Newbie 1925 - Game Over

[Micc]

Votecount 3.01

TheASC (1) -

zeebu

Not Voting (4) -

Schiavetto, TheASC, MaryJoLisa, TTTT

With 5 players alive it takes 3 votes to lynch.

The deadline for Day 3 is in (expired on 2019-05-03 19:40:00).

[TheASC]

Ok, looks like I've got some catching up to do. First things first, I agree with TTTT in regard to him being confirmed town but don't understand the request for a Neapolitan to claim resulting in a guaranteed win. We're just as likely to be in C1 with a potential easy Neapolitan fake claim as we are to be in A1 with a real Neapolitan.

I'll answer anyway though - I am not a Neapolitan.

Schia's "policy hammer" seems very strange considering he stated a town read on that slot and someone had already declared intent to hammer. I'll look more into Schia's ISO over the next hour or two and compare it with some of his previous games.

Also, the JPD night kill implies that our final Mafioso picked up on his cop soft (otherwise they'd probably kill TTTT, the near-universal tr). Just something to bear in mind.

[TheASC]

The conversation over the last couple of pages between MJL and zeebu feels townie - MJL's really redeemed that slot in my opinion. TTTT's obviously town at this point from the cop. zeebu I find harder to read - he seems like he'd be an easy mislynch as town but I'm not getting any scum vibes from him.

One thing I will say before I take off-

I'm not the biggest fan of 1-lynch spreads (ASC and ZoL know this). From town, they represent a kind of passivity, or refusal to participate in the (sometimes risky!) process of building wagons, applying pressure and developing reads. From scum, it can be a defensive tactic used to inconvenience town or dissociate oneself from a partner.

Schia, how is this any different to what you were doing with your vote on me yesterday?

[Schiavetto]

@TheASC It's a big part of why I shifted. I made several arguments against Sash being lynched, and in the time that we had left, it was clear that the gen pop wasn't going to change their mind about moving forward with the lynch. So after leaving some time for discussion, I hammered. I think TTTT's a little upset that he wasn't the one to do it, but I didn't see the conversation going anywhere useful at that point. From a scum POV, a VT claim means it's that much easier to pick out PR. From town's POV, a VT claim makes it easier for scum to PR-hunt while also remaining unverified until we get a flip. So you get the flip.

As for your allegation that TTTT has requested a Neapolitan claim [x], you're either misunderstanding what he said or deliberately misrepresenting what he said: He asked for a Neapolitan to claim

if they got a VT result on somebody

, reason being that we would (presumably) have three clears. The same thing could be accomplished by having a Tracker (should one exist) claim their result/lack of result on a player. Just having everybody claim PR/Not PR is silly, as it makes scum's job easier tonight since (and here's my next point of hesitation): they already have a very good idea of what the setup is.

If second scum is Rolecop, it's entirely possible that they found town's cop N1 and simply went forward with the kill N2. No softs involved. They would also know that we had a Tracker (in which case, prompting Neapolitan claims would be an ez way to shug off suspicion)
If second scum is Goon, then they likely picked up some cop-vibes and got in a much-needed kill on town PR. From that point, it'd be in their best interest to do anything at all that to maintain the illusion that there is still another town PR. Including asking a non-existent PR for results.
RB!Scum is the only scenario in which scum is uncertain of the other Town PR, and prompting claims makes it that much easier to make a determination about the setup.

So. Allow me to reiterate: There is no urgent need to claim your role, unless you are a Neapolitan or a Tracker who has received a result that could exonerate someone, by virtue of their being VT or their having gone nowhere on the night of a kill with solo scum.


@zeebu That was super incoherent, but I'm glad you seem to have recognized your incoherence and made the shift to TheASC. Delighted, even. What I'm *not* so thrilled-to-the-bone about is they way you're being fickle with your votes. You came into the day ready & rearing to go with your vote on me (despite lacking substance), but then hopped onto TheASC the moment you had TTTT's support (he didn't say as much, but I wouldn't be surprised if your quick turnaround there was a part of the motivation behind his unlynching). If the proximity of your two votes is anything to go off of (TTT leads wagon here [x], zeebu sheeps him mere minutes later [x]), you don't really care who gets lynched today. I don't love that.

[Schiavetto]

That's L-1

@Schiav
if you prematurely hammer for the 3rd day in a row
and the game doesn't end
you are the no-questions-asked lynch tomorrow

I've been struggling a bit with the tone of this. Those were both late-day hammers--the first being a tad flippant, but hardly uncalled for. Regarding the second, that was another late-day hammer, made after the wagon had stalled for some time at L-1 and at a certain point, extended town discussions become anti-town. I expanded a bit more on that in my previous post, addressed to TheASC. More to the point, you posted within an hour of my hammervote, and all you had to say during the twilight phase was "he dead" (more flippant than the remark in my first hammer). You didn't bring it up until you had put TheASC at L-1, barely over 24 hours since the day started. Were I to hammer there (as if), it would be in no way comparable to my previous two hammervotes--and I'll thank you not to invite the comparison.

I've seen nothing in JPD's posts to make me doubt he inspected you as town last night, but I'm still going to hold your posts under scrutiny if something feels off.

[MaryJoLisa]

First things first...
I'm confirmed town based on JPD's first post of day2
if we have a Neapolitan and they have at least 1 Vaniila result on a player

other than me

they should claim Nea and out results and the game is solved by lynching in the remaining two players

Okay, I see it. Took me a little while to get there. It's not a claim that can be seen plainly without a PR flip, but then it becomes clear in the context of a green PR flip.

[TheASC]

As for your allegation that TTTT has requested a Neapolitan claim [x], you're either misunderstanding what he said or deliberately misrepresenting what he said: He asked for a Neapolitan to claim if they got a VT result on somebody, reason being that we would (presumably) have three clears. The same thing could be accomplished by having a Tracker (should one exist) claim their result/lack of result on a player.

You don't seem to have addressed my main point regarding a Neapolitan which is that we would not have any more clears than we do currently - just because someone claims Nea with a result doesn't mean they actually are Nea with a result. In C1, the last scum knows there's no other PR so they can claim Nea themselves and we absolutely don't want to accidentally clear scum.

Another important point worth mentioning here is that Neapolitan with a non-VT result should also claim as this instantly narrows the game down to 2 potential scum (the claimed target and the claimed Neapolitan) and we lynch them both.

[Schiavetto]

Point taken and considered.

[MaryJoLisa]

@TheASC, if you've answered this already, I apologize. How much experience do you have playing a game like this?

[TTTT]

@Schiav
I don't wanna get into it about your hammers
but basically they were both premature
We can discuss more postgame

[TTTT]

@ASC
if you are tracker and have a N2 "went nowhere" result on anybody other than me
you should out that

[MaryJoLisa]

@TTTT and @Schiavetto, to accept that theASC is scum, I have to accept that he bussed his partner for the D1 lynch. Is that likely? He was late on that wagon, but he was earlier on the D2 wagon.

[MaryJoLisa]

MJL how you feeling about this game?

I'm having fun. It's a good group and that makes all the difference for me.

How rude of me! Thanks for asking, TTTT. How are *you* feeling about this game?

[TheASC]

@TheASC, if you've answered this already, I apologize. How much experience do you have playing a game like this?

I've been playing mafia IRL for about 6 months, active in a mafia chat room (with Schia and many others) for about 3 months and this is my second game on here.

[TTTT]

How rude of me! Thanks for asking, TTTT. How are *you* feeling about this game?

not great
I haven't locked in any of you as town at this point

[MaryJoLisa]

How rude of me! Thanks for asking, TTTT. How are *you* feeling about this game?

not great
I haven't locked in any of you as town at this point

When you originally asked the question, Zeebu and I were in a conversation about enjoyment, so that's how I answered. With a little reflection, I realized you were probably asking about the game state.

i've got you locked in as town, TTTT!

[TTTT]

You don't seem to have addressed my main point regarding a Neapolitan which is that we would not have any more clears than we do currently - just because someone claims Nea with a result doesn't mean they actually are Nea with a result. In C1, the last scum knows there's no other PR so they can claim Nea themselves and we absolutely don't want to accidentally clear scum.

this is almost correct but it doesn't quite work out that way
gimme a minute

[TTTT]

Another important point worth mentioning here is that Neapolitan with a non-VT result should also claim as this instantly narrows the game down to 2 potential scum (the claimed target and the claimed Neapolitan) and we lynch them both.

yes
I'm assuming everybody knows that...
Neapolitan should absolutely claim if they have a non-VT result
Tracker should absolutely claim if they have a positive result

[TTTT]

In no circumstance

should Doc claim today
unless placed at L-1 with intent to hammer

[TTTT]

You don't seem to have addressed my main point regarding a Neapolitan which is that we would not have any more clears than we do currently - just because someone claims Nea with a result doesn't mean they actually are Nea with a result. In C1, the last scum knows there's no other PR so they can claim Nea themselves and we absolutely don't want to accidentally clear scum.

so I've asked for Nea to claim

only if

they have a VT result outside of me
here's how this breaks down for scum fake-claiming...

If we are in setup C1 and scum claims Nea with a VT result on one of [ASC, zeebu, Schiav, MJL]
(let's say scum!ASC fakeclaims and with a VT result on zeebu for this hypothetical)
we lynch in the remaining players [Schiav, MJL]
(let's say MJL)
who does scum!ASC NK?
choices are TTTT (99% conftown based on the cop)
or zeebu (100% conftown based on scum!ASC just confirming via Nea)
either way ASC still has to claim

another

Nea result day4
and so for hypothetical let's say scum!ASC kills zeebu
day4 is [ASC, Schiav, TTTT]
scum!ASC has to out another VT (on Schiav)
scum!ASC can't say "oh I Nea targeted TTTT bc I was paranoid" bc that's a clear scumclaim
this also works identically if Tracker claims a no visit result on someone outside of TTTT

TLDR: scum lose if we are in C1 and they fake-claim Neapolitan or Tracker with an inno result outside of TTTT

[TTTT]

everybody in their next post should either say:

If I am a Neapolitan or Tracker I do not have an innocent result outside of TTTT

or post:

I am [Neapolitan, Tracker] and [player] is town because...

[TTTT]

I'll start:

If I am a Neapolitan or Tracker I do not have an innocent result outside of TTTT

[MaryJoLisa]

I'll start:

If I am a Neapolitan or Tracker I do not have an innocent result outside of TTTT

I've already said that I'm not a Neapolitan, so I'll add to that and confirm that I'm also not a Tracker with an innocent result outside of TTTT.

[TTTT]

why this will work:

assume MJL is Tracker (or Neapolitan... same thing here)
if you out a VT in [ASC, zeebu, Schiav, MJL]
(let's say ASC)
scum (let's say scum!zeebu) has to decide if they counterclaim
(they won't because there's only one left scum left and we just lynch both claimers until we win)
so scum!zeebu doesn't CC and we lynch in the remaining pool of [zeebu, Schiav]
(let's say Schiav)
night3 scum!zeebu has to NK either TTTT (99% conftown) or MJL (claimed PR) or ASC (conftown due to MJL)
obviously they have to kill MJL
(but it doesn't really matter who they kill)
day4 starts with [zeebu, ASC, TTTT]
conftown and 99% conftown

switch around the names however you want
it results in a mechanical win for town from my POV

[TheASC]

I'll start:

If I am a Neapolitan or Tracker I do not have an innocent result outside of TTTT

Likewise, if I am a Neapolitan or Tracker, I do not have an innocent result outside of TTTT.