Open 60: The New C9 - Game over!

[Shteven]

I'll address the points the Fonz made about me being the SK:

1. Backing off whenever an opinion looks like it might lead to a controversy which would bring attention to him. (I have several examples of this). When I re-read overnight, I got a strong feeling of playing to survive from him).

I'll respond to these when you post them.

2. The 'having read Rigel's post' thing, which indicates scumminess but not alignment with spacecase.

How does this indicate scumminess? Basically, I agreed with Rigel's anti-spacecase post quickly because it's end goal was the same as mine: lynching spacecase. I had only skimmed the post and rushed my endorsement of it, so later I had to retract agreement with some of the individual claims (most of them not about spacecase). If anything, it shows a overzealous desire to lynch spacecase - which is much, much more likely a town behavior than an SK concerned about his survival. There was no reason I had to push the spacecase wagon that forcefully except for my own belief that it would benefit the town.

3. The moving off of spacecase's wagon, which indicates to me an indifference to who gets lynched, and a desire to force claims from multiple people (plus the obvious benefit of leaving a player much scummier looking than himself alive to swing in future days).

I haven't tried to specifically force claims from anyone this game - although voting does this indirectly, but that cannot be avoided. I pushed spacecase from the very beginning of day 3, and I went out on a limb to try to get him hung. Yes, I did vote for others after it stalled, but I was more than glad to go right back when people finally came around. How anyone can read day 3 and think that my posts show

indifference

to who was lynched is incomprehensible.

4. Frequently preaching caution, ie trying to look like the wise and rational voice of town- a cheap way to buy trust.

I don't like speed lynches, especially when I'm unconvinced of a quickly constructed case. When major developments come along late in the wagon, I do want to collect a consensus on the developments. Perhaps in the case of dcorbe claiming SK it wasn't necessary, but at the time I thought it would help us. It was the first time I've seen an SK claim; in hindsight it was much more clear he was scum than I initially thought.

5. Repeatedly trying to seed the idea of someone else being the SK in the collective mind, based on pitiful evidence.

I don't think I've ever suggested anyone was the SK in this game but you. And I just call that scum hunting.

6. His uncritical acceptance of dcorbe's SK claim, which casts doubt on just how much he believed his own Fonz-SK case.

I just wanted everyone to take a second look and consider it before the day ended. New information should lead to new discussion, although I suppose in this case there wasn't as much to say as I thought there would be. I was hoping the mafia would off him for us, saving us having to use a lynch...for obvious reasons that didn't come to pass, as he was mafia himself.

7. His desire to keep the claimed SK alive yesterday (which would have had the advantage of stopping other people from thinking about the SK, with a claimant to the role alive, and also with Shteven as dcorbe's no1 protector, meant that dcorbe's mafia kill was unlikely to head Shteven's way).

Quite a misrepresentation. The SK being alive would have given us a good shot of cross kills, and we had plenty of townies alive to go after the bigger target - mafia. I was expecting the mafia to want to kill the SK, and thus lynching the SK once he was outed would be a complete waste of a lynch. Since Dcorbe lied and was actually Mafia, none of this came to pass. And both killing factions feared the town more than each other, as there was a double kill on laptopgun, our last confirmed innocent. Although Vollkan might as well be considered cop-investigated also.

[The Fonz]

2. The 'having read Rigel's post' thing, which indicates scumminess but not alignment with spacecase.

How does this indicate scumminess? Basically, I agreed with Rigel's anti-spacecase post quickly because it's end goal was the same as mine: lynching spacecase.

Many arguments for why it was scummy were made at the time. In short: it indicates a carelessness, a lack of due diligence. It involves hiding behind someone else's argument. And it's a cheap way to push a wagon other than your own.

I had only skimmed the post and rushed my endorsement of it, so later I had to retract agreement with some of the individual claims (most of them not about spacecase).

If anything, it shows a overzealous desire to lynch spacecase - which is much, much more likely a town behavior than an SK concerned about his survival. There was no reason I had to push the spacecase wagon that forcefully except for my own belief that it would benefit the town.

Except there are a few things that contradict the idea that you were desperate to lynch spacecase.

Like your complaining that no-one was really talking about anyone but Spacecase or dahill.

Or your unvoting of spacecase because the wagon had 'stalled.'

I think there's something of a contradiction between the following statements:

Becoming a bit disappointed with overall activity levels in this game.

Spacecase is scum, get to it folks.

And these two:

So the 180 part holds, although there is some merit to people saying there wasn't any serious chance of the lynch not being kab. That said,

we do need to take a look at other people, and discuss everyone, but I expect I'll be voting spacecase all day unless something very significant comes up.

I am a bit concerned that no one seems to be discussing anyone other than these two, although I myself am guilty of this. In an attempt to get something else started, I'll

FOS: The Fonz

. This is based on nothing solid - so please don't overreact. But you seem to be echoing generic townie sentiments, for example specifically in post 448 where you basically just repeated my post. Who do you think are scum, Fonz? And if it's spacecase/dahill, then for the sake of argument please include a few people who aren't top picks for the day - I haven't seen much scum hunting from you so far. If I looked closely, I'm sure I could find others, but you're up first.

The 'please don't overreact' bit is part of the confrontation avoidance I was getting at earlier, btw. Basically, you express 'concern' that only Spacecase and dahill are being discussed, even though you are apparently 'desperate' to lynch spacecase. You look like you're trying to get alternative cases made, but not make them yourself, by asking me to come up with other suspects. And I maintain that there is no reason to single me out specifically here. (Also, when I get to my other computer, I've got a fair bit of evidence to hand that 'Fonz echos generic town sentiments' is complete crap, and indeed, that you've followed me more than I have you).


As well as your assertion that you 'don't like speedlynches, especially when there are incomplete cases.' Well, in your desperation to lynch spacecase, you appeared for a good period to be advocating lynching him fairly quickly off a single tell, when many of us were still trying to poke at him to get a picture of his thinking!

3. The moving off of spacecase's wagon, which indicates to me an indifference to who gets lynched, and a desire to force claims from multiple people (plus the obvious benefit of leaving a player much scummier looking than himself alive to swing in future days).

I haven't tried to specifically force claims from anyone this game - although voting does this indirectly, but that cannot be avoided.

Well, this is exactly what I'm getting at, squire. If you put someone in a position where he is the leading, or joint biggest, wagon with less than a week to go, it's very likely he's going to have to claim, isn't it? It sure as hell can be avoided- by sticking to the wagon on the player you were 'desperate' to lynch.

I pushed spacecase from the very beginning of day 3, and I went out on a limb to try to get him hung. Yes, I did vote for others after it stalled, but I was more than glad to go right back when people finally came around. How anyone can read day 3 and think that my posts show

indifference

to who was lynched is incomprehensible.

Spacecase was NEVER not the leading wagon, until your unvote and vote of Phate put phate ahead. Then, having extracted a doc claim from Phate, you returned to Spacecase. You didn't 'return because other people finally came around' you revoted because Phate claimed doc. That's the reason you cited at the time.

Stating that 'I'm comfortable with a Phate lynch too' certainly does indicate 'indifference' rather than 'going out on a limb.'

4. Frequently preaching caution, ie trying to look like the wise and rational voice of town- a cheap way to buy trust.

I don't like speed lynches, especially when I'm unconvinced of a quickly constructed case.

No-one likes speed lynches, which is why it's a cheap way to try to look town.

When major developments come along late in the wagon, I do want to collect a consensus on the developments. Perhaps in the case of dcorbe claiming SK it wasn't necessary, but at the time I thought it would help us. It was the first time I've seen an SK claim; in hindsight it was much more clear he was scum than I initially thought.

Why is consensus necessary? And indeed, it seemed to me it was fairly close to existing- we knew dcorbe was antitown at minimum, and everyone else seemed quite happy to lynch him.

5. Repeatedly trying to seed the idea of someone else being the SK in the collective mind, based on pitiful evidence.

I don't think I've ever suggested anyone was the SK in this game but you. And I just call that scum hunting.

I meant me, genius. If you can, by repeated hinting, get it into the collective mind that I'm a good SK candidate, that can help create an environment that everyone just kind of assumes it, in the absence of anyone else making an SK case. SK on the brain is also a surprisingly effective tell.

6. His uncritical acceptance of dcorbe's SK claim, which casts doubt on just how much he believed his own Fonz-SK case.

I just wanted everyone to take a second look and consider it before the day ended. New information should lead to new discussion, although I suppose in this case there wasn't as much to say as I thought there would be. I was hoping the mafia would off him for us, saving us having to use a lynch...for obvious reasons that didn't come to pass, as he was mafia himself.

Yes, and my point is, you didn't even consider the possibility that he was mafia fakeclaiming. Now, given that a) it looked like he might be lynched anyway, so it was a fairly likely desperation move from a n00b mafioso, and b) You apparently thought that I was the SK, that doesn't strike me as genuine. It does, however, make sense for an SK to keep a 'friendly' killer around for one more day.

You also suggested that I was mafia for wanting the claimed SK dead. Now, presumably, you had reason before to think I was specifically SK and not mafia. If you'd thought I were scummy in general, I'd have expected a case to that effect. So it looks a lot like cheap pointscoring to me.

7. His desire to keep the claimed SK alive yesterday (which would have had the advantage of stopping other people from thinking about the SK, with a claimant to the role alive, and also with Shteven as dcorbe's no1 protector, meant that dcorbe's mafia kill was unlikely to head Shteven's way).

Quite a misrepresentation. The SK being alive would have given us a good shot of cross kills, and we had plenty of townies alive to go after the bigger target - mafia. I was expecting the mafia to want to kill the SK, and thus lynching the SK once he was outed would be a complete waste of a lynch. Since Dcorbe lied and was actually Mafia, none of this came to pass. And both killing factions feared the town more than each other, as there was a double kill on laptopgun, our last confirmed innocent. Although Vollkan might as well be considered cop-investigated also.

Not a misreprensentation at all. I state 'Shteven as SK would have had reason for wanting to keep the fakeclaiming SK alive.' You claim that this is misrepresentation because you claim that you are town who actually has a different set of motivations. This is just... utter crap.

[-TinVision-]

First Vote Count of the Day

Not voting

(5) - armlx, iamausername, Shteven, The Fonz, vollkan

With 5 alive, it is 3 to lynch.

[iamausername]

Here's my not particularly well organised thoughts from reading through each player one more time.

armlx (and predecessors)

D1 - Not a lot to look at, thanks to the cop claim insta-lynch. Votes Six Aces after the hammer was already dropped.

D2 - Voted kabenon after 5 others already had, without a great deal of reasoning given. The reasoning that was there seems fairly solid, but yeah, that's definitely adding some points in the 'mafia' column.

D3 - Posts some Spacecase suspicion, but it's only after quite a few others already have, and doesn't bring up any new points. No vote. ssf drops out. pdne steps in, does nothing, drops out. LML steps in. Doesn't believe Jesse/Cipher's cop claim, votes farside/me for some extremely weak reasons for this stage of the game. Completely ignores the major wagon of the day, which happens to be on scum. Swaps to Rigel for, admittedly, pretty valid reasons.

D4 - armlx steps in. Goes after Oman hard, almost to a ridiculous level. "I could tell that Oman needed to die before D1 was over even." Seriously? On the surface, this looks pretty good armlx not being mafia, but I'm seeing a possibility that armlx figured he'd replaced into something of a tight spot and decided that bussing Oman was necessary to make up for his predecessors' actions, even though it would leave him without any more living partners.

D5 - Kicked off with a vote on me, then switched over to dahill without actually offering any explanation at all. He'd stated previously that he thought dahill was SK (also without explanation). Absolutely looks like scum going for the easy lynch (and maybe hoping to take out the other scumgroup, too).

Yeah, I'm definitely calling armlx as mafia.

---

The Fonz

D1 - Again, not a lot to go on, thanks Jesse. "I usually random NK as scum for precisely the reason that town is likely to tie themselves in WIFOMy knots wondering who had motive to do it." And an unknown showed up dead N0. COINCIDENCE???

D2 - His vote on kabenon looks more like a 'policy lynch' than earnest belief that kabenon was scum. Don't like it. (It was also after the hammer had already been dropped, but Fonz didn't appear to be aware of this at the time).

D3 - Took a long time to get on the Spacecase wagon, but this was mostly because I think he was exploring other avenues more than I've previously given him credit for, I think. Also led the charge on dahill for some issues that I picked up on later, which I'm reading as pro-town even if it turned out to be a bad lead.

D4 - Ah, I miss D4, when everybody apparently realised simultaneously that Oman was obvscum. Good times. The Fonz was the third on that wagon, but brought up new points, and also posted reasonable cases on dahill and armlx at the same time. Looking pretty good.
I think the reaction to dcorbe's SK claim is a very useful thing to look at in trying to finger the real SK. All that The Fonz has to say about it is this: "It seems to me vollkan and armlx have done just fine at stringing you up by your own petard, scum." Possible SK motivation: he knows we're lynching mafia, which is good for him at this stage, and he's gloating. Possible townie motivation: He knows we're lynching mafia or SK, which is good for him at this stage, and he's gloating. Yeah, pretty much a null tell.

D5 - Defends himself well against Shteven's attacks, although I think he is quite blatantly claiming more credit for the Oman wagon than he actually deserves. His vote on dahill was totally justified.

One thing I think is worth mentioning, which was a big part of why I previously supported the suggestion of Fonz as SK, is that (besides a random vote at the start of the game), Fonz has NEVER voted for a player who wasn't eventually lynched that day. This kind of lends weight to the idea that he's been "echoing generic townie sentiments", as Shteven put it. However, I think he did make more cases of his own than I remembered on D3, at least, just none of them came with votes.

---

Shteven

D1 - Still not a lot worth mentioning on this day. Shteven says "I'm uncomfortable with the speed of this lynch". I'll get back to that.

D2 - Vote on farside for possible role-fishing - fair enough, I'd probably find that suspicious too if I didn't know farside was innocent. Shteven says "I'm uncomfortable with the speed of this lynch". Also tries to urge people to look at other suspects than kabenon, without actually putting forward any cases himself, until pushed to do so.

D3 - First vote on Spacecase, although he wasn't the first to point out Spacecase's scummy behaviour. Still, it's good, decisive action, looking townie. But then, later, another post urging people to look at other suspects than Spacecase, without putting forward any suggestions himself, and after he's said things like "Spacecase is scum, get to it folks." and "As for spacecase, I'm still pretty certain he's scum."
Starts planting his seeds of suspicion on Fonz here. He backs away from it when Fonz defends himself well, but then keeps coming back to it, which is not sitting well with me. It just doesn't feel like completely honest scumhunting.
"How can people read Rigel's last post and not be voting Spacecase? It's about that time... " We've been over this over and over, but yes, it's scummy. I wrote it off when Spacecase flipped mafia, because I was thinking of it as scum trying to push a lynch on an innocent, but I suppose it also fits the bill of SK trying to push a lynch on

anyone

.

D4 - Early vote on dahill, which looks like it conflicts with all his attempts to distance himself from that wagon recently. Shteven says "I'm uncomfortable with the speed of this wagon." Sounds strangely familiar, somehow. He'd also like to urge people to consider suspects other than Oman, surprisingly, although to be fair, he does actually make a case on armlx himself. It's a pretty weak case, but still, that's progress of a sort.

Reactions to dcorbe's SK claim could be a good look, as I said before, and there's a lot more here than there was with The Fonz. "Who benefits the most by killing the SK? The mafia." I don't think this was true at the time (See vollkan's Post #1021), but as SK, it would certainly benefit Shteven to convince us that it was.

D5 - "Well, first scum wagon I wasn't on in this game so far. At least not on it in its final state." HEY EVERYBODY LOOK HOW GOOD I'VE BEEN AT CATCHING SCUM! Votes dahill without any reasoning, and is now trying desperately to distance himself from that wagon. I'm looking at his case on The Fonz, and I'm not seeing a lot of points that aren't either completely unsubstanciated, or equally applicable to Shteven himself.

---

I'll make a more substantial post after I've done some more rereading, hopefully by the end of today, and give a more considered ordering then, which

may well be totally different from this one.

Yep.

1. armlx
2. Shteven
3. The Fonz

armlx at #1 because I can't see either of the others as mafia, while I can still see some possibilty of Fonz as SK, though I'm definitely leaning more towards Shteven on that.

armlx points list updated:

Shteven- 8 points (3 from armlx, 3 from Fonz, 2 from username)
Armlx- 6 points (2 from Fonz, 3 from username, 1 from Shteven)
Fonz- 5 Points (3 from Shteven, 1 from username, 1 from armlx)
Username- 5 points (2 from Armlx, 2 from Shteven, 1 from Fonz)

Would definitely like to hear some thoughts from vollkan at this point.

[The Fonz]

The Fonz

D1 - Again, not a lot to go on, thanks Jesse. "I usually random NK as scum for precisely the reason that town is likely to tie themselves in WIFOMy knots wondering who had motive to do it." And an unknown showed up dead N0. COINCIDENCE???

Lolz.

D2 - His vote on kabenon looks more like a 'policy lynch' than earnest belief that kabenon was scum. Don't like it. (It was also after the hammer had already been dropped, but Fonz didn't appear to be aware of this at the time).

You're damn right it's a policy lynch. Take a look at my record. I have never, ever, not voted for a self-voter (unless it was the RVS, obviously). I used to have a bit in my sig that read 'If you self vote as town, I will kill you. And I don't mean in the game either- I'm going to come round your house with an axe.' Or something like that. I really, really hate self-voters.

D3 - Took a long time to get on the Spacecase wagon, but this was mostly because I think he was exploring other avenues more than I've previously given him credit for, I think. Also led the charge on dahill for some issues that I picked up on later, which I'm reading as pro-town even if it turned out to be a bad lead.

Yeah, like I said at the time, I wasn't sure what scum had to gain. (Another reason I think the 'echoing generic sentiments' claim is false, since I was pretty much the only one pushing this angle at the time).

Then a few things happened. One, my re-read revealed that SC had FoSed Kab the post before he said he was a bad lynch, which was the post before he hammered him. One flip is explicable, two is far less so. Secondly, he kept on lurking in plain sight and refusing to answer questions I and others had for him, which indicated that either he didn't have a defensible thought process, or didn't want us to see it (town players should always want everyone else to get an accurate read on them, possibly excepting doctors).

I think the reaction to dcorbe's SK claim is a very useful thing to look at in trying to finger the real SK. All that The Fonz has to say about it is this: "It seems to me vollkan and armlx have done just fine at stringing you up by your own petard, scum." Possible SK motivation: he knows we're lynching mafia, which is good for him at this stage, and he's gloating. Possible townie motivation: He knows we're lynching mafia or SK, which is good for him at this stage, and he's gloating. Yeah, pretty much a null tell.

I was more kind of amused by dcorbe's hilariously bad attempt to shift suspicion onto me than anything else there.

D5 - Defends himself well against Shteven's attacks, although I think he is quite blatantly claiming more credit for the Oman wagon than he actually deserves. His vote on dahill was totally justified.

Not really. The first two votes on him were from yourself and armlx, both of whom were fellow suspects, and had reason to push an oman wagon to save yourselves. I place a third vote, at a point when I could, if i were scum, quite easily have come up with a dahill case, and put the two of them level. We then have dahill piling on the post after mine, and no-one else is ever a candidate. That's why I think my vote is significant.

Now, the Shteven stuff I promised. Firstly, I'd like to open with the following question: Who is echoing whom again?

Trying to suggest the survival of a cop is scummy when the strong possibility exists of one or more docs- scummy.

Agreed. I'd say it's most likely that he was doctor protected, and that mafia chose other targets instead of taking the chance on there being a doctor protection.

*Sighs*

This game annoys me. Because this Kab wagon is pretty crappy, and at the same time probably the best thing we have to go on, and therefore I don't find anyone scummy for being on it.

/seconded.

Fonz beat me to it, but yes, talking about statistics doesn't really indicate your alignment - just that you like/think in mathematical terms. I do it myself sometimes.

I'd agree - Cipher should claim the innocent. Especially with the godfather lynched, innocents are worth a lot more now. The only anti-town role they could be would be the SK.

Secondly, on the 'backtracking/being unoffensive' angle:

I don't find much to fault fab with on his attack on me. I think the feeling was genuine, and not scum hunting down town.

Sorry if my previous post had been confusing, armlx. I still wouldn't mind hearing a bit more on why you thought username was one of your top two suspects and what you think about him vs Oman (presumably oman is your choice after reading post 910).

Appear to trying to keep on everyone's good side.

I am a bit concerned that no one seems to be discussing anyone other than these two, although I myself am guilty of this. In an attempt to get something else started, I'll

FOS: The Fonz

. This is based on nothing solid - so please don't overreact.

Warns me not to 'overreact' ie pre-emptively discrediting any attacks I make on this post.

When he comes out with the false dichotomy on me:

In addition: Dropping scum tells doesn't mean you're scum. If you believe his claim, then the mistake that he made the claim is moot. So, Fonz: Do you think LTG is scum? If yes, why haven't you voted him for it or at least FOS'ed? If no, why are you attacking him when you believe his claim?

I explain why this is an FD, and then he comes out with:

@fonz: After I posted my question, I did realize that I should have left a bit more room for the middle ground, but you explained it rather well so I'm satisfied with that.

That's pretty much it for my notes, save the generic 'wanting more discussion' scumtells, as if Shteven is going 'oh, aren't I the most contentful.'

[armlx]

He'd stated previously that he thought dahill was SK (also without explanation).

Untrue. I said Oman was obv mafia, Farside-Oman link meant you were also mafia, and dahill didn't really have a link and was clearly SK for that.

Basically everyone agrees Shteven is quite suspicious though, I just want to hear vollkan's thoughts before I vote.

[Shteven]

responses to Fonz:

Many arguments for why it [pushing spacecase hastily] was scummy were made at the time. In short: it indicates a carelessness, a lack of due diligence. It involves hiding behind someone else's argument. And it's a cheap way to push a wagon other than your own.

The spacecase wagon was started by me and I provided numerous posts with reasons for why. One hasty post shouldn't remove all that genuine effort.

No-one likes speed lynches, which is why it's a cheap way to try to look town.

Agreed - yet in this game we've already had two. One was cop-generated, which is fair enough, though. Most players seem ok with speed lynching when they're reasonably certain of guilt.

You also suggested that I was mafia for wanting the claimed SK dead. Now, presumably, you had reason before to think I was specifically SK and not mafia. If you'd thought I were scummy in general, I'd have expected a case to that effect. So it looks a lot like cheap pointscoring to me.

You must have missed this quote:

I feel the fonz has a significant chance of being both mafia or the Serial Killer.

Made when I voted for you. Originally on page 42, and linked from page 44 just to help make sure everyone's seen it. Now it's posted 3 times

As an update, though, I think username's made a more convincing case of Armlx being mafia; I'll get to that below.

As far as your initial point 7 and the claim of misrepresentation - From the outside perspective misrepresentation may be the wrong word. One-sided perspective, self-fulfilling prophecy (if you assume I'm the SK you'll find SK motivations when you look) or propaganda would be more accurate. I used misrepresentation because I know what my role is and my motivations were, and you misrepresented them. But from your POV, misrepresentation isn't the right word. You did however, assume I was SK and then made the case based on that assumption. Compare to a quote from username's recent post:

I think the reaction to dcorbe's SK claim is a very useful thing to look at in trying to finger the real SK. All that The Fonz has to say about it is this: "It seems to me vollkan and armlx have done just fine at stringing you up by your own petard, scum." Possible SK motivation: he knows we're lynching mafia, which is good for him at this stage, and he's gloating. Possible townie motivation: He knows we're lynching mafia or SK, which is good for him at this stage, and he's gloating. Yeah, pretty much a null tell.

Had you looked at both sides like username did, you'd probably have found it a null tell.

@Username:

D5 - "Well, first scum wagon I wasn't on in this game so far. At least not on it in its final state." HEY EVERYBODY LOOK HOW GOOD I'VE BEEN AT CATCHING SCUM! Votes dahill without any reasoning, and is now trying desperately to distance himself from that wagon.

I largely gave in to group opinion - and I'm not that fond of it because he came up town. I was proud of my record because I'm rarely as accurate as I have been in this game, although my mistake on Dahill does bring my accuracy back down a bit. I consider the vote on dahill and the post agreeing with Rigel to be the two clear mistakes I've made this game that I hope I learn from.

[Shteven]

Figured I'd break out a second post to respond to the Fonz's second post.

Breaking out all the times I've agreed with people (although you mostly selected times I agreed with you) is pretty funny. I especially liked this one:

I'd agree - Cipher should claim the innocent. Especially with the godfather lynched, innocents are worth a lot more now. The only anti-town role they could be would be the SK.

Let's see what other fun dirt I can throw on someone...say, Vollkan!

Gah. I'm dead tonight, so I might as well claim my innocent result. Any objections?

There is a small chance of a second doc, but I wouldn't risk the loss of information. Go ahead.

I'll wait a little longer to give my result, but I'll definitely call it before nightfall.

For the record, I believe that Justin's Night 1 investigation was an innocent on vollkan. This theory largely revolves around this post, in which Justin seems to be basing his case against kabenon on the presumption that vollkan is town.

Since you bring it up, I guessed precisely the same thing from that same post.

As username mentioned, he and his predecessors have been wrong on each of the three lynches. Wesaq was voting for Spacecase at the end of day 1, which I consider possible distancing.

I wasn't aware of this fact. I don't think it is voteworthy in and of itself, but you've just given me an impetus to conduct a pbp on him. I should get round to it soon.

And every one of those from day 4! I should go find lots more!

The overall point here being that agreeing with people isn't scummy. And the Fonz saying that my case on him is agreeing with other people is a misrepresentation. The point was that you aren't making many bold statements, that you haven't done much scum hunting. The echoing statements are just what you're using to fill the void and remain an active poster.

Username mentioned this in his summary of you:

One thing I think is worth mentioning, which was a big part of why I previously supported the suggestion of Fonz as SK, is that (besides a random vote at the start of the game), Fonz has NEVER voted for a player who wasn't eventually lynched that day. This kind of lends weight to the idea that he's been "echoing generic townie sentiments", as Shteven put it. However, I think he did make more cases of his own than I remembered on D3, at least, just none of them came with votes.

While he does have the same slightly off meaning behind 'echoing generic townie sentiments' the rest is talking about what I really meant, your aversion to going out on a limb. Town players can and should agree with each other, and over 45 pages you're certain to find multiple cases of this.

----

In an unfortunately WIFOM thought, Username making a strong case for armlx as mafia makes me wonder if he's the SK. It would be another case of a self-fulfilling prophecy and so I can't put much weight on it, but if he was then he'd have set up both a mafia lynch and an easy mislynch tommorow on either myself or the fonz. I mention this merely for completeness, and as I seem to be highest on points right now (thus risking being silenced by lynch). Again, username as town has every reason to hunt for mafia so it is much more of a null tell.

[Shteven]

Something going on here? Waiting for some responses. Obviously Vollkan's response is probably the most crucial, but I'd like to see some posts here

Been about 50 hours since the last non-me post

Mod:

Prod Vollkan please.

[armlx]

Shteven, I don't understand the point of your last post in response to Fonz or how it proves him wrong. I don't see him attacking you for agreeing with people anywhere.

[armlx]

Shteven, I don't understand the point of your last post in response to Fonz or how it proves him wrong. I don't see him attacking you for agreeing with people anywhere.

[vollkan]

Something going on here? Waiting for some responses. Obviously Vollkan's response is probably the most crucial, but I'd like to see some posts here Wink

Been about 50 hours since the last non-me post Wink

Mod: Prod Vollkan please.

I'm here. I'm in the middle of my exam block at the moment, so I can't get round to doing any enormous super-reviews at this point in time. I will comment on what has been said thus far though:

Shteven- 7 points (3 from armlx, 3 from Fonz, 1 from username)
Fonz- 7 Points (3 from Shteven, 3 from username, 1 from armlx)
Armlx- 5 points (2 from Fonz, 2 from username, 1 from Shteven)
Username- 5 points (2 from Armlx, 2 from Shteven, 1 from Fonz)

We clearly have 2 tiers among the unconfirmeds, the very scummy, and the moderately scummy.

I'm interested in Vollkan's comments or additions to this.

I don't know how keen I am on you characterising there as being two clear tiers. Fine, two people were higher than two other people, but I frankly don't see it as creating some magical cleavage.

At the moment, my thoughts are scattered and I can quite readily conceive of any of you being scum, so I think it frankly misleading of you to describe the results of your lists in this manner. Moreover, let's bear in mind that two of the unconfirmeds are scum - so half of the rankings are basically just created by self-interested parties. That's hardly a reliable guide for separating out the scummy from the less scummy, is it?

How does this indicate scumminess? Basically, I agreed with Rigel's anti-spacecase post quickly because it's end goal was the same as mine: lynching spacecase. I had only skimmed the post and rushed my endorsement of it, so later I had to retract agreement with some of the individual claims (most of them not about spacecase). If anything, it shows a overzealous desire to lynch spacecase - which is much, much more likely a town behavior than an SK concerned about his survival. There was no reason I had to push the spacecase wagon that forcefully except for my own belief that it would benefit the town.

So, basically you claim that you were proceeding on an "ends justifies the means" basis. I frankly can't see that sort of thing coming from a player who genuinely has the town's best interests at heart. For you to be town and hold that approach, you would have to be proceeding on the wholly arrogant basis that you were absolutely 100% certain in your suspicions, to the point of disregarding what anybody else said.

3. The moving off of spacecase's wagon, which indicates to me an indifference to who gets lynched, and a desire to force claims from multiple people (plus the obvious benefit of leaving a player much scummier looking than himself alive to swing in future days).

Erm...what?

How does changing wagon suggest indifference and a desire for multiple claims? That's like claiming that voting evinces a desire for a quick-lynch.

4. Frequently preaching caution, ie trying to look like the wise and rational voice of town- a cheap way to buy trust.

And also a cheap thing to attack.

Right now, in light of what I read above, my inclination is to see armlx as likely mafia and Shteven/Fonz as SK.

[armlx]

The tier issue was partially based on point totals, partially based on the fact that 2 people had 0 first place slots and the other two people each had 2.

[vollkan]

And two people (the scum) gave their rankings entirely out of self-interest.

[armlx]

And two people (the scum) gave their rankings entirely out of self-interest.

No, only partially. The scum are just as interested in seeing the other scum lynched today as the town are, as 2-1 is generally more winnable then 1-1-1.

[Shteven]

Shteven, I don't understand the point of your last post in response to Fonz or how it proves him wrong. I don't see him attacking you for agreeing with people anywhere.

Try post 1104. It's about halfway down, starts with the line "Now, the Shteven stuff I promised. Firstly, I'd like to open with the following question: Who is echoing whom again? " And then he quotes me a few times. My previous post, 1107, was showing how pointless that was by quoting vollkan agreeing with people when we all know he's town.

No, only partially. The scum are just as interested in seeing the other scum lynched today as the town are, as 2-1 is generally more winnable then 1-1-1.

I had been considering mentioning that myself, and you managed to do it a lot more concisely than I would have, so thanks. Scum need to find the other scum, so they are only lying about themselves. That said, the tally is still unreliable simply because lynches always are - we mislynched yesterday and are always at risk of another.

[armlx]

Ok. While you are right, I still think you aren't using valid logic to argue against it.

And Shteven, I realize the tally is unreliable because people can be wrong. However, we have to rely on people to win the game and make decisions, so.....

I'm trying to figure if Username's vote change is legitimate or self serving.

[iamausername]

Not really. The first two votes on him were from yourself and armlx, both of whom were fellow suspects, and had reason to push an oman wagon to save yourselves.

Which applies equally to you.

I place a third vote, at a point when I could, if i were scum, quite easily have come up with a dahill case, and put the two of them level. We then have dahill piling on the post after mine, and no-one else is ever a candidate. That's why I think my vote is significant.

Except dahill kind of piled onto the wagon before your vote, albeit without a vote of his own (which I previously took to be scum dahill unsure about whether he definitely wanted to bus his last buddy, but since he turned up town, it looks like he genuinely did just forget to vote.) And mine and armlx's points combined made a pretty strong case already, I hardly think that lynch had no chance of going through without your arguments.

In an unfortunately WIFOM thought, Username making a strong case for armlx as mafia makes me wonder if he's the SK. It would be another case of a self-fulfilling prophecy and so I can't put much weight on it, but if he was then he'd have set up both a mafia lynch and an easy mislynch tommorow on either myself or the fonz. I mention this merely for completeness, and as I seem to be highest on points right now (thus risking being silenced by lynch). Again, username as town has every reason to hunt for mafia so it is much more of a null tell.

I don't know why you even bothered posting this, it's such a null tell.

Moreover, let's bear in mind that two of the unconfirmeds are scum - so half of the rankings are basically just created by self-interested parties. That's hardly a reliable guide for separating out the scummy from the less scummy, is it?

There's also the fact that even with the two townies, assigning it as 3 points, 2 points, 1 point doesn't give a completely accurate picture of their opinions, since it doesn't account for disparity in the gaps between each player - for instance, I'm a lot more sure that armlx is more likely scum than Shteven than I am that Shteven is more likely than Fonz. Seems to me like armlx is trying to work these numbers to 'prove' that Shteven is a better lynch than he is.

[The Fonz]

responses to Fonz:

Many arguments for why it [pushing spacecase hastily] was scummy were made at the time. In short: it indicates a carelessness, a lack of due diligence. It involves hiding behind someone else's argument. And it's a cheap way to push a wagon other than your own.

The spacecase wagon was started by me and I provided numerous posts with reasons for why. One hasty post shouldn't remove all that genuine effort.

Actually, you basically just provided the one reason: that the switch-to-hammer was scummy. And again, for the umpteenth time, your subsequent unvote when he was one of two leading wagons doesn't scream 'willing to fight for a spacecase lynch' to me.

No-one likes speed lynches, which is why it's a cheap way to try to look town.

Agreed - yet in this game we've already had two. One was cop-generated, which is fair enough, though. Most players seem ok with speed lynching when they're reasonably certain of guilt.

dcorbe wasn't speedlynched in my eyes, and cop guilties are a different kettle of fish altogether. In addition, the point of discussion is to work out who the scum are. Advocating continuing discussion past the point where a majority have made up their minds, for the sake of it, is not pro-town, and simply a scummy way to try to look 'pro-discussion.'

You must have missed this quote:

I feel the fonz has a significant chance of being both mafia or the Serial Killer.

No, I didn't. It's just given that all the arguments you've forwarded and all your previous mentions of suspicion of me, forgive me if you throwing in a cheap 'oh, and he might be mafia too' without any reason to try to push a lynch doesn't change my opinion.

As far as your initial point 7 and the claim of misrepresentation - From the outside perspective misrepresentation may be the wrong word. One-sided perspective, self-fulfilling prophecy (if you assume I'm the SK you'll find SK motivations when you look) or propaganda would be more accurate. I used misrepresentation because I know what my role is and my motivations were, and you misrepresented them. But from your POV, misrepresentation isn't the right word. You did however, assume I was SK and then made the case based on that assumption.

Thankyou. You admit claiming town motives, and me ascribing scummy motives, isn't misrepresentation.

And no, I didn't. I looked for behaviour which makes sense in an SK (SKs on the brain, lack of courage in convictions, general scumminess which didn't look like it suggested a link to the mafia group and so on) and found them in you.

Figured I'd break out a second post to respond to the Fonz's second post.

Breaking out all the times I've agreed with people (although you mostly selected times I agreed with you) is pretty funny. I especially liked this one:

I'd agree - Cipher should claim the innocent. Especially with the godfather lynched, innocents are worth a lot more now. The only anti-town role they could be would be the SK.

Let's see what other fun dirt I can throw on someone...say, Vollkan!

Gah. I'm dead tonight, so I might as well claim my innocent result. Any objections?

There is a small chance of a second doc, but I wouldn't risk the loss of information. Go ahead.

I'll wait a little longer to give my result, but I'll definitely call it before nightfall.

For the record, I believe that Justin's Night 1 investigation was an innocent on vollkan. This theory largely revolves around this post, in which Justin seems to be basing his case against kabenon on the presumption that vollkan is town.

Since you bring it up, I guessed precisely the same thing from that same post.

As username mentioned, he and his predecessors have been wrong on each of the three lynches. Wesaq was voting for Spacecase at the end of day 1, which I consider possible distancing.

I wasn't aware of this fact. I don't think it is voteworthy in and of itself, but you've just given me an impetus to conduct a pbp on him. I should get round to it soon.

And every one of those from day 4! I should go find lots more!

MASSIVE MISREPRESENATION FTW!

My point is not that you are scummy for sometimes agreeing with people. My point is that your claim that I 'merely echo generic townie sentiment' is utter crap, and that in fact that claim could more convincingly be made against you than me.

Let's go to the tape, shall we?

Day One: We both vote 6 Aces, based off a cop investigation.
Day two: We both express that the Kab lynch isn't particularly good, but there is nothing better, really.
Day three: You are first onto the spacecase obvwagon. I question it, and attempt to ascertain more about his thought process. Eventually, I ascertain that the combo of changing positions drastically over the course of three posts (original argument) plus his unwillingness to scumhunt and generally evasive answers convince me that he is, in fact, the right lynch.

I join the wagon, and then stick to it through the bitter end. You, once it seems like a large counterwagon is built up (mainly on dahill's arguments) jump off the spacecase wagon, even though it's still got a good chance of going through, only to return to it when phate claims doc.

You make bet-hedging posts like this:

I still don't like Spacecase. However, Rigel's post 704 wasn't much better. See the post I linked above for more about 704.

Meanwhile, I attack LTG's unnecessary townclaim, for which you go after me with craplogic, then back off when I point out the craplogic. (Is it echoing generic townie sentiment and trying to keep my head down to attack an investigated innocent, Shteven?) I also point out what I see as antitown actions in both Oman and MCD from their little spat (Oman's having it both ways, and his hypocrisy in lurking after calling for lynch all lurkers, MCD's assertions about the speed of the wagon).

Day Four: My arguments against Oman were largely original, and had little to do with any 'generic town' sentiment against him. Indeed, as I noted above, those already voting him were the other leading suspects, due to their absence from the Spacewagon.

[Shteven]

There's also the fact that even with the two townies, assigning it as 3 points, 2 points, 1 point doesn't give a completely accurate picture of their opinions, since it doesn't account for disparity in the gaps between each player - for instance, I'm a lot more sure that armlx is more likely scum than Shteven than I am that Shteven is more likely than Fonz. Seems to me like armlx is trying to work these numbers to 'prove' that Shteven is a better lynch than he is.

A good point - I'm becoming nearly as suspicious of armlx as the Fonz, but it's hard to represent that. Especially with the responses to the Fonz going back and forth in large posts, it reinforces the impression that he's far and away my only target. Speaking of which, let's play the clear up the latest distortions with fonz again!

Actually, you basically just provided the one reason: that the switch-to-hammer was scummy. And again, for the umpteenth time, your subsequent unvote when he was one of two leading wagons doesn't scream 'willing to fight for a spacecase lynch' to me.

One solid scumtell is enough for me. His reaction/defense to it was also scummy.

Are you seriously claiming I didn't push spacecase heavily day 3? Because I unvoted once? I voted for him on Feb 27th, and also on my 27th post. I held that vote until April 12th, or about 45 days, and 34 posts. Having been unable to get enough people behind him, when the deadline was initiated, I was willing to try other targets. While voting phate, I repeated "would still be glad to lynch spacecase, but as his wagon isn't going anywhere". And once Phate claimed doctor and I knew I was mistaken, I went right back to spacecase in my very next post. There's plenty of much more reasonable things you could go after, but going after me for not pushing spacecase hard enough is so far removed from reality that I seriously question your intentions.

And no, I didn't. I looked for behaviour which makes sense in an SK (SKs on the brain, lack of courage in convictions, general scumminess which didn't look like it suggested a link to the mafia group and so on) and found them in you.

It's possible to interpret most actions either from a scum or a town perspective. My point was you took mine and looked at them only from the possibility I was the SK, which is only half of the story. If the actions have just as much of explaination from a town perspective, you don't have much of a tell. See any of mine or username's recent posts talking about null tells.

My point is not that you are scummy for sometimes agreeing with people. My point is that your claim that I 'merely echo generic townie sentiment' is utter crap, and that in fact that claim could more convincingly be made against you than me.

I'll repost where I clarified exactly what I was trying to get at with that statement, because it seems like people are quoting the sound bite only and not really listening to what I actually said.

The point was that you aren't making many bold statements, that you haven't done much [original] scum hunting. The echoing statements are just what you're using to fill the void and remain an active poster.

Original added for clarification.

Day two: We both express that the Kab lynch isn't particularly good, but there is nothing better, really.

Your tape seems to be somewhat distorted. I specifically refused to support it and was hoping for scum to slip up so we could find a better lynch - you joined the kab wagon. I'd say that's fairly different. Maybe you weren't 100% confident, and you were already after the wagon had been hammered, but you still voted for him. I would have never voted for him that day, and this was even after he had been trying to vote for me for some pretty weak reasons. It's hard to show exactly why but I really felt his attacks were earnest town feelings. I couldn't see scum risking exposure on such a weak tell as his suspicion over my phrasing in that post. Maybe this was just more obvious to me because he was attacking me, so I took it personally. I was very disappointed in day 2.

Some references:
Shteven: Here's a post trying to warn Jesse and others not to lynch kab. He voted based on the wagon being inevitable and needing to end the day, which I urged against. No one else seemed to question such horrible motives.

Shteven: A last ditch effort to start a different wagon on Phate. Not any more accurate than Kab's wagon in hindsight, but I had a lot less faith in Phate on day 2 than I did in kab.

Fonz forcing a claim from kab.

Fonz voting for kab.

All posts taken from pages 14 or 15, so they are more or less at the same time. It is true the Fonz wasn't keen on the kab wagon early on but that changed, and claiming that we were on the same page day 2 is either very frustrating or laughable, depending on how seriously I take his posts. I specifically tried to generate something better several times, first by asking someone else to and finally by getting up and doing it myself. It just was too little too late. It does, however, serve as another example where I did something unique, and fonz followed the herd; the true meaning behind 'echoing town sentiments'. Not that you merely repeated what someone else said. One final example:

*Sighs*

This game annoys me. Because this Kab wagon is pretty crappy, and at the same time probably the best thing we have to go on, and therefore I don't find anyone scummy for being on it.

/seconded.

Read the post carefully - I said while I couldn't blame everyone for going with it, I did not endorse the wagon. My later posts (two linked above) proved this as I tried to discourge Jesse who had voted for Kab, and start a new wagon. The fonz may have known it was bad, but avoided confronting the town's consensus, eventually voting for Kab.

I won't go into as much detail, but your day 4 statements are exactly the same:

Day Four: My arguments against Oman were largely original, and had little to do with any 'generic town' sentiment against him. Indeed, as I noted above, those already voting him were the other leading suspects, due to their absence from the Spacewagon.

In short: Your specific arguments were original, the goal was not.

[iamausername]

those already voting him were the other leading suspects, due to their absence from the Spacewagon.

Fonz, please make note of this:

Spacecase - 6 (Rigel, TheFonz, Shteven, Phate,

Iamausername

, LaptopGun)

Would have corrected your misconception earlier if I'd realised that was why you were saying armlx and I were the leading suspects on D4.

[The Fonz]

Oooh, yet more Shteven distortions to respond to! Yummy!

Actually, you basically just provided the one reason: that the switch-to-hammer was scummy. And again, for the umpteenth time, your subsequent unvote when he was one of two leading wagons doesn't scream 'willing to fight for a spacecase lynch' to me.

One solid scumtell is enough for me. His reaction/defense to it was also scummy.

It may well have been. BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU SAID. You said you'd given several reasons to suspect him. That wasn't true.

Also:

Well, was kind of hoping a bit more would be here now, but in any case. I'm not a fan of the melodyman wagon. I've seen a lot of lynches based on single mistakes turn up town. Jumping on a wagon with poor/no reasons is something experienced scum really don't do much. You just end up lynching the unfortunate.

Are you seriously claiming I didn't push spacecase heavily day 3? Because I unvoted once? I voted for him on Feb 27th, and also on my 27th post. I held that vote until April 12th, or about 45 days, and 34 posts. Having been unable to get enough people behind him, when the deadline was initiated, I was willing to try other targets.

I'm not saying you didn't push him heavily initially. Hell, the whole Rigel business made it look like you were railroading him. My point is your unvote is utterly inconsistent with the attitude you claimed to have vis-a-vis Spacecase previously. If you are, as your defence of your Rigel ''mistake' indicates, 'desperate' to see spacecase lynched, you don't unvote him when he's the leading wagon and put another player tied with him.

While voting phate, I repeated "would still be glad to lynch spacecase, but as his wagon isn't going anywhere".

This is evidence in your favour how exactly? It perfectly supports the indifference hypothesis! You were willing to lynch spacecase, but you weren't actually that bothered!

And once Phate claimed doctor and I knew I was mistaken, I went right back to spacecase in my very next post.

WHAT! You think it's a tell in your favour that you reverted when the other player you were on CLAIMED DOCTOR!? Words fail me.

And no, I didn't. I looked for behaviour which makes sense in an SK (SKs on the brain, lack of courage in convictions, general scumminess which didn't look like it suggested a link to the mafia group and so on) and found them in you.

It's possible to interpret most actions either from a scum or a town perspective. My point was you took mine and looked at them only from the possibility I was the SK, which is only half of the story. If the actions have just as much of explaination from a town perspective, you don't have much of a tell. See any of mine or username's recent posts talking about null tells.

Bullshit. Pretty much everything can make sense from either perspective- you look for which perspective fits events better. In this case, Shteven-SK fits your actions better than Shteven-town, better than Shteven-scum.

The point was that you aren't making many bold statements, that you haven't done much [original] scum hunting. The echoing statements are just what you're using to fill the void and remain an active poster.

This is exactly my point. This plank of your 'case' applies equally, if not more so, to you!

Guess what? I can quote iam too!

I'm looking at his case on The Fonz, and I'm not seeing a lot of points that aren't either completely unsubstanciated, or equally applicable to Shteven himself.

Original added for clarification.

Day two: We both express that the Kab lynch isn't particularly good, but there is nothing better, really.

Your tape seems to be somewhat distorted. I specifically refused to support it and was hoping for scum to slip up so we could find a better lynch - you joined the kab wagon.

You were waiting around, hoping for 'scum' to 'slip up.' Gentlemen, need I say more?

You half-assedly pretended to 'push' a phate wagon. (Indeed, if one looks at your post there,

Compare this to my play. I re-read, and did my damnedest to find a better case, but couldn't. I thought I had something on phate, but a second look revealed that to be based on a misreading. As a result, I acquiesced in the Kab wagon, as the best we had.

Dragging things out, and 'hoping for the scum to slip up' is just incredibly scummy.

I'd say that's fairly different. Maybe you weren't 100% confident, and you were already after the wagon had been hammered, but you still voted for him. I would have never voted for him that day, and this was even after he had been trying to vote for me for some pretty weak reasons.

Even after you agreed with me that 'the KAb wagon isn't great, but it's the best we've got, so I don't find anyone scummy for being on it?'

It's hard to show exactly why but I really felt his attacks were earnest town feelings. I couldn't see scum risking exposure on such a weak tell as his suspicion over my phrasing in that post. Maybe this was just more obvious to me because he was attacking me, so I took it personally. I was very disappointed in day 2.

Here's a post trying to warn Jesse and others not to lynch kab. He voted based on the wagon being inevitable and needing to end the day, which I urged against. No one else seemed to question such horrible motives.

Those are actually fairly decent motives, and protown actions. Dragging the day out for the sake of it, as i've said, is scummy. If no-one has managed to get a viable counterwagon going, then it was better to go through with an, albeit flawed, Kab wagon than just hang around until everyone got bored.

And I end up joining the KAb wagon at the death, despite the fact he was going to be lynched anyway, based on a policy, regardless of the small matter that it wasn't a great lynch and there was a good chance of him coming up town.

You distanced from the wagon, sure, but you never attacked it.

Now you tell me: Which of those is the action of someone trying to 'keep his votecount down, ' trying to avoid attention?

All posts taken from pages 14 or 15, so they are more or less at the same time. It is true the Fonz wasn't keen on the kab wagon early on but that changed, and claiming that we were on the same page day 2 is either very frustrating or laughable, depending on how seriously I take his posts.

The Fonz wasn't keen on the Kab wagon right to the death, when I voted him when he conceded he didn't mind his own lynch, which is something town should never do. The main difference between us on day two is the difference between 'not sold, but it'll do, and willing to go through with it' and 'not sold, pretending to be opposed, but not actually really doing anything serious to stop it.'

I specifically tried to generate something better several times, first by asking someone else to

Scummy, hypocritical, hiding behind other players...

and finally by getting up and doing it myself.

In a really half-assed way, and indeed, somewhat following SSF.

It just was too little too late. It does, however, serve as another example where I did something unique, and fonz followed the herd; the true meaning behind 'echoing town sentiments'. Not that you merely repeated what someone else said. One final example:

It stands as an example of where Fonz did something protown, despite obvious reservations, and pushed the game forwards, whilst Shteven skulked and distanced himself, without actually making any kind of serious attempt to derail the wagon. Fonz was honest, and protown, and didn't try to score cheap townie points without changing the outcome.

Your point is that I 'followed the herd' by policy voting someone who was going to be lynched anyway (therefore tying myself to a lynch which was fairly like to be a town one) for a completely different reason to that given by anyone else.


[qute]

*Sighs*

This game annoys me. Because this Kab wagon is pretty crappy, and at the same time probably the best thing we have to go on, and therefore I don't find anyone scummy for being on it.

/seconded.

Read the post carefully - I said while I couldn't blame everyone for going with it, I did not endorse the wagon. My later posts (two linked above) proved this as I tried to discourge Jesse who had voted for Kab, and start a new wagon. The fonz may have known it was bad, but avoided confronting the town's consensus, eventually voting for Kab.[/quote]

You /seconded the entire post. Which includes the notion that the Kab wagon was the best we had.

I won't go into as much detail, but your day 4 statements are exactly the same:

Day Four: My arguments against Oman were largely original, and had little to do with any 'generic town' sentiment against him. Indeed, as I noted above, those already voting him were the other leading suspects, due to their absence from the Spacewagon.

In short: Your specific arguments were original, the goal was not.

It was a scum lynch, n'est-ce pas?I re-read, and determined that Oman was the scummiest. Should I have done otherwise, just for the sake of appearing 'different' Shteven? What did you think of the Oman case?

[Shteven]

I don't believe the fonz and I are ever going to resolve our reads of this game, so I'll try to keep this short.

I thought the oman wagon was solid. Being on it doesn't prove much in the way of being the SK. It might be a slight point towards not-mafia, but is null for anti-SK tells. I hadn't seen someone claim SK ever before in a game I've played, so I didn't immediately get that he was probably mafia, hence I was more cautious than necessary.

I should have not copied the 'kab is the best so far' part of the post before agreeing with it, but I didn't bother so the criticism is valid. I didn't know who scum was, but I knew kab wasn't it. My attempts to get other wagons started were earnest but I didn't manage to sway much of anyone. In hindsight I wish I had used stronger language on day 2.

Now you tell me: Which of those is the action of someone trying to 'keep his votecount down, ' trying to avoid attention?

It's futile to try to keep your vote count down, just like it's futile to keep your post count down. You'll be called for lurking and be policy lynched. If you want to lay low you have to vote, but vote carefully so as to not generate attention. It takes skill to survive as an SK.

[armlx]

Vote Shteven

I am confident enough with my choice to do this.

[-TinVision-]

Second Vote Count of the Day

Shteven (1) -

armlx

Not voting (4) -

iamausername, Shteven, The Fonz, vollkan

With 5 alive, it is 3 to lynch.