: Wenna hasn’t even posted yet. If she hasn’t picked up her PM, might be worth prodding her on Facebook?

[ChannelDelibird]

CES, I don't think it's you, but just in case: what's up

[Klick]

Klick: what made you ask that question of Primate?

I had a scumread on him and wanted to see what kind of info he might give.

@CES:

Can you explain how you’ve decided I’m town? I’m having a hard time letting myself trust you here, but that’s mostly because I think you have what it takes to just repeat my name over and over until I’m on-board with your plan regardless of your alignment. At the same time, I’m starved for potential town and you’re still on the list.

[Samantha Eyzburg]

Klick, you stand out as someone who hasn't considered the setup nor the implications of it. There's been some theory discussion about it, consequentially there's a grace period in which the townie can't be quicklynched. Further, people are hedgy about their reads because a. scum don't have them. b. town doesn't want to give away too easily they are on the right or wrong track giving scum the ability to pick which townie is going to decide the game. Further, as town, who are you really talking to? You call out someone as scum: everybody already knew. You are talking to the other townie out there, and if they already decided you are speaking the truth they can't be bothered with who else is scum. Everybody would be.

It's you and Fenchurch who play uncharactaristically open and Fenchurch isn't very good at playing scum.

You could make a case for CES there. But for him he should've known better and he is really quite aware of the way this is likely to be played.

[Klick]

I played this one time at the meet last week, so I don’t claim to have the greatest grasp of the optimal way to play. But I have put forward some thought into what the setup means for obtaining reads and whatnot. Scum are going to play this however they want, but town has two goals: to figure out who the other town is, and to make themselves known to them. Any scum who wants to masquerade as town has to consider those two goals. And to that end, I think it’s still telling to give/ask for scumreads in the traditional sense.

For example, I claimed a scumread on Davsto. If he’s town, he then has to put forth considerable effort to engage with me and convince me of that. If he’s scum, he has to act like he’s town (and therefore try to convince me he’s town), or he can do what he’s doing now and give as little information as possible.

[Klick]

b. town doesn't want to give away too easily they are on the right or wrong track giving scum the ability to pick which townie is going to decide the game.

To an extent I agree with this, but I have to balance that out with the fact that I’m still trying to generate info and find the other townie. Ideally if both townies do their job right, neither townie will be a good pick for scum.

[Samantha Eyzburg]

I think you are overestimating the capability of scum. It doesn't become easier for them with increased numbers and it shows (then again, somewhat balanced by the idea that with larger numbers town will be more likely to accidentally shoot the wrong way).

The game cpol and xtoxm refer to was a large face to face game where after a couple minutes they had some eye contact, some hand signs, went over and discussed how they were the two townies while the rest of the "town" was pretending to talk while watching how they had lost the game.

There's no benchmark to play to, you are acutely aware you have to fool two people without them being the focus, and with more and more scum in the game town starts to stand out by virtue of simply not fitting in. Compared to your normal game, look how this game goes through spurts with people doing something very similar. We have half a page of people claiming town after CES asked for that for example. The game goes through waves of unoriginal activity. There's people who struggle to start the game because they first need such a prompt to figure out what to do. Amongst the more common scumtells because why bother calling them out.

Say you are town, you don't have to bother looking it: play to your needs and they'll stand out as being completely different than what the scum think you'd want. Because the way the game looks, it wasn't discussed in pregame. I think most discussed what was going to happen after the grace period since only Fenchurch has bothered to challenge that notion, but the start of the game was awkward enough with only CES having a set up plan how to go about it that there's no continuing conversation from the pregame scum discussion. Given the group and it's normal activity, I think most only checked in and there was limited planning, and certainly not to the extent where it was discussed how to play towards the townies.

[Primate]

When literally everyone but one person is going to take your arguments in bad faith, what's even the point. Even townreads don't really need to be justified, just had.

Spoiler: neither scum nor the second scummiest person is going to get lynched.

Why not? What’s your plan?

It surprises me that you're not aware of convention here.

Agree with myko generally on his last post. It's kind of amusing that we're discussing optimal play but it's JoB so I get it.

[Cogito Ergo Sum]

@CES:

Can you explain how you’ve decided I’m town? I’m having a hard time letting myself trust you here, but that’s mostly because I think you have what it takes to just repeat my name over and over until I’m on-board with your plan regardless of your alignment. At the same time, I’m starved for potential town and you’re still on the list.

I think the main thing is simply that you responded to my call to stand up and identify yourself to me. I felt like that would resonate with the other townie in the same way that it made sense to me. There's a good bit of PoE too, of course, since scum do help here enormously by scumming up the place; this partially ties back in to the first point again because I think the main way a bunch of people have been scummy is essentially that they don't seem afraid of getting vengekilled by the other townie - as a townie I've got the dual task of identifying the other townie and having them identify me within 72 hours and we'll probably just lose immediately if I don't succeed in that - I see that in you and not in anybody else.

A small part of it also was that I thought Primate's "galaxy brain" thing seemed unlikely to be intended to appeal to me which suggested that the other townie would be more appreciative of memes, but that's not really an angle I'd like to rely on.

[Primate]

all my posts are designed solely to appeal to me.

[Klick]

I have been wondering why this setup is called "Jungle of Bullshit", but I think I understand now.
I can see you as town, CES. I'm not fully convinced, but your thought process holds together and makes sense from a town perspective, and I don't know that you'd be this heavy-handed in trying to win me over as scum.

@Jack:

Have you ever played this setup before? I'd like to hear more from you in general, so if you have any thoughts then please do share.

[JackODiamonds]

Not really. I have some scum reads but nothing town. Myko maybe for town? There's a few people (like you) being "helpful" (which I rate as an indicator) but not really giving me any vibes.

I'm not wild about sharing scumreads (I just don't think it's particularly useful), but you asked specifically, so Nexus and Poro are players whose I probably won't be listening to. Followed by literally everyone who's posted and isn't myko klick cdb or tom.

Helpful is about the only indicator I'm working with rn. I haven't played the format before and I didn't really pick up much of the theorycraft being discussed at the meet (wish I did), so all I can do is play it like any other game, really. You're one of the few people making any sense to me (or even trying to), so I wanna try to get back on your "listening to" list. My issue is I'm a bit under-equipped to be super helpful here.

I played this one time at the meet last week, so I don’t claim to have the greatest grasp of the optimal way to play. But I have put forward some thought into what the setup means for obtaining reads and whatnot. Scum are going to play this however they want, but town has two goals: to figure out who the other town is, and to make themselves known to them. Any scum who wants to masquerade as town has to consider those two goals. And to that end, I think it’s still telling to give/ask for scumreads in the traditional sense.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, admittedly I have played this format zero times, but I think you're right that as usual town still benefits far more from info and reads and so on than scum do. The difficulty is that when scum outnumber town, it's so easy to just dodge a lot of that shit, like a lot of people are doing. Also, for me I don't know everyone that well and so it's still very hard to read what's normal for people, especially with people I didn't even overlap with at the meet!

For example, I claimed a scumread on Davsto. If he’s town, he then has to put forth considerable effort to engage with me and convince me of that. If he’s scum, he has to act like he’s town (and therefore try to convince me he’s town), or he can do what he’s doing now and give as little information as possible.

This is the part where I think you've lost me, though? Davsto would only have to expend that effort if he thinks there's a chance you're the other townie, right? Obviously he's not going to be able to convince you if you're scum and he'd be wasting his time too? I'm playing based on the idea that most people here are just going do be Doing Things and Saying Stuff and I won't be able to change that. Am I doing it wrong?

Say you are town, you don't have to bother looking it: play to your needs and they'll stand out as being completely different than what the scum think you'd want.

Again, this is making sense to me. I think town has to play basically the same game as normal: do the information, get the reads. Yeah, you're trying to find town rather than scum, but PoE (look, I used the lingos) seems like a decent way to do that.

[JackODiamonds]

I have been wondering why this setup is called "Jungle of Bullshit", but I think I understand now.
I can see you as town, CES. I'm not fully convinced, but your thought process holds together and makes sense from a town perspective, and I don't know that you'd be this heavy-handed in trying to win me over as scum.

@Jack:

Have you ever played this setup before? I'd like to hear more from you in general, so if you have any thoughts then please do share.

Ack, this must've come up as I was typing my post. So, no, never played this set-up before (and also I'm very rusty in general), so I'm working basically using the hints given in the set-up plus how I'd treat a normal game, basically?

My thoughts are basically that a townie, maybe even more than usual, will be helpful and will be trying. So I've got a lot of people on my "probably scum list" for failing to meet those criteria. CES and Fenchurch are also on that list, but for possibly trying too hard? Fen seems to be making a show of helping more than actually helping and I'm weirded out by her trying to vote. CES is giving me the scumvibes he was giving me in wereleg of trying to show trust in people to get trust put back in. (And I shot the wrong guy that game so damned if I'm making that mistake twice.)

Those are also the people in this game that I know best, aside from Kyrion (my partner) and Wenna. Wenna hasn't posted at all and Kyrion's post was 3/4 jokes and a rules question, so...

My issue now is how to narrow-down my "maybe town?" list and then also try to keep in mind that this group is quite different from my usual, so I might need to scrap half of what I think I know

[ChannelDelibird]

This game is not going entirely as I expected (which perhaps in itself should have been expected). Even though most or all of the people who are arguing that my usual approach to being town in Jungle of Bullshit won't work are scum, I do find it troublingly reasonable.

For the record, then, the people I have so far ruled out of being the townie are: Fen, Prozac, Nexus, Xtoxm and Davsto.

I am suddenly a lot more conscious of the 72-hour thing than I was before. It felt like all the time in the world before we actually started.

[Samantha Eyzburg]

FYI I'm only really going to be able to post from my phone here or there until Sunday evening.

Only 7 people remain in the running to be town.

For the record, then, the people I have so far ruled out of being the townie are: Fen, Prozac, Nexus, Xtoxm and Davsto.

There was a lot of information in the last page, I think it made you forget a read you had. Lets say the nonposter was miscounted. It happens.

Didn't you get any analysis out of the last page?