micro 871: mystery box of silver 4 (G O)

[Chito and Nuko]

Hi everyone!

VOTE: Porkens

Confscum.
(Would link but can't find the relevant post.)

VOTE: apthet

Is this the "Hey guys!" tell?

I don't think this is relevant for apthet because they made a basically identical post in another game as their first post where they were town.

[GeminiTwin12]

@nom
I've pondered the thought and questioned a few things in regards to CT (and yourself Nom), so it's not magical. I may not have actually stated the words scum pool earlier but the words scum and potential did come up together though.

[Chito and Nuko]

All posts have been by Nuko aka singeltonking aka BulletNLynchproof btw

I'm not going to bother signing until (if) Chito comes back.

[CheekyTeeky]

VOTE: Mastina

[nomnomnom]

this vote is cheeks

[mastina]

Yikes. You haven't read nom's first scum game, have you?
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=79138

Admittedly it's a Normal that I read less than I read most Normals, I'll confess. (I pretty much read every single Normal but some Normals I kinda neglect. Don't have time to read literally all of every game.)
On a look tho--while nom's play in that game is closer to nom's mason play game, it is still

different

in a way that is inherently different from this game.

If I had to put a word to it, it'd actually be "friendliness".
nom as scum consistently seems friendly; nom as town does not.
And this nom of this game doesn't seem friendly. Thus, town.

[mastina]

I disagree with you about 145 (spoiled for easy reference). 86 was saying nothing, but that wasn't a reason to scum read tris. In 82 tris had a legitimate reason to say that porkens had reasons - she had been scum read by otter for asking about porkens reasons. Porkens later stated reasons, and tris was saying this to make the argument to luckyotter that her question was legitimate, resulted in info (small, but good for how early in the game it was). And 78 was in no way a defense of cheekyteeky (plus, as you and I both know, legit scum reads do happen page 1.)

So all in all, I think it was clarity's post that showed a lack of critical thinking about the thread, and I don't understand why you town read it?

To put it simply--one does not need to have a right read for the read to be one which I think is well-reasoned. I DO see critical thought put in, ESPECIALLY given what ClearlyClarity's experience with tris is. With an understanding of their history, the read made perfect sense as being a thought she would have about tris.

[mastina]

Mastina I'm going to BoP you on the ap lynch. If it flips town or vem flips town I'm going to tinfoil you/otter team.

Normally.
I'd point out that I'm not that competent a town player and thus BoP arguments rarely turn out well because I'm a shitty scumhunter.
Normally, I'd point that out and fight against the point.
Normally.

But.
Ya know what?
Fuck it.

I'm confident enough in the apthet-Gemini solve that absolutely, yes? You've got yourself a fucking deal.
In fact.
For emphasis.

DEAL!

[mastina]

I would expect town (because this is how I feel) to get that endorphin rush of having a replacement come in and basically confirm your reads.

To the contrary! Excitement would've made me feel the side-eye.

Paranoia

on the other hand, is insanely town.

Town who have struggled to push their reads all game

can

, when someone comes in and suddenly is pushing those same reads, feel a rush of relief...but far, far, far, FAR more likely? They're gonna be skeeved out at the buddying/sheeping going on because they've gone the whole game without being followed and now suddenly someone is? The natural inclination for most town players is immediate suspicion and paranoia, doubting their previous pushes' legitimacy, with hesitance because suddenly, this idea which was theirs is no longer theirs alone.

That's reason for nom to be town, not scum.

[mastina]

This isn't an argument that meta should be used to scum read her; it's an argument that meta shouldn't be used here to town read her.

Okay, so fuck meta then. Let's read nom on just this game's merits:

Where am I wrong?

Where you're wrong is that nom's posts here transparently show a strong town mindset--reads which are nom's own, given extensive reasoning; strong pushes made with conviction, and then when presented with situations that invoke an emotional response, immediately feeling paranoia. Instead of doubling down on now having an ally, nom went out of their way to avoid having one.

As scum, you can't win the game by yourself; you need town players to go with you, and nom has avoided doing so.

[mastina]

@Mastina, what are your thoughts on Parachutes' towncase on ap in 459?

What towncase?

Nothing in there makes apthet even remotely town.

Everything he's saying is indicative of town is indicative of scum; it's literally fucking backwards.

[mastina]

the scumteam was informed that everyone was a VT--making Gemini claiming VT not be something I see as clearing. If the scum know that the game lacks PRs, then they have a fair idea of what (not) to claim

Wait a second. Are you really reading this game? You've missed a logical scumclaim here if you really believe this.

I fail to see how?

In the first MBoS game, the scum knew that every single town player was a VT.
I don't know what the scum knew in MBoS 2/3 because I wasn't in those games, but given my experience from the first game, I can see the scum having knowledge of what roles are(n't) in the game, e.g. knowing that every player's a VT (as was the case in the first game). It need not be that information specifically; they could instead know that, say, there's only ONE PR in the game, or even know what that PR is specifically, or if the game really does have seven VTs know that once more, but my point remains regardless of what role composition this game is; scum have, in the previous MBoS game, known information about the composition of the town's roles--so it is fairly probable that something similar would exist here...
...And because they likely have a fair idea of what's in the game...
...They also have, by proxy, a fair idea of what (not) to claim.

Where's the flaw in that logic?

[mastina]

Spoiler: My Role PM first game

Welcome to micro 840 ! You are a

mafia goon

. You may talk to your partner at any time in here, and each night either you or your partner may use a factional nightkill.

HOWEVER!!!! you have a couple responsibilities outside of this. . . . check out your hideout . . .

You win when you control half the vote during a day phase, or when nothing can prevent this.

Please confirm by telling me what the bolded red text says or by posting in your factional thread.

Subject: micro 840: Wolfs (complete.)

oh . . mastina and shmeep . . . HELLO! you both received the same role PM
you have two decisions to make during the game.
at the end of day one, i will send this PM to someone:

Spoiler:

the mafia have chosen . . . You!!!! you are now a

The Sticky Silver Angel - Bulletproof Night 1 and 2 Tracker!

During the first and second nights of the game, you may investigate a player to learn who they have visited last night, if anybody. No killing action can be hidden from you this way (that is, no role that can kill is a ninja). You cannot be killed at night, and at the dawn of day 3 I will confirm you as town.

this change is effective immediately - you can take an action night 1.

you have until that time to decide who i will send this to (i will take whichever was the last directive). if the day ends before you make this decision, it will be randomized (you will be notified of the result.)

at the end of day 2, you can choose someone to receive one of these two PMs:

Spoiler:

you found a gun in the mud outside your house. might take a minute to get the gunk out . .

you are now a

night 3 vigilante!

on the third night of the game, you may choose someone to kill.

you found a gun in the mud outside your house. it has evil energies radiating from it . . . . oh no. . . .

you are now a

night 6 vigilante!

on the sixth night of the game, you may choose someone to kill.

if i do not receive a choice, neither will be given.
you also know that the person who is lynched day 1 is given the choice of a player to bestow this role:

Spoiler:

You have realized your true identity . . . . you are

Swampy Nell, the Night 2 Invéstigatoire!

During the second night of the game, you may investigate a player to learn whether they are

innocent

or

guilty

. Anybody that looks

innocent

will be town, but

guilty

does not necessarily mean mafia.

the three events i have described here constitute all of the roles in this game; every townie is vanilla at present.
.
each night, you may ask me for a flavor name for a given role description. you may discuss night actions & role assignment choices here at any time

This is what schadd did the first game for the scum.
schadd need not do the same "seven VTs" trick for the idea to be kept similar. "You know that the town has role X, but every other player is currently a VT", for instance; it achieves the exact same effect, except in this setup the town would have role X.

My point wasn't specifically "scum know the game has seven VTs and thus know to claim one"; my point was "scum probably have knowledge of the composition of town's roles (or lack thereof) and thus know what (not) to claim".

And I don't see anything which gives any contradiction to that?

[mastina]

Her only way out now is to scumread me which is going to be a very long and sucky 1v1.

Sorry no interest in voting town.

Game's still won because scum are still apthet and Gemini.

[mastina]

as she's directly contradicting her read and the game she's pretending to read.

Fuck that shit.
If I were pretending to read this game I'd have gotten back, what, a solid hour of my life that I would have preferred to spend elsewhere doing other things?

I read the game; there's no contradiction and you're seeing something which simply isn't there.

[nomnomnom]

I just want a gemini lynch, this is a disaster waiting to happen.

[mastina]

She's not paying attention to the game but pretending to.

1: If you're softing a PR? I legitimately didn't notice it. So thanks for outing yourself for nothing because nobody as far as I can tell noticed previously, including me.
2: But that changes nothing because I did not say "a PR claim = scum this game". You think I did but I fucking didn't.
I said exactly what I meant: scum in the first game knew it was seven VTs. So IF (I INCLUDED THE FUCKING WORD IF BECAUSE IT WAS A HYPOTHETICAL) they knew that there were seven VTs (which was a DIRECT COMPARISON TO THE FIRST GAME), they'd know what (not) to claim, was what I was saying.
And that remains true because the statement remains regardless.
If scum knew there were seven VTs, then they would know what (not) to claim.
If scum knew that there were six VTs and one PR, then they would know what (not) to claim.
If scum knew what the specific PR in the game was, then they would know what (not) to claim.

I used the first example because the first example was DIRECTLY RELEVANT TO MY MBoS EXPERIENCE which I was DIRECTLY REFERENCING, but I just as easily could have used the second or third examples. Or even a fourth. "If scum knew that the game had two PRs, they would know what (not) to claim".
Or even a fifth. "If scum knew that the town had powers X and Y, they would know what (not) to claim".
Or probably even more combinations I'm not thinking of, because I can't think of them all nor should I be expected to when listing a fucking hypothesis about hypothetical scum knowledge about what the setup is. Not on D1 with no claims and no knowledge of games 2/3 in the series, at least.

[nomnomnom]

No way this is town. No fucking way. I'm just floored by people that instantly let her off the hook when she was pretty clear caught scum then let her come back with these posts, and even listen to her asinine logic on a spot with faulty arguments and tangents.

We can come back to Ap later but the very fact that town is losing IQ around Gemini is my top reason to get rid of it. I'm just... fucking hell.

[mastina]

You're really going to tell me that that's not a valid and fair thought?

It is a thought which can and did come from town, but in this case is neither valid nor fair.

What I said was very fucking clear; CheekyTeeky's seeing something which simply put

isn't. there.

And had she fucking waited for me to come in, I could have clarified this.

She could have asked one simple question and left it at that question, waiting for me to answer it and I'd have told her all of what I just fucking said now.

And we'd have been saved from all of this shit.

You supporting her is further evidence for why you're scum though.

[mastina]

It means mastina is cherrypicking meta to suit her agenda.

I mean.
Not gonna lie here.
I do that regardless of alignment but especially as town. (Yes, I cherrypick meta more as town because as town I tunnel worse and cherrypicking meta is an inherent part of my tunnels. When I do it as scum it's faking my town meta.)
So saying I cherrypick meta to suit my argument's not wrong; I do it all the time and you could even say that a significant portion of my nom defense could be called precisely that. (Ehhhh debatable but you

could

and I wouldn't exactly feel like fighting that assessment.)

But

in the area you think I did

, no I fucking didn't. Because you read something which

I didn't actually say

as existing when it doesn't.

[mastina]

She implied possibilities where scum could have information because of a previous edition where that's what happened, that doesn't mean that all these games have informed scums.

This, but more in the sense of "I'd expect scum to know facts about the setup that give them an edge on what (not) to claim".
That doesn't mean there can't be town who know information about the setup.
That doesn't mean there can't be a PR in the game.
That means exactly what it fucking says it means; that in my previous experience scum knew what the setup was and that if something similar were in this game, then they'd have the same ability to know what (not) to claim.

[mastina]

Just back up and let me suss this out with mastina

You're a fucking moron.

You know what sussing this out would've been?

Asking one fucking question clarifying this.

If you thought I was saying what you fucking thought I said, find a way to confirm that's what I meant. Find a way to ask me about it and see what I'd have said.

One question was all you'd have needed.

"So, you think that this game's got seven VTs?"
"Are you telling me you think that only scum would know what roles are in the game?" (Ehhh probably not this one as it gives away your meaning too much, but something along those lines could feasibly be done without giving your status away.)
One question.

That's all you'd have fucking needed.

And then, BAM.

I clarify.
That, no, I mean, "Well IF the game's got seven VTs, then YES I would expect the scum to know that, yes. If the game instead had six VTs, I'd expect the scum to know that."
And then.
BAM.
Issue resolved. You suss me out and get a satisfactory answer right then and there.

Without this fucking mess.

Or if that answer wasn't satisfactory?
Ask a second follow-through question to get me to further clarify.
And eventually the results become obvious in what I mean and what I mean not being what you fucking originally thought I was saying.

So I reiterate.

You're a fucking moron.

[mastina]

472 - Using rvs/joke votes to determine alignment. Saying I'm scum? For a joke vote.

Gemini's never seen me in action before so wouldn't know this but others do; just because the post I quote is from the RVS does not inherently mean the read is from the RVS--in this case, it happens to be from the RVS, but that's because RVS content isn't worthless; you can legitimately and genuinely get good content out of it.

474 - using the terms "clear as day" "transparent" without showing examples

This is mostly because I had other shit to be doing rather than catching up in this game and didn't feel like power-efforting.

I can go.

Post by fucking post.

For why each and every single player in this game is town.

I can tell you why I scumread each. and every. single. post. I scumread. And why I thought each. and every. single. post. was further indication the players I'm townreading are town. I can also run you through why the Chito/Nuko's posts were more neutral/null rather than being town.

I can do all of that.

But that takes an incredible amount of time and effort.

Each post is a paragraph or two--that's a solid 20ish for page one alone and ~25 paragraphs for each page after.

I can do that.

But the amount of time and effort to do it is just...it's a matter of last resort, not first resort. I'll do it if I've got no choice other than doing it to prevent a mislynch and get the scum lynch but I'd just REALLY prefer not to put THAT amount of time and effort in--ESPECIALLY when by all rights, this game should be fucking won.

I'm not alone in having reached the solve; most players have had it or close to it at numerous different points. I'm not alone in having seen the town players as town; most players have had a good idea of why they are town for the vast majority of the game, only later having stupidly caved in to paranoia.

I shouldn't fucking NEED to explain why you're scum because the town already reached the conclusion you were before I was even in the game; they just stupidly gave up on it after caving in to the paranoia when they fucking HAD it.

[mastina]

I like 21, 23 and 38, showing the early advancement of the game starting with a townread which also contributed to my early townread on Porkens.

Those posts are what helped to solidify the scumread. apthet was trying to be town, super-serious, during the time period where the town was being fairly whimsical and lighthearted.

apthet's entrance into the game was itself serious in 10; the unvote was further seriousness with a tone contrasting that of literally everyone else on the page. Everyone else had an air of being joking with banter. Porkens's entrance jived with tris's entrance; tris's continued posting jived with Porkens, LuckyOtter's entrance jived with Porkens's entrance, there was a bunch of whimsy and fun involved in that. That's not to say that these players weren't making any efforts to game solve; I'm sure their posts were at the VERY least semi-serious in that their reasons were "as good as RVS read reasonings can be".

But there was a certain lightheartedness to most of what they did. CheekyTeeky did similar with the direct reference to moving fast, a joke based off of schadd's rules. (And yes as you can tell by my own entrance I did in fact read those.) I also thought that CheekyTeeky picked up on the same thing that I did RE: Gemini (in that Gemini's RVS entrance felt out of place compared to the others in not having interacted with them), but apthet was just so...SERIOUS.

38, in contrast, is actually RIDICULOUSLY empty. apthet's entrance was super-serious, and yet apthet has nothing to say further? If apthet were joking around, I'd understand the fairly fluff-filled answer, but 38 contrasts with her earlier posts; 38 shows a lack of commitment to scumhunting, whereas her earlier page one posts looked like they were forcing scumhunting artificially.

it's of note that the sorting on Gemini wasn't followed up, despite saying that she voted Gemini to sort him.

That would be one of the reasons why I think they're the scumteam, yes!

[mastina]

May I know when a VT claim is ever clearing?

Ehhh I can see it in special circumstances being clearing when there's good reason to suspect scum wouldn't claim VT beyond just "I don't think they would"; actual solid reasons with strong justification backing why the VT claim is disproportionately likely to come from town.

My post was mostly my way of saying that I don't think said circumstances exist in this game, that there's no special circumstances behind Gemini's VT claim that make it inherently clearing to her, that it's something scum would likely know was the claim to make.