Mini 2074: Madness at Port Arthur (Game Over)


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Post Post #1875 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:45 am

Post by Blake Belladonna »

In post 1793, Persivul wrote:
In post 1787, Blake Belladonna wrote:I believe his claim is NAI.
I really doubt that you think governors are 50/50 town/scum. It's this kind of statement that shows you're not being honest, and you have an agenda.
In post 1794, Persivul wrote:Me pushing Blake's predecessor before Smile and skitter became bigger targets. May be the reason she came in gunning for me.

Spoiler:
In post 105, Persivul wrote:So far tris is playing nothing like she did in Room Odds, in which she was town.
In post 113, Persivul wrote:
In post 107, tris wrote:
In post 105, Persivul wrote:So far tris is playing nothing like she did in Room Odds, in which she was town.
This is accurate.
Why the change?
In post 550, Persivul wrote:
In post 523, tris wrote:For some reason it seems like no one's really expressed a read on me. Does anyone want to give it a shot?
Sure - scummy side of null. Your ISO is a bunch of questions without pushes. You occasionally put a post in tags and say you don't like it but don't give specific reasons.
In post 551, Persivul wrote:
In post 525, tris wrote:
In post 432, RCEnigma wrote:I have reason to believe ceejay may be town
Do you want to say more on this?
In post 527, tris wrote:
In post 521, tris wrote:
In post 520, skitter30 wrote: @tris can i interest you in joining the rce wagon?
Yeah, VOTE: RCEnigma I'll have a bit more to say in a moment.
Actually, I don't really have much more to say.
In post 528, tris wrote:
In post 524, Fuscezu wrote:town
Why?
And...you keep on doing it.
In post 553, Persivul wrote:
In post 547, Persivul wrote: Could have gotten something going? It was going nowhere. It was a waste to have it there. shiidaji otoh is a viable wagon and whatever happens with it, we'll get some info out of it.
Rather shii
was
a viable wagon at the time of my vote. Looks like people are waiting for the replacement. In the meantime:
VOTE: tris
Everybody, keep a note of these posts. This is a blatant attempt by Persivul to push back on me for pushing on him as hard as I have today.

I strongly expect that if Persivul was town this game and believed this was the source of my push on him, he would have brought this up far earlier than this, as early as when I initially pushed him at the start of the day.
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Post Post #1876 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 11:48 am

Post by Irrelephant11 »

How does governor work? Persivul activates it whenever? Or it only works after lynching him?
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Post Post #1877 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:01 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

In post 1808, Irrelephant11 wrote:
In post 1775, Blake Belladonna wrote:If it helps, I've glanced at a few of Persivul's past games to double check this. It's been directly indicative every single time.

He is scum.
FWIW if you detail what you’re talking about here I’ll reconsider
One thing that I've noticed throughout a lot of Persivul's entrances is this.

As town, he's actively making an attempt to sort people and get information that he needs to get reads.
As scum, he forces content when he feels like he has to and ends up with weird justifications for his pushes.

This is a fairly common thing for players that are around average to above average. A lot of people don't seem to look for this kind of thing, but the difference is very obvious when you know to look for it. The way he's been posting this game early on is a tonal roller coaster. The way he posts and pushes his reads have no actual bite behind them, he just throws them out there and retracts them when they get a response. My impression of his gameplay has been trying to find the perfect spot to coast on while prodding to see what he can get away with. When he actually does make some kind of effort in the game, it's very reactive and is tailored specifically to the situation at hand rather than an internal thought process.

Early in the game? He pokes at people's posting, and backs off when he gets pushback on it or it has a logically consistent answer.

His vote on Smile is directly after you push for him to join the wagon. Note that he doesn't have any particular scumread on that slot, nor is initially willing to lynch the slot despite the wagon on them already existing. He looks entirely like he's compromising on the slot when he joins the wagon.

Later on, he vanishes for most of day two.

Day three? He's approaching me with discredits and arguments for why he is town, but he is not looking to solve the game or work with the solve that everybody else has. He doesn't act like he's been scumreading my slot the entire time, despite the fact that he apparently has been. The way he responded to my initial case was to strawman and discredit it, not actually use it to sort me or convince people that the push itself is scum indicative. When he starts getting more pressure later on, he starts pushing against every point against him by pushing me as the scum instead of him. He argues that his claim, despite being unproven, is town indicative. He uses the lynch on the third party as an excuse for him being town.

His entire mindset this game isn't town. He's been operating under a scum mindset this entire time.
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Post Post #1878 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:05 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

In post 1816, Blake Belladonna wrote:I don't especially agree with anybody getting towncred for the Smile wagon outside of Irrelephant and insomnia, despite my reservations with how Smile and Irrelephant interacted at the very end.

Everybody else was along for the ride.
This is still true.

Persivul essentially sheeped Irrelephant onto the Smile wagon. Him attempting to snatch towncred for it today as a defense is completely bogus.
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Post Post #1879 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:33 pm

Post by ClearlyClarity »

In post 1857, Blake Belladonna wrote:
In post 1855, Fuscosco wrote:Then who are you suggesting.
I'm town.
insomnia is town.
ceejayvinoya and ClearlyClarity are town via roles.
Fuscezu is probably third party, but otherwise town.
Irrelephant11 is cop cleared.
Succinct is town via personality tell.

That literally leaves RCEnigma and Persivul.

If that isn't the scumteam, then we have one of the following situations.

1. Irrelephant11 is not cop cleared and is scum. This would mean Chara screwed up by heavily implying Irrelephant11 was cop cleared.
2. The jailkeeper claims don't actually clear each other and one of them is scum.
3. I'm wrong on one of my other town reads. I don't currently believe this to be the case.
4. There is only one scum alive.
Not a thing. My role PM says both Jailkeepers are town; if I'm scum, CJ would be able to contest that claim. If CJ's scum, my claim about the two town JKs would be false. We're confirmed the same alignment no matter what at this point. Combined with the mod soft, that indicates we're cleared 95% of the time.
Call me whatever you want...
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Post Post #1880 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:33 pm

Post by ClearlyClarity »

VOTE: Persivul
Call me whatever you want...
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Post Post #1881 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:50 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 1873, Blake Belladonna wrote: Firstly, if you believe there is a cop in the game with an innocent result on you, wouldn't your first instinct be to protect the cop from nightkills over the governor?
Of course. That's why I didn't say anything about my belief that irrel was a cop until the real cop flipped.
Secondly, I'm going to state for the record that I will only buy the claim when it is confirmed.
If the claim is confirmed, will your read on me change?
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Post Post #1882 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 1:56 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

In post 1881, Persivul wrote:
In post 1873, Blake Belladonna wrote: Firstly, if you believe there is a cop in the game with an innocent result on you, wouldn't your first instinct be to protect the cop from nightkills over the governor?
Of course. That's why I didn't say anything about my belief that irrel was a cop until the real cop flipped.
Secondly, I'm going to state for the record that I will only buy the claim when it is confirmed.
If the claim is confirmed, will your read on me change?
1. Then why did you not play like town to protect the cop rather than like scum because you can protect yourself?

2. No.
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Post Post #1883 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:03 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 1882, Blake Belladonna wrote: 1. Then why did you not play like town to protect the cop rather than like scum because you can protect yourself?
Irrel hasn't been killed, so...what are you going on about?
2. No.
Then why do you bring it up?
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Post Post #1884 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:07 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

Why does Irrelephant not having died yet have any impact on my question?

I'm telling you that the way you played the game is incongruent with you believing there is a town cop in the game with a correct innocent result on you. This goes back to day one, before there were any nightkills in the game. You've played the game like your role matters more than his.

I bring up not believing your claim because it is unproven, yet you've already been making arguments like you should be town for it.
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Post Post #1885 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:08 pm

Post by Irrelephant11 »

In post 1877, Blake Belladonna wrote:
In post 1808, Irrelephant11 wrote:
In post 1775, Blake Belladonna wrote:If it helps, I've glanced at a few of Persivul's past games to double check this. It's been directly indicative every single time.

He is scum.
FWIW if you detail what you’re talking about here I’ll reconsider
One thing that I've noticed throughout a lot of Persivul's entrances is this.

As town, he's actively making an attempt to sort people and get information that he needs to get reads.
As scum, he forces content when he feels like he has to and ends up with weird justifications for his pushes.

This is a fairly common thing for players that are around average to above average. A lot of people don't seem to look for this kind of thing, but the difference is very obvious when you know to look for it. The way he's been posting this game early on is a tonal roller coaster. The way he posts and pushes his reads have no actual bite behind them, he just throws them out there and retracts them when they get a response. My impression of his gameplay has been trying to find the perfect spot to coast on while prodding to see what he can get away with. When he actually does make some kind of effort in the game, it's very reactive and is tailored specifically to the situation at hand rather than an internal thought process.

Early in the game? He pokes at people's posting, and backs off when he gets pushback on it or it has a logically consistent answer.

His vote on Smile is directly after you push for him to join the wagon. Note that he doesn't have any particular scumread on that slot, nor is initially willing to lynch the slot despite the wagon on them already existing. He looks entirely like he's compromising on the slot when he joins the wagon.

Later on, he vanishes for most of day two.

Day three? He's approaching me with discredits and arguments for why he is town, but he is not looking to solve the game or work with the solve that everybody else has. He doesn't act like he's been scumreading my slot the entire time, despite the fact that he apparently has been. The way he responded to my initial case was to strawman and discredit it, not actually use it to sort me or convince people that the push itself is scum indicative. When he starts getting more pressure later on, he starts pushing against every point against him by pushing me as the scum instead of him. He argues that his claim, despite being unproven, is town indicative. He uses the lynch on the third party as an excuse for him being town.

His entire mindset this game isn't town. He's been operating under a scum mindset this entire time.
If I’m really honest this reads like a narration of Persivul’s ISO but just with “which is scummy” thrown in sometimes.

Can you give any examples of how his entrance here is different from a specific towngame of his? I’ll reread his ISO soon to see if I agree with “backing off when he gets pushback”
Why is it scummy that he is defending against your push? Why is it scummy that he argues his claim (which while unproven, is also easily disproven) is town-indicative? Isn’t it?
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Post Post #1886 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:18 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

I will get to the meta point tomorrow in more detail.

However, if you don't wish to wait, look at his past towngames and see when and how he starts sorting people. There is a very clear mindset behind his posting that makes it obvious he is looking to sort other slots. He's not doing it this game, as he is posturing instead.

I don't know how to respond to the rest, because I feel that the reason we aren't synced is because of playstyle differences. I'm assuming by what I've seen in this game so far is that you primarily work off more indirect methods of sorting people, primarily via how the gamestate moves around them, correct?
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Post Post #1887 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:19 pm

Post by Persivul »

In post 1884, Blake Belladonna wrote:Why does Irrelephant not having died yet have any impact on my question?
It shows that he wasn't playing like an important PR, and so there was no need to try to somehow protect him from the NK. Remember, my belief he was cop came from our personal background. Why would I think that someone else would pick up on it?
I bring up not believing your claim because it is unproven, yet you've already been making arguments like you should be town for it.
I'm arguing - correctly - that this role is town the vast majority of the time. People can test it if they want. Want me to vote for myself?

You're arguing - disingenuously - that such a role, even if proven, isn't AI.
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Post Post #1888 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:24 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

So you believe that a town leader was under no risk of being the nightkill despite not apparently playing like an important PR?
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Post Post #1889 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:29 pm

Post by Persivul »

Ah, now the backpedal to town leader.

Do you think your slot did all it could to try to protect the night leader from NK? How about other players with lesser PRs? Why are you only pushing me for it?

Also...how would you best make use of governor with ability to self-target? I'm pretty sure it's not by playing so townie you're never in danger of being lynched.
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Post Post #1890 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:33 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

In post 1887, Persivul wrote: I'm arguing - correctly - that this role is town the vast majority of the time. People can test it if they want. Want me to vote for myself?

You're arguing - disingenuously - that such a role, even if proven, isn't AI.
I'm arguing that your role claim doesn't excuse your play.

I don't care if you claim to be an innocent child, I won't believe it until I see it.
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Post Post #1891 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:34 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

In post 1889, Persivul wrote:Ah, now the backpedal to town leader.

Do you think your slot did all it could to try to protect the night leader from NK? How about other players with lesser PRs? Why are you only pushing me for it?

Also...how would you best make use of governor with ability to self-target? I'm pretty sure it's not by playing so townie you're never in danger of being lynched.
This is a misrep.

You had a unique mindset, of your own admission, that Irrelephant was a cop. No other slot had that same pressure.
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Post Post #1892 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:36 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

I'd also be very interested in knowing why you would play around having to use your governor ability when you admitted just a little bit ago that there were scum-indicative reasons to want to use your ability.
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Post Post #1893 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:37 pm

Post by Blake Belladonna »

Oh, but of course.

It's scum indicative because I want to prove your claim. It's not scum indicative when you want to play around protecting yourself with it.
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Post Post #1894 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:52 pm

Post by Persivul »

Image
Here I am!


VOTE: Persivul

I've PM'd mod that I'm governing myself. That's my one shot, even if I'm not lynched today (losing it's a risk, but if I'm not around after a lynch and die with it in pocket, that's obviously worse). So, you guys may as well lynch me today.
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Post Post #1895 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:55 pm

Post by Fuscosco »

I think we should lynch someone else and enjoy the even player game state.
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Post Post #1896 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:55 pm

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In post 1895, Fuscosco wrote:I think we should lynch someone else and enjoy the even player game state.
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Post Post #1897 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:57 pm

Post by Fuscezu »

In post 1894, Persivul wrote:Here I am!

VOTE: Persivul
1: I hope youre joking
2: I TR you. At least I have since I read.
3: You could have redirected on Succinct. Think of the Luls.
4: Yea, as I just said, Id honestly rather keep the gamestate in even playercount.
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Post Post #1898 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 2:59 pm

Post by Persivul »

I doubt I'd ever override the majority vote. And I think you're saying evens where you mean odds. But my vote's not moving, and I'll be a little pissed if I used my govern for nothing.
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Post Post #1899 (ISO) » Sat Jun 08, 2019 9:17 pm

Post by insomnia »

In post 1872, Blake Belladonna wrote:
In post 1788, insomnia wrote:
In post 1784, Blake Belladonna wrote:However, I can say confidently that every reason I've seen to townread Persivul is not town indicative. It's very doable to fake an attack on insomnia and to go along with an inno soft.
From an objective point of view, you're more likely to see this as town. However, being subjected to a type of push that I've encountered before it makes me more likely to believe the people that push me are more likely to be town. I am obvious town as town and that's why scum often times just avoid pushing me. That's why I think Persivul, someone that doesn't post much anyway, won't do that as scum.

While I respect the veterans and what not, gaslighting Irrelephant won't do anyone better. Even good players can have bad reads. I just think lynching Succint pegs us a scum here and I think the case on Persivul is a stretch. Meta can be manipulated easily. I find Persivul a hard person to read and I have respect for him, which is why I don't want to lynch him.

I believe he should've been the N0 check like 10/10 times here.
This case is fully dependent on whether Persivul has enough experience with you to know for a fact that this is true. Barring this, there's a point to be made that Persivul didn't go very far to push this read through. If you go back and look, his push ran out of gas almost immediately when you pushed back on him. He looked to deflect the push, then ignored it until you pushed the issue, and finally asked you a disengaging question before hopping off of you entirely.

If you really pay attention to what Persivul did on his push, it's not a point that he actually pushed you. His initial point was forced, and his response betrayed that there was no actual oomph behind it in the first place. It was a fake push.
Check out Newbie 1921 I believe it was. He knows how I usually play as town. We have a few games together. Just spectating games is easy to see, when have I ever been pushed by someone during the day and they didn’t back off after doing it? I’ve never been mislynched in my entire life as town lmao

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