Mini Normal 2080 ft. My Cats [Game Over]

Shoshin · Post Post #1241 (isolation #0) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:07 pm

I'd never willingly replace into a scum slot. This alone should tell you that I'm likely town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1243 (isolation #1) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:25 pm

The slot was obvtown. It's concerning that you don't see that.

Shoshin · Post Post #1244 (isolation #2) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:26 pm

What caused you to scumread my slot, U2?

Shoshin · Post Post #1247 (isolation #3) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:33 pm

Why are you still voting me, U2?

Shoshin · Post Post #1248 (isolation #4) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:35 pm

Nom's my strongest townread at the moment.

Shoshin · Post Post #1251 (isolation #5) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:40 pm

Why hasn't my replacement changed your read, U2? You think I'd replace into a scum slot?

Shoshin · Post Post #1254 (isolation #6) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:43 pm

I never replace into a slot that's scum. See, for example, viewtopic.php?p=11021122#p11021122

I thought you'd know this, U2. You were in a recent game I replaced out of as scum after posting almost nothing substantive.

Shoshin · Post Post #1259 (isolation #7) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:49 pm

In post 1256, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 1254, Shoshin wrote:I never replace into a slot that's scum. See, for example, viewtopic.php?p=11021122#p11021122

I thought you'd know this, U2. You were in a recent game I replaced out of as scum after posting almost nothing substantive.
I don't know what game you replaced out of as scum off the top of my head, but I remember you playing a lengthy mini as scum and you were well engaged throughout so

The recent newbie game with the worst. I was replaced after posting nothing substantive. My presence was so minimal that you don't even remember me in the game.

I have never played a lengthy mini as scum. The only mini I played as scum was short. I was lynched early on D1 after a bit of lurking.

Shoshin · Post Post #1260 (isolation #8) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:50 pm

My position is that I wouldn't willingly play scum if I had the option not to. If I sign up for game & get stuck with a scum PM, then I'll try. But replacing into a game? Only slots that are clearly town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1261 (isolation #9) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:51 pm

Nom's town because there's much deeper thinking than anything they've ever displayed as scum.

Shoshin · Post Post #1262 (isolation #10) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:52 pm

I don't care too much about being perceived as "icky," just stating the facts -- my choice to replace into this slot means it's very likely town, so much so that voting me is a bad idea.

Shoshin · Post Post #1265 (isolation #11) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:53 pm

Oh, the BoP game. I felt obligated to play that out.

Shoshin · Post Post #1266 (isolation #12) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:54 pm

If you assume I'm town, what're your reads? A question for both Pika & U2.

Shoshin · Post Post #1268 (isolation #13) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 2:56 pm

VOTE: u r a person 2

Shoshin · Post Post #1278 (isolation #14) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:40 pm

Buj seems fairly town. I like that he's voting U2.

Shoshin · Post Post #1280 (isolation #15) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:42 pm

Are you finally town, Skitter? I miss town you.

Shoshin · Post Post #1284 (isolation #16) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:46 pm

I didn't tell the mod I wouldn't replace if scum so I don't think it's a trust tell. I don't see anything wrong with exclusively replacing into slots that I strongly townread? I also don't see anything wrong with using that fact to argue that I'm very likely town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1286 (isolation #17) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:47 pm

I don't think it's necessary to explain why the slot is town. You know enough about me to know I'm not lying when I say the slot was towny before I replaced in.

Shoshin · Post Post #1287 (isolation #18) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:48 pm

Let's say Buj, Skitter, Teacher, Flubber as town, then.

Shoshin · Post Post #1288 (isolation #19) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:48 pm

U2 as scum.

Shoshin · Post Post #1291 (isolation #20) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:57 pm

I've never actually replaced out of a game as scum. My point is that I have a strong enough preference for playing town, and good enough reads, that me replacing into a slot should mean something.

Shoshin · Post Post #1292 (isolation #21) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 3:58 pm

What's your read on U2?

Shoshin · Post Post #1297 (isolation #22) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:05 pm

I promise my slot will be obvtown before the end of D2. I'm not going to spend more time on that topic.

Shoshin · Post Post #1301 (isolation #23) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:06 pm

I'm adding Nero/Vorkuta to the list of town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1302 (isolation #24) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:07 pm

You're town because I want scum to consider killing you instead of me tonight. How's that for an answer?

Shoshin · Post Post #1312 (isolation #25) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:13 pm

I townread you in that other game for no reason, up until the point I didn't.

Shoshin · Post Post #1316 (isolation #26) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:15 pm

Which explanations do you find ridiculous, Pika?

Shoshin · Post Post #1320 (isolation #27) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:19 pm

In post 1315, skitter30 wrote:yeah so u know i have a wide scumrange, why are you townreading me here .... i literally just duped you for several dayphases till i got myself nk'd for being too townie

You actually didn't dupe me for any complete day phases. I townread you on D1 up until the point I scumread you, still on D1, for pushing that awful mislynch on Chemist, at which point I expressly said you weren't a townread anymore.

I gave you the actual answer as to why I'm town on you at the moment.

Shoshin · Post Post #1321 (isolation #28) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:21 pm

Also, Skitter. I was the main person pushing the idea that you were town in that game. You were "too townie" in part because I threw out a townread on you without actually meaning it. This is one of my strategies, and I don't usually talk about it openly but since you seemed intent on knowing, I'm telling you the truth. The townread is mostly a farce to make scum think you're town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1324 (isolation #29) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:23 pm

I'd guess at least one scum in Pika/U2.

Shoshin · Post Post #1330 (isolation #30) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:33 pm

Town:

Nom
Buj
Nero
Vork
Flub
Cinn

Shoshin · Post Post #1331 (isolation #31) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:33 pm

I think there's a strong likelihood that scum kill me tonight.

Shoshin · Post Post #1333 (isolation #32) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:37 pm

You think I'm scum, teacher?

Shoshin · Post Post #1334 (isolation #33) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:38 pm

I'm thinking one scum in Dunn/Salad, one scum in Pika/U2, and one scum in teacher/Skitter.

This feels about right.

Shoshin · Post Post #1335 (isolation #34) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:38 pm

I take that back. Skitter's town. Pika's town via Skitter.

That leaves U2, teacher, and one of Dunn/Salad.

Shoshin · Post Post #1336 (isolation #35) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:38 pm

Game's almost solved.

Shoshin · Post Post #1340 (isolation #36) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:42 pm

Pika's town, for sure. That's a legitimately excellent question.

Shoshin · Post Post #1344 (isolation #37) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:51 pm

In post 1342, Vorkuta wrote:Not gonna lie this read seems really really really forced/faked FMPoV

It's not forced/faked. I'm still reviewing & thinking about how to answer that question because it went right to the heart of Dunn's alignments. Scum don't focus in on precisely the stuff that matters in this way, so it's quite the town question from Pika.

Shoshin · Post Post #1345 (isolation #38) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:57 pm

In post 1339, Detective Pikachu wrote:what did you think of this, Sho?

Observations:

1. I was in 2058. Scum Morality claimed miller. Scum were caught on D1 by me & RC before we replaced out. Town somehow didn't lynch any of them. It's not surprising that Vorkuta was traumatized. I'd be surprised if he didn't push for miller lynches.

2. I like the aggressiveness of Dunn's questioning, as well as taking the time to read Vork's games. I don't like that Dunn sort of skimmed the games & didn't seem to know exactly what Vork was talking about.

3. I find Dunn's focus on Nero to possibly mean things that I'll keep to myself for now.

Shoshin · Post Post #1346 (isolation #39) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:58 pm

Let's say Dunn's town for now. That leaves U2, Salad, and Teacher as scum.

Shoshin · Post Post #1347 (isolation #40) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 4:59 pm

In post 1342, Vorkuta wrote:Not gonna lie this read seems really really really forced/faked FMPoV

This isn't typically how scum respond to someone who just townread them, by the way.

Shoshin · Post Post #1349 (isolation #41) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:01 pm

I have Nom, Buj, Pika, Dunn, Cinn, Flub, Nero, & Vork as varying degrees of town.

That leaves U2, Teacher, & Salad as scum. Can we lynch in this group today?

Shoshin · Post Post #1355 (isolation #42) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:26 pm

A town case on ED (for the non-believers):

Spoiler:

In post 7, EvilDeanius wrote:Please designate your best player so I may vote them to assert dominance

This is absurdly aggressive in ways that scum don't typically play. The level of confidence is unlikely from scum when playing in a new environment with unfamiliar players & meta norms.

In post 143, EvilDeanius wrote:I can see Vork's point about the "Don't know how to play this" comment at the beginning, but the rest of the points I don't really get. Adding the WIFOM of it being a modifier can only help us. If somebody scum reads them, the fact that they've softed PR should mean nothing until they make an actual claim.

In post 116, Flubbernugget wrote:Im drunk
Oh boy, I've been here before.

In post 142, NerfedBuJ wrote:
In post 7, EvilDeanius wrote:Please designate your best player so I may vote them to assert dominance
You are

(Checkmate)
Oh cool, the whole point was to let you guys know this as it's my first game on this site, but it seems the message has already been received. Excellent.

Very natural & smooth tone, difficult to fake. The nuance in his reply to Vork is very towny ("I get X, but don't get Y) and suggests there's no agenda underlying his approach to the game.

In post 149, EvilDeanius wrote:What purpose does PLing a Miller ever have?

Well-timed question. Pushing back in this way was needed here. If Cinn is town, this is especially towny because it's working to prevent an unnecessary mislynch based on policy.

In post 222, EvilDeanius wrote:
In post 153, NerfedBuJ wrote:
In post 149, EvilDeanius wrote:What purpose does PLing a Miller ever have?
Annihilates the chances of any scum winning by claiming it.
You can apply that to any role, the only difference is the inability to investigate it.

An investigative role isn't going to be able to check everyone, so you treat it the same as an unchecked VT, lynch them if they're scummy, keep them alive if they're not. Lynching them purely because of the claim doesn't make sense.

Fearlessly pushing in the right direction despite playing in a new environment. This is town more often than not.

In post 289, EvilDeanius wrote:
In post 244, Vorkuta wrote:Dilemma
>wanting to lynch a scummy playstyle
>knowing that town!X has this scummy playstyle

Applies to Buj as well
The meta would be way more telling than just the playstyle.

In post 262, nomnomnom wrote:
In post 261, Vorkuta wrote:I'm saying that "I'm not obligated to BUT I will anyway"
The 2 signals are not mutually exclusive, but COMPLEMENTARY
The literal definition of LAMIST but yeah I'm just having "leaps of logic" lmao

okay bud
You can't apply LAMIST when you're attacking them for scummy behavior, and they counter by saying it isn't scummy. That's not LAMIST, that's just defending yourself.

These are towny responses, getting people to focus on issues with the right perspective, rather than remaining silent or distorting information to push possible mislynches.

In post 557, EvilDeanius wrote:
In post 550, nomnomnom wrote:
In post 545, NerfedBuJ wrote:Either he is scum's pick for day 1 mislynch
Why would scum pick town!vorkuta as a day 1 mislynch? I mean objectively speaking if you were scum here, wouldn't your mind go towards the more lurk-ish people, where it's easier to make a case on? Because that's definitely easier than to go against a player like vorkuta here.
Because you get the loud/good players out of the way early, so you can mislynch the lurky players later with little resistance. You always try to mislynch/kill those with thread presence early.

This is another pro-town push in perspective that helps to prevent mislynches & provides a valuable way of thinking about how scum are likely to play.

In post 735, EvilDeanius wrote:
In post 659, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 557, EvilDeanius wrote:
In post 550, nomnomnom wrote:
In post 545, NerfedBuJ wrote:Either he is scum's pick for day 1 mislynch
Why would scum pick town!vorkuta as a day 1 mislynch? I mean objectively speaking if you were scum here, wouldn't your mind go towards the more lurk-ish people, where it's easier to make a case on? Because that's definitely easier than to go against a player like vorkuta here.
Because you get the loud/good players out of the way early, so you can mislynch the lurky players later with little resistance. You always try to mislynch/kill those with thread presence early.
Why did you choose to make this the subject of your first post after 10+ pages of content?
This was supposed to be closely followed by a reads list I'm half way through. But unfortunately irl stuff got in the way, then I got distracted and it's still only like half done rn.

Main issue I'm having is alot of my reading ability relies on meta, and as alot of you also seem to be quoting meta as reasons to vote each other, I'm finding it difficult to place people. I wanted to challenge myself by coming to a different site where I didn't know anybody to help improve this, but so far it's not gone well. Though I also know that my D1s are typically rather weak compared to my plays later in the game.. I'll work on the rest of the reads list today, but I know it's a fairly busy day for me today, so I can't promise anything.

Just some things of note so far:

Miller claim is v. likely town to me rn.

Vork v Nom reading as TvT to me.

Lynch pool for me as of rn is Teacher/Pika. I've not really disliked anyone on teacher's wagon so I can see it being pure, whereas Pika is kinda just gut atm. There's not alot there that I particularly dislike but there was a point where people seemed to start talking about him for lack of proper content, at which point he then switched to pushing on others who also hadn't done anything/alot. The timing just seems like a deflection to me, it seems off.

Again, very natural & smooth tone, difficult to fake. This isn't the type of post that scum make very often.

I agree strongly with the main points (miller is likely town, Vork/Nom as town, and Teacher/Pika as scummy at this point). The specific point he makes about timing seems very town to me as well, as scum don't typically read this closely or pay attention to timing in this way. The transparency about not having much to dislike was also very towny, unlikely to come from scum.

In post 841, EvilDeanius wrote:
In post 736, Detective Pikachu wrote:
In post 735, EvilDeanius wrote:There's not alot there that I particularly dislike but there was a point where people seemed to start talking about him for lack of proper content, at which point he then switched to pushing on others who also hadn't done anything/alot. The timing just seems like a deflection to me, it seems off.
This is a good observation insofar as people pushing me for content when I don't really feel like doing things on day 1 tends to work, but I don't think it's a great reason to "gut" scumread me

Can you expand on your Vork townread (given you list him as TvT with nomnom)? That's been the basis for a good part of Dunn's iso so it would help me if you could comment on whether you see Dunn's push as townie if Vork town is one of your stronger/only reads.
Vork seems town because I feel like they would be more cautious about their pushes as scum. I don't think scum immediately attacks a miller claim in the way that they did, they just sort of let it sit for a while. They've also been very self assured of their pushes, and I think that comes with someone who cares more about lynching scum than just appearing townie.

Excellent explanation on why Vork is town.

I don't see anything scummy in any of ED's posts. I'm not sure why anyone ever scumread him, and I'm confident there's at least one scum voting him (and according to process of elimnation, two scum in U2 & Teacher).

Shoshin · Post Post #1356 (isolation #43) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:27 pm

I have a lot of respect for both U2 & Teacher as players. The fact they'd get ED so wrong when he's played quite well is very concerning.

Shoshin · Post Post #1360 (isolation #44) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:49 pm

I've never replaced a scum slot.

Shoshin · Post Post #1361 (isolation #45) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:50 pm

I've also never incorrectly townread someone with conviction behind the read, except for Irrelephant one time.

Shoshin · Post Post #1362 (isolation #46) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:50 pm

But like, 99% of my townreads have been correct across my games.

Shoshin · Post Post #1365 (isolation #47) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:01 pm

Cinn & Flub, please unvote me.

Shoshin · Post Post #1367 (isolation #48) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:02 pm

In post 1364, Saladman27 wrote:Shoshin why do you think I’m scum?

Lack of town tells.

Shoshin · Post Post #1368 (isolation #49) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:03 pm

In post 1366, teacher wrote:
In post 1363, u r a person 2 wrote:how'd they miss you for paragon
Ftw.

@sho - we’ve only played once together and you misread me that game too. And hardtowned scum. here (also 955/960).

Um, no. The one game we played together, everyone in the game thought you were scum EXCEPT me. I called you town all game. Then Irrelephant randomly hammered you in LYLO before I had a chance to fully weigh in.

Shoshin · Post Post #1370 (isolation #50) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:06 pm

I had by far the best reads of any townie in the game Teacher's citing. You can check the game for this if you don't believe. Also, Vork, you were in 2058. You should know for a fact my reads are good.

Shoshin · Post Post #1373 (isolation #51) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:50 pm

You're conceding, Salad?

Shoshin · Post Post #1375 (isolation #52) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:51 pm

In post 1371, NerfedBuJ wrote:It's so much more pleasant not being called 'out of touch with reality' by her.

I do think that's one of your town tells. You lose touch sometimes as town, never as scum.

Shoshin · Post Post #1376 (isolation #53) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 6:52 pm

You scumread Pika, Buj?

Shoshin · Post Post #1379 (isolation #54) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:00 pm

Sometimes your reads are good, Buj. It's not all bad. But anyway. Why is Pika scum?

Salad could be town. It's hard to say with certainty. I'd lynch U2/Teacher before him.

Shoshin · Post Post #1384 (isolation #55) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:24 pm

Assuming I'm town, what're your reads, Pika?

Shoshin · Post Post #1386 (isolation #56) » Mon Jun 17, 2019 7:56 pm

I'd like to know what changes under the assumption that I'm town. Locktown.

Shoshin · Post Post #1410 (isolation #57) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:51 am

In post 1388, Detective Pikachu wrote:I kinda feel like abstractly the arguments for Nero town are kinda similar to the arguments for Teacher town? 'sortable by activity, therefore town'? I'm not sure why the two are being read so differently when I feel like the underlying logic in reading each is similar, at least for a few of the people

I disagree that Teacher's "sortable by activity." As for Nero, there's other reasons that don't have to do with activity. But he's not a strong town read. He could be scum.

Shoshin · Post Post #1411 (isolation #58) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:52 am

In post 1392, nomnomnom wrote:I don't think we have?

I was your teammate in Undertale. Papyrus.

Shoshin · Post Post #1412 (isolation #59) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:53 am

In post 1395, Detective Pikachu wrote:I kinda want to move salad back to town, it's not 100% lock but this is like a pretty impressive job of emulating his towngame if he's scum.

I've been slowly coming to this conclusion myself as I make my way through the game more carefully.

Shoshin · Post Post #1413 (isolation #60) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 3:56 am

In post 963, Detective Pikachu wrote: Urap struggles to generate organic townreads connected to specific points as scum so these posts are all fairly town indicative for him

Not 100% but I'd say my read on him for this is way above random for this game at least. Probably won't work in next but *shrug*

What scum games have you read from U2?

Shoshin · Post Post #1414 (isolation #61) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:06 am

I'm removing Nero from list of town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1417 (isolation #62) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:16 am

Tell me why you're still scum reading Vork.

Shoshin · Post Post #1418 (isolation #63) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:23 am

In post 857, Flubbernugget wrote:VOTE: nom

This was an awful vote from Flubb.

Shoshin · Post Post #1420 (isolation #64) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:26 am

It came right after one of your towniest posts.

Shoshin · Post Post #1421 (isolation #65) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:39 am

Nom's 851 should've cleared up Flubb's concerns. But Flubb ignores the sensible towny explanation, looks for reasons to continue attacking Nom in 856, and then votes him. This interaction doesn't feel natural for a townie at all.

Shoshin · Post Post #1426 (isolation #66) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:42 am

In post 899, teacher wrote:VOTE: deanius

Awful vote from Teacher. As bad as Flubb's vote on Nom. The timing is especially opportunistic if you assume Pika's town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1427 (isolation #67) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:44 am

In post 903, Nero Cain wrote:I feel like he's scum's last-minute designated ML and I remember liking some of his posts.

Nero's right about this, but not sure if it comes from town Nero. Nero's usually a lot more critical of lurkers as town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1429 (isolation #68) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:48 am

In post 963, Detective Pikachu wrote:Urap struggles to generate organic townreads connected to specific points as scum so these posts are all fairly town indicative for him

Not 100% but I'd say my read on him for this is way above random for this game at least. Probably won't work in next but *shrug*

Skitter, what's your take on U2's scum meta? Do you agree with Pika's assessment?

Shoshin · Post Post #1430 (isolation #69) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:49 am

In post 1428, teacher wrote:Again, the same question Nero dodges: why was seven days before deadline “last minute”?

Scummy question from Teacher. Nitpicking pointless stuff, missing the bigger picture.

Shoshin · Post Post #1431 (isolation #70) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:50 am

In post 966, Detective Pikachu wrote:Basically as scum he talks about townie things town is doing way less, he pretends to scumhunt but he struggles to townblock as part of his solving. Its a problem a lot of scum have

This seems untrue in my experience.

Shoshin · Post Post #1433 (isolation #71) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:52 am

In post 976, nomnomnom wrote:@DP do you REALLY think ED is the best vote right now after everything you highlighted? Genuine question.

Very strong questioning from Nom. Confirms my town read on this slot.

Shoshin · Post Post #1434 (isolation #72) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:54 am

I'm not voting you, Teacher. Why are you still voting me? I explained why ED was town.

Shoshin · Post Post #1436 (isolation #73) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 4:57 am

Why did you suspect ED? Why do you find me scummy? Why do you disagree with my analysis on ED?

Shoshin · Post Post #1438 (isolation #74) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:09 am

In post 1171, nomnomnom wrote:VOTE: EvilD

I guess I'll make the first step towards building a cohesive town then.

EvilD is the more problematic slot in the pool you guys want to go for so I guess this is our lynch today.

Awful vote from Nom.

Shoshin · Post Post #1439 (isolation #75) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:12 am

In post 1437, teacher wrote:Lurker who made few game relevant comments. How hard it was/is to pick up wagon on slot. Mostly townreading the wagon.

On your analysis, walking through that wall is more than I want to do on mobile, so that will get kicked to tonight.

Why is vork town?

1. Lurking isn't AI. The slot replaced out, which means they probably didn't have enough time for the game.

2. ED's was the largest wagon when I replaced into the game. You can't say it's "hard" to build a wagon on the biggest wagon in the game. It's also a terrible idea to read players based on the difficulty of building wagons around them. There's only so many scum in a game to protect each other, and scum tend to bus their own in situations like this anyway.

3. Who are you town reading on the wagon, and why are you assuming these players are automatically correct about ED's alignment?

4. You haven't said anything about why you find me scummy. Why are you still voting my slot?

Shoshin · Post Post #1440 (isolation #76) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:13 am

I get the sense Teacher's having trouble fluidly changing his reads based on new information.

Shoshin · Post Post #1444 (isolation #77) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:17 am

In post 1441, Flubbernugget wrote:
In post 1421, Shoshin wrote:Nom's 851 should've cleared up Flubb's concerns. But Flubb ignores the sensible towny explanation, looks for reasons to continue attacking Nom in 856, and then votes him. This interaction doesn't feel natural for a townie at all.
This got cleared up like 5 posts after the one you linked

You mean after Skitter voted & pushed you? This doesn't change the fact that you had an awful response to Nom.

Shoshin · Post Post #1445 (isolation #78) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:17 am

I talk about myself a lot in all my games, nothing scummy about that.

Shoshin · Post Post #1446 (isolation #79) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:25 am

What're your current reads Flubb?

Shoshin · Post Post #1449 (isolation #80) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:27 am

VOTE: Teacher

Shoshin · Post Post #1451 (isolation #81) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:36 am

I'm voting you because you don't have legitimate reasons to vote me.

Shoshin · Post Post #1452 (isolation #82) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:44 am

Reasons to vote Teacher:

1. Teacher knows better than to tunnel a lurker who got replaced by an active slot, because Teacher has lurked as town in similar ways to ED, including the eventual replacement on D1. This lapse in judgment is inexcusable from Teacher.

2. Teacher should have reevaluated my slot after I replaced. Instead, Teacher ignored the mounting evidence that I'm town, including the fact that I replaced into the game (a town tell), the fact that I read the whole game (a town tell), and the fact that I'm actively engaging in the game in real-time interactions (a town tell). This is unlike town Teacher, who tends to keep much more of an open mind about reads.

3. Teacher says he finds me scummy, but gives no reasons for saying so. This is unlike town Teacher, because unlike me, town Teacher answers every question & explains his reads in great detail. He deflected the question about why he finds me scummy by giving reasons to suspect ED. Of course, talking about why ED's scummy isn't responsive to the question of why he finds my behavior scummy.

4. In general, his play & thought process is lacking in depth. I can't point to a single post from him that shows the level of thinking that I've seen from town Teacher, even in games where town Teacher is lurking. The absence of in-depth thinking is strongly scum indicative for this slot.

Shoshin · Post Post #1453 (isolation #83) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:52 am

For comparison, notice that Pika immediately unvoted me after replacing & eventually moved me into towny territory. This is how town responds to the replacement. Scum get upset that they have to deal with me & double down on voting even though they don't have reasons to do so.

Shoshin · Post Post #1454 (isolation #84) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:54 am

In post 1447, teacher wrote:DP, urap, cinnamon, Flubber. Most of the wagon.

Why is Flubb town?

Why is U2 town?

What's your read on Nom?

Shoshin · Post Post #1456 (isolation #85) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:57 am

In post 1455, Flubbernugget wrote:What do you say to someone mentioning that teacher is easily read by post count?

They're incorrect. Teacher's activity depends on how busy he is, which itself turns on what's happening in his teaching career. It has nothing to do with his alignment. If he says otherwise, he's lying.

Shoshin · Post Post #1457 (isolation #86) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 5:59 am

What're your reads, Flubb?

Shoshin · Post Post #1458 (isolation #87) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:02 am

In post 1306, Flubbernugget wrote:Allow me to add to the slime by bettint there'd be mod intervention by now if shoshin wasn't full of crap ie was trust telling

VOTE: shoshin

Let's go back to this post, too. You're voting me because the mod is letting the game play out instead of doing something that would effectively confirm my slot as town? What kind of logic is this?

What're your actual reads based on behaviors?

Shoshin · Post Post #1462 (isolation #88) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:31 am

In post 1459, teacher wrote:2. I did not find your replacement town indicative. I think you likely did townread the slot. Uraps take on your case is similar to mine - you may have thought it but that doesn’t make it right. Nor do I find your activity levels towny. You are selectively slicing and refusing to answer straightforward questions (ahem, vork). And reading the whole game is BS. I’ve seen scum do that many many times. If anything, I think it’s more +scum, but generally treat it as NAI.

3. I have given reasons. You find them illegitimate. I will answer in more detail when I’m not mobileposting, just as I said. Not recognizing real life limitations - that I post in late evening early morning - is scummy coming from you who claims such familiarity with my play. In my view, you’re trying to chip away at the townblock that has already taken too long to form this game.

1. I selectively don't answer questions as town all the time. This is a town tell for me.

2. Reading the whole game isn't bullshit, I slowly went through the whole thing & finished this morning. This is a town tell for me, regardless whether you've seen other scum do it.

3. Activity is a town tell for me.

Please refer me to the post where you give reasons to scumread me.

Shoshin · Post Post #1463 (isolation #89) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:31 am

In post 1461, teacher wrote:Answer the vork question.

Same as ED.

Shoshin · Post Post #1464 (isolation #90) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:32 am

In post 1459, teacher wrote:In my view, you’re trying to chip away at the townblock that has already taken too long to form this game.

What's the townblock? I didn't see any.

Shoshin · Post Post #1466 (isolation #91) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:35 am

In post 841, EvilDeanius wrote:Vork seems town because I feel like they would be more cautious about their pushes as scum. I don't think scum immediately attacks a miller claim in the way that they did, they just sort of let it sit for a while. They've also been very self assured of their pushes, and I think that comes with someone who cares more about lynching scum than just appearing townie.

Shoshin · Post Post #1467 (isolation #92) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:36 am

It's excellent analysis from ED.

Shoshin · Post Post #1468 (isolation #93) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 6:59 am

In post 1393, nomnomnom wrote:Like none of these posts are town. The tone just screams desperate scum to me. She knew coming in what kind of entrance she would use then use arcane moonlogic to push other slots but this instantly reads as prepared and crafted, not genuine.

And I know why it feels that way: it's because it's normally a free out of jail card normally but she had the audacity of using it on a slot with literally 8 posts throughout 50 pages, and that will just not work.

It's not genuine, and the subsequent posts are self-centered. This just needs to die right now. This is our day 1 lynch.

1. I was once given a choice by the worst of who to replace in this game: viewtopic.php?f=84&t=77903. I chose to replace the lurker slot over the non-lurker because I was more confident the lurker was town. (Both were town but I was more confident on the lurker). Just because someone has posted 8 times doesn't mean they can't be read. In the right circumstances, you just need 1 post to read a player.

2. Talking about myself isn't scummy. I do this in all my games as town. This is not a reason to suspect me. I'm not even sure why you would think talking about oneself is scummy in the first place. I use myself as a reference in a similar way to how you were using Skitter, and I'm sure others do this as well (e.g. RC, etc.).

3. I pointed you to undeniable evidence that I strongly prefer town & avoid playing scum when possible. Why the hell would you take that evidence to mean I'm lying about townreading ED?

4. What makes you say my tone is desperate? Point me to specific examples of this "desperation."

Shoshin · Post Post #1470 (isolation #94) » Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:16 am

In post 1447, teacher wrote:
In post 1439, Shoshin wrote:3. Who are you town reading on the wagon, and why are you assuming these players are automatically correct about ED's alignment?
DP, urap, cinnamon, Flubber. Most of the wagon.

When did you start townreading Flubb & why?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:12 am

I'm trying to avoid a mislynch on myself, Nom. Your feeling that I'm scum because of that is wrong.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:14 am

I don't feel like you're trying to sort me in good faith, Nom.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:18 am

I'm playing far beyond anything I do as scum & you're calling me scum because of some vague feeling about my tone while ignoring all the towny stuff I'm doing. Yes, I don't feel like you're sorting me in good faith.

Feelings aren't everything in mafia.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:20 am

You're not trying to sort me. This is disappointing.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:22 am

Salad, talk to me about the game. What're your reads?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:23 am

Skitter/Pika need to work on preventing my lynch. It should be fairly obvious to them that lynching me today is a bad idea.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:24 am

Who else do you scumread, Nom? Who are my partners?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:25 am

Buj, where are you? You also need to work to prevent my lynch.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:25 am

I'm just trying to figure the game out before I die.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:27 am

Please unvote, Salad. Give me a chance to solve this. You can put me at L-1 later. There's no rush on this. I've been lolhammered before, please don't let that happen this game.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:29 am

Thank you. Can you please answer my questions to you? What're your reads?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:35 am

Why are you town on Skitter?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:38 am

In post 1494, Saladman27 wrote:My views haven’t really changed my reads since 1095 other than you’re scumlean. You really do remind me of Crunch, a scum who tried to be TRed by being aggresive to other people. You are like him but less violent...

Why aren't you taking into account the numerous town tells I've pointed to?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:38 am

In post 1496, Saladman27 wrote:I’m extremely bad at mafia so I sorted her by her neat reads...

Do you want to improve at mafia?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:44 am

I've been lolhammered before. It happens more often than people realize.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:45 am

Please unvote me.

Please stop being bad at mafia.

Please improve.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:45 am

I'm a Cop.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:46 am

Please unvote.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:47 am

This is ridiculous.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:47 am

What the fuck kind of game did I get myself in?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:48 am

Salad, I claimed a PR. Please unvote. This is basic mafia 101.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:50 am

ED was obviously laying low because he was a PR.

Please unvote.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:50 am

I'm talking about his behavior.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:51 am

I can't believe this is fucking happening.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:52 am

@Town -- do not follow any of my reads when I die. I usually would say the opposite but I haven't had time to solve this.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:52 am

Thank fucking god.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:53 am

Yes, exactly.

I don't get why Nom/Salad were rushing my lynch through.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:55 am

You think I'm scum too, Cinn? Fuck this game.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:56 am

Why are you scumreading me, Cinn?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:56 am

This game is actually hopeless.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 10:59 am

Nom's confidence that I'm scum is maybe the scummiest thing I've seen all game. I don't think town ever becomes that confident I'm scum.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:00 am

In post 1536, Cinnamon wrote:You were appealing to emotion, and I really don't believe the 'ED was obvtown' statement

To be clear, whatever emotions I'm expressing are genuine. This isn't scummy, it's towny if anything.

I gave you evidence that I wouldn't replace a slot that I didn't townread. This evidence was from outside this game, so you know it's reliable. Why are you ignoring that?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:01 am

Scum are going to kill me tonight, so there's not much point in lynching me either way.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:02 am

In post 1541, nomnomnom wrote:
In post 1538, Shoshin wrote:Nom's confidence that I'm scum is maybe the scummiest thing I've seen all game. I don't think town ever becomes that confident I'm scum.
I've seen what you're doing a thousand times before.

You're almost playing according to this idea of a self-centered scum player that I have, actually.

EVERYTHING you have done is pushing towards a scum agenda, and I knew something was up with the tone you were using since your very first spots. I feel those things.

Confidence is NAI, by the way, for all that's worth

Confidence is one of the most reliable tells. When confidence doesn't square with the game, it's scummy. When it squares, it's towny.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:10 am

In post 1543, Cinnamon wrote:While that's a valid point, I didn't get the same read from ED and I'd rather believe my own reads than yours here as I'm not familiar with you as a player. I just think you were wrong on ED.

I think the problem is nobody in this game trusts my reads. I'll try to remedy that. This my town record from this year:

Spoiler:

Contrary to what others have claimed, my reads are significantly above average & trustworthy. It would be very stupid to lynch me on D1 before I've had a chance to get going. It's also stupid not to trust my townread on ED when I'm rarely wrong on townreads. It's also stupid to lynch a claimed cop.

The claim also explains why ED was laying low. What did you find scummy about ED?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:15 am

Nom, please stop talking to me. You're cluttering the game at this point with stuff that isn't helpful.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:15 am

I have a lot of posts but I haven't had much opportunity to interact & solve alignments.

Teacher, I still want answers to my questions from earlier.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:19 am

In post 1558, Cinnamon wrote:I never said ED was scummy, but that they were merely not townie. I really can't see anybody who has only posted 7 times as very townie.

To be clear, your inability to read a small quantity of posts doesn't mean others can't.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:22 am

In post 1561, Cinnamon wrote:Shoshin can you explain to me your read on Nero?

I'm unsure on him.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:23 am

In post 1563, Cinnamon wrote:
In post 1560, Shoshin wrote:
In post 1558, Cinnamon wrote:I never said ED was scummy, but that they were merely not townie. I really can't see anybody who has only posted 7 times as very townie.
To be clear, your inability to read a small quantity of posts doesn't mean others can't.
To me, what this says is that they did not engage in any real time interactions and could have plenty of time to formulate their thoughts as mafia. I think any semi-competent mafia player could produce 7 posts that look somewhat townie in a week. I think you underestimate the scum range of somebody lurking on that scale.

Is it possible that someone could fake what ED was doing? Yes. It is likely? No. Again, I let my record at scumhunting speak for itself.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:24 am

In post 1565, u r a person 2 wrote:you were jungle medicine? That actually makes a lot of sense in retrospect lol
I wish I had known that during the game. I probably would have approached you differently

so you're just a straight cop with no modifiers? I know it's a normal role, but I thought it was generally considered a bad role and thus not likely to be in normals

Eh, there's a modifier but I'd rather not talk about it.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:35 am

I've been quick hammered too much in the recent past to risk it. I've quick hammered scum myself & I don't believe it's a bad strategy if you have the correct level of confidence. The problem is when you're in a game with bad players or players who don't have the correct level of confidence about their reads.

I asked them to unvote when at L-1. Nom manipulated Salad into voting me back to L-1 after he unvoted. That's the point where I got scared.

For comparison, look at Open 756. I was cop put at L-1 and didn't claim. I asked the players who were around to unvote while I had a chance to talk stuff out. Another player at the same time declared intent to hammer. This was a different situation in that everyone in the game had spoken up about the situation, the players who weren't voting me had clearly called me town, the others had made their views known. So I risked not claiming.

This game, it's very unclear what a lot of players think about my alignment. I couldn't risk it.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:38 am

The way I was reading the situation, U2/Nom/Salad/Flubb/Teacher were unlikely to unvote me. Cinn hadn't weighed in yet so that was a risk. Pika/Skitter/Buj weren't doing anything to save me. Dunn/Nero/Vork are wildcards that might hammer, especially if one of them is scum. This is why I claimed when I did.

If I were scum, I never claim cop here, especially not with an open miller claim.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:45 am

In post 1576, u r a person 2 wrote:shoshin, if I'm town and you're town, who do you think the scum team is?

I'm trying to figure this out.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:50 am

I'm going to reiterate why you should townread me:

1. You know for a fact that I townread ED enough to replace the slot, & you know that my reads are trustworthy enough to sheep on this. I was trying to mitigate the risk of signing up for a new game & getting a scum slot, so I was pretty confident on this. More than 75%. Read my post analyzing ED for more on this.

2. I've been far more active & engaged than I ever would have as scum. I've read the whole game carefully (50 pages of stuff I wouldn't have read as scum). I'm trying to interact with players to get a sense of their alignment. This just isn't what it looks like when I'm scum. Is it possible for scum to be this active? Yes. Is it likely? No. Read me based on probability please.

3. There's been no resistance to my lynch. If I were scum, you can bet that there'd be some resistance. At least some. There's nothing. Scum want me lynched, as they usually do. It's unclear exactly how they're playing this out (sitting in the wings or on the wagon) but there's no doubt that scum weren't happy about me replacing a lurker slot.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:52 am

In post 1582, Cinnamon wrote:I don't like Shoshin's 'you're bad' argument but that's mostly personal I don't think that's more likely to come from scum than town. I think we need to start looking at other things right now.

I didn't make a "you're bad" argument? I've made an "I'm good" argument but that's about something else.

In terms of reads, anyone who scumreads me is objectively wrong. I know this, so I know that scumreading me is "bad." I understand that you don't know this, but that doesn't make me wrong or make claims of this nature "personal." It's just a fact.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:53 am

In post 1584, Saladman27 wrote:Also, sho, what do you mean no resistance?

If I were scum, I'd have partners to defend me. I'd have partners to help build a counter wagon. I'd have support. There's none of that in this game.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:53 am

In post 1587, nomnomnom wrote:
In post 1569, Shoshin wrote:The problem is when you're in a game with bad players or players who don't have the correct level of confidence about their reads.

Salad called himself bad. That wasn't anything personal.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:56 am

In post 1590, Saladman27 wrote:Bussing is a thing...

Bussing isn't just something scum do. It's something that's calculated. It's done with purpose in specific situations.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:00 pm

In post 1593, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 1583, Shoshin wrote:2. I've been far more active & engaged than I ever would have as scum. I've read the whole game carefully (50 pages of stuff I wouldn't have read as scum). I'm trying to interact with players to get a sense of their alignment. This just isn't what it looks like when I'm scum. Is it possible for scum to be this active? Yes. Is it likely? No. Read me based on probability please.
this stuff keeps bugging me. This isn't at all how you read to me in bop, and it isn't how you read to me in our early interactions in that newbie and I don't really think you meant to replace out of that newbie. Like, I think you've got to admit that effort!scum is within your range

And since when does shoshin get scared? cop role or not. This doesn't even seem like an alignment thing, I just wouldn't expect it from you generally

I was scum in BoP. I was scum in the Newbie. I'm not here. There's a large difference between my play here and BoP/Newbie. Do you deny that?

I'm capable of anything as scum. That's not the issue. I'm talking about probability. I have a 0% win rate as scum. I tend to lurk in most of the games. BoP is an exception because I really wanted to beat RC. And even then, I wasn't anything close to this level of engagement.

It's not a matter of being scared. It's a matter of judgment. If it looks like I'm going to get mislynched, I'm going to do whatever necessary to prevent that. I think mislynching is the worst thing that can happen to a town, and it's especially bad when they kill off one of the best players before the player even has a chance to put forth a solve.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:00 pm

In post 1595, Nero Cain wrote:in my limited exp. with Shosin she's a lurksack as town so the hyperactivity means this is prob scum.

VOTE: shoshin

This is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. Why are you ignoring the specific evidence that I hate playing scum & lurk even more as scum than town?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:01 pm

In post 1595, Nero Cain wrote:in my limited exp. with Shosin she's a lurksack as town so the hyperactivity means this is prob scum.

VOTE: shoshin

This is a good example of why I claimed, U2. I read the gamestate correctly.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:03 pm

In post 1602, Saladman27 wrote:Ok, sure, but what if your partner is one of the slots that haven’t posted in the thread since you replaced in? And keep in mind, most of the votes was from before you replaced in.

Here's some advice to improve: anytime you find yourself using the words "what if" and "could," question whether that possibility is actually probable. You find the scum by looking at what's probable. Anything is possible, and it's not helpful to focus on that type of stuff. Spinning narratives out of possibilities is how scum mislynch the townies.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:03 pm

In post 1602, Saladman27 wrote:Ok, sure, but what if your partner is one of the slots that haven’t posted in the thread since you replaced in? And keep in mind, most of the votes was from before you replaced in.

It's untrue that most votes were before I replaced in. Yours, Nom's, Flubb's, Nero's, are from after. That's more than half.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:07 pm

I think Nero's probably scum. He's not trying to sort me in good faith. I highly doubt he believes what he's saying about me without at least reading my posts to see if they're towny/scummy.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:09 pm

I thought I was towning it up, U2.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:09 pm

I have 150+ posts in less than 24 hours. If this town can't see that I'm town, this game is lost.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:14 pm

U2, please unvote me.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:16 pm

Cinn's town. The rest of this game is a mess that needs to be sorted out.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:16 pm

Nom's maybe town. It depends on a couple things.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:17 pm

Nom's far beyond what I saw from them as scum.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:17 pm

In post 1623, Saladman27 wrote:Yeah it is alot but it could be just active lurking...

I'm unable to sort this slot. I can't tell anymore if it's an act or genuine.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:18 pm

Dunn/Pika are likely town.

Buj concerns me because he posted elsewhere on site as I was getting run up to L-1 but didn't say anything here.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:21 pm

Teacher's read on Flubb has me concerned. He was scumreading Flubb until I asked him why he scumread me. Then he suddenly had Flubb as town. He hasn't explained that change & it seems like a combination of scum forgetfulness & opportunism (i.e. he never was trying to sort Flubb so he forgot what he said about him, and he gave the townread on his slot because it helped him justify a scumread on me).

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:21 pm

Are you kidding me, U2?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:25 pm

You shouldn't lynch me today. Give me a shot to find the scum. Lynch me tomorrow if my reads are wrong. Apply BoP.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:25 pm

In post 1636, Cinnamon wrote:I think in the event that Shoshin is town here there's definitely scum on the wagon

This is what I've been saying... can you help me sort it out?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:26 pm

In post 1640, Nero Cain wrote:no no no, I'm saying she was way way way less active. So the hyperactivity seems really scummy to me.

This is based on a sample size of one town game and zero scum games. I lurk even more as scum than town. This is what you're ignoring. Why are you ignoring this?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:31 pm

I'm thinking we might want to pivot a lynch onto Nero. He's ignoring the fact that I lurk MORE as scum, not the other way around.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:32 pm

In post 1650, Nero Cain wrote:
In post 1642, Shoshin wrote:This is what you're ignoring. Why are you ignoring this?
its not ignoring if this is not the experience I'm citing.

You're citing one game. One game. You didn't look at any scum games. Why?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:34 pm

In post 1651, u r a person 2 wrote:@shoshin so you said you efforted bop because you really wanted to beat rc

what's giving you the motivation to effort!town here? and even if you don't want to answer that, why shouldn't I just take it as a given that you're motivated for this game, and also that you would be motivated for those reasons regardless of alignment?

Look at what happened in other town games when I've come under pressure. I effort as much as here. Then compare to what happens when I come under pressure as scum. I lurk until I'm lynched.

I'm motivated because I'm town. I'm active/engaged at this moment because I need to be to avoid getting mislynched. If things were calmer, I'd be able to take more time rereading posts instead of trying to defend myself.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:34 pm

In post 1657, Detective Pikachu wrote:
In post 1624, Shoshin wrote:Nom's far beyond what I saw from them as scum.
yeah but didn't she have a post restriction or something in undertale, like I'm not sure that's fully indicative of her actual scumrange

The post restriction didn't stop her from posting thoughts about the game.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:37 pm

In post 1655, Saladman27 wrote:@sho I’m not into metareading player’s other games but how can we know that you lurk more as scum?

I have four scum games on this site.

Scientific Mafia - lurked on D1, was lynched.

BoP - didn't lurk because I wanted to beat RC.

Undertale - active at the very start of the game when it was easy to shit post, started lurking towards end of D1, eventually got lynched.

Newbie - lurked until I was replaced.

If you compare that to my town games, it's clear very quickly that I lurk a lot more as scum than town. It doesn't take much research to learn this. If you're unwilling to check games, rely on what others tell you based on their research.

Nero has read exactly one of my games. He's untrustworthy. Skitter has read more of them. She's trustworthy. Pika seems to be very aware of my games. He's trustworthy. These are the players you trust on this front.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:38 pm

In post 1663, u r a person 2 wrote:@shoshin I feel like you're town reading me now. Why the change?

I can't townread you until you unvote me.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:41 pm

In post 1658, Cinnamon wrote:
In post 1641, Shoshin wrote:
In post 1636, Cinnamon wrote:I think in the event that Shoshin is town here there's definitely scum on the wagon
This is what I've been saying... can you help me sort it out?
I actually don't townread a single person on the wagon. As you can tell by my vote, I saw Flubber's play earlier in the game as scummy. While the aforementioned 851 did resolve in 863 I think their interactions in these posts weren't great. I also think Salad's play here is weird, not necessarily scummy but at most mislead town. I explained a scum read on Nero earlier in the game. Urap I'm pretty null on, I just haven't gotten a good read on them yet. I had a town read earlier on nom but their confidence here has me questioning it. However, they are the least scummy person on the wagon for me.

I agree about Flubb's interactions around 851, as I mentioned. His vote on me was awful, as well. He's likely scum from my perspective.

Salad's playing bad. The question is whether it's an act or genuine town badness. I'm unsure on this. I don't scumread but I can't townread either.

Nero's playing scummy, agreed.

U2's a better player than what he's showing here. He'd also want me gone as scum, so the fact he continues voting me after the cop claim has me concerned. Scum love to strongarm lynches on cops.

I think Nom's probably town. I hate to say it but unfortunately it is what it is.

We seem to mostly be on the same page. I'm happy to build a wagon on one of Flubb/Nero with you, if that sounds right to you?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:42 pm

Pika, are you scumreading my behavior? I don't understand this.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:45 pm

In post 1670, u r a person 2 wrote:I started feeling the change in tone towards me and the willingness to answer my questions before I unvoted you for a sec there

so was I just wrong in sensing that?

What you noticed is correct. I'm answering your questions because this is a point in the game where that's necessary. I expect town in your shoes to reevalute their read on me as a result. Not doing so is concerning.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:46 pm

Lynching me on D1 is always a bad idea, regardless the claim.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:48 pm

In post 1682, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 1678, Shoshin wrote:What you noticed is correct. I'm answering your questions because this is a point in the game where that's necessary. I expect town in your shoes to reevalute their read on me as a result. Not doing so is concerning.
well im not talking to you to improve my typing lol

Yet you're still voting me. Where are you reevaluating? You seem to be talking to me with an agenda: prove Shoshin is scum. Where's the genuine attempts to sort me based on probability & facts?

It's exceptionally improbable that my play in this game comes from scum me. I said I'm capable of it but I'm not even sure about that.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:49 pm

Let's go with Nero, Cinn.

VOTE: Nero

The way he's pushing my lynch doesn't seem like something he'd do as town.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:52 pm

@Nero

You're ignoring the vast majority of evidence to push an entirely made-up story that I lurk more as town than scum. Would you do this as town?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:55 pm

In post 1694, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 1686, Shoshin wrote:Yet you're still voting me. Where are you reevaluating? You seem to be talking to me with an agenda: prove Shoshin is scum. Where's the genuine attempts to sort me based on probability & facts?

It's exceptionally improbable that my play in this game comes from scum me. I said I'm capable of it but I'm not even sure about that.
I mean, even if i were scum, there would still be town who think you're scum so I don't really think this whole "whoever town reads me is town" stuff is a great way to keep your 99% rate

but the day is not going to end while we chat and you seem to answer my questions while you've got a wagon on you which is a nice change of pace =P

The whole "whoever town reads me is town" thing isn't how I'm sorting the game, it's how I'm sorting you specifically. We've had an extensive interaction that I haven't had with others. I expect more from you than others because of this. I don't apply general principles to anyone. I treat each player on their own terms, and in your case, I expect a change in your read.

You didn't answer my questions, by the way. Why are you dodging them? No answer for them, or intentionally withholding information from me for some pro-town purpose?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:56 pm

In post 1698, Detective Pikachu wrote:VOTE: nomnom

I'm just trying this on for size, let me know if it makes my butt look big

No, not today please. I'd like you to bracket Nom for today. Please join me on Nero or join Cinn on Flubb. We need to be working together if we're going to have any sort of meaningful counter wagon to myself.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 12:58 pm

In post 1708, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 1702, Shoshin wrote:You didn't answer my questions, by the way. Why are you dodging them? No answer for them, or intentionally withholding information from me for some pro-town purpose?
Uh I really didn't mean to dodge a question which one

It's in the post you responded to.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:00 pm

In post 1701, u r a person 2 wrote:@shoshin were you scum reading nero for his early push onto cinn, or did you have him as town for a time?

I'll just take you at your word because I don't want to go look but if you were town reading him, then why is him pushing you now so much worse than that?

I skimmed his iso earlier & saw what looked like aggressive posts & efforting. I associate that with town Nero, so I just put him in a town pile without much further thought.

When I went through the game more closely, starting on page 1, I ended up having him as scum. I thought his posting was awkward in context, and it felt like he's much less engaged/aggressive than normal for him as town.

His recent push on me is the last straw. Please review how he decides to push me. He's ignoring key pieces of evidence to get me lynched.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:02 pm

In post 1719, Saladman27 wrote:Sho, why are you still adamant that showing us you lurked more as scum in earlier games is ai despite the fact you
could
have changed your scum meta?

Probability.

Every time you use the word "could," you're talking about possibility.

I'm talking about probability.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:05 pm

In post 1727, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 1686, Shoshin wrote:Yet you're still voting me. Where are you reevaluating? You seem to be talking to me with an agenda: prove Shoshin is scum. Where's the genuine attempts to sort me based on probability & facts?
oh i kind of thought these were rhetorical

Like literally this exercise that we're going through right now is me reevaluating. I'd rather you be town, if we're being real. and as an aside, scum!me does not try to lynch town!you by engaging with you lol. That is not a winning strategy, do you think?

Scum you engaged with me a lot as JM. I think you tend to engage a lot as either alignment. It's NAI. As scum, the biggest thing for me is that you didn't reevaluate at all. I didn't see movement in your reads after I called you out on stuff. I'm also not seeing movement here. I'm not seeing you take the clear evidence that this is likely town & applying that to the game. You're continuing to vote me. Your claim to be reevaluating doesn't mean anything if you're not actually showing movement in the read.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:10 pm

There can be more than one cop, U2.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:14 pm

In post 1745, u r a person 2 wrote:
In post 1721, Shoshin wrote:His recent push on me is the last straw. Please review how he decides to push me. He's ignoring key pieces of evidence to get me lynched.
Yeah I see what you're saying there. I kinda sympathize with him not doing the meta work tho. back in a few min

He doesn't need to do meta work. He's straight-up making up a story about how lurk more as town than scum based on a sample size of one town game, zero scum games. It's absurd.

And he's intentionally ignoring the links I provided earlier showing that I strongly prefer playing town to scum. These links should prove that I'm more likely to be active as town than scum based solely on motivation behind the alignments.

This isn't something that town does when trying to sort someone who claimed cop.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:15 pm

In post 1746, teacher wrote:
In post 1741, Shoshin wrote:There can be more than one cop, U2.
In a 13p game?! This is about the scummiest thing youve said in this entire interchange.

I can point to numerous 13p normal games with multiple cops. I said I had a modifier. It's not a full-strength cop.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:16 pm

I guess I'll just claim this much. I'm an odd-night [redacted] cop.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:26 pm

Pika, I don't understand why you'd even consider lynching me today? What are you finding actually scummy about me?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:26 pm

In post 1764, skitter30 wrote:give me a few minutes to look at that, never looked at that game before

I lurked that game out.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:28 pm

In post 1763, Detective Pikachu wrote:But I'm struggling to come up with reasons to say "fuck no don't lynch sho rn."

Here's some simple reasons:

1. I claimed a PR.

2. Everything I'm doing is strongly town indicative for me.

3. My reads as town are very good & it's worth keeping me alive if I'm town because of that.

4. The harm of lynching town me is much greater than the harm of delaying my lynch.

I'm not scum, but even if I were, you could still lynch scum without lynching me. No matter how you look at this, lynching me today is the wrong move.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:30 pm

In post 1769, skitter30 wrote:i haven't gotten that far yet but it's like .... leagues different
she doesn't display anything close to the nuance of thought she's had here

This is what I keep saying.

I was the most townread player in that game, by the way. I know how to appear town as scum. But the idea that my town game looks anything like my scum game is wrong. It's very different.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:31 pm

In post 1771, teacher wrote:Shos, I know you softed, but did you role crumb at all? (also, Im still going back to your questions, but every fracking time I get one post in, its a page later and I have to click through 4 rounds of PEDITS)

I never crumb. I have PR meta, including cop and other investigative roles, that you can check this on.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:35 pm

In post 1772, Detective Pikachu wrote:
In post 1765, Shoshin wrote:Pika, I don't understand why you'd even consider lynching me today? What are you finding actually scummy about me?
I mean I'm probably not voting you this daycycle, it's more a question of whether I can actually defend you. I'm like: can I argue Shoshin is town conclusively?

Like it would be a lot easier if you hadn't polluted the discussion with the massive "I don't play scum" argument when I feel like your play in Undertale wasn't that bad? So I'm like, kinda annoyed at you for trying to make that argument even though I'm not sure it's actually a scummy argument

I also don't want to just say "let's give every pr claim a day for the sake of giving every pr claim a day" cause then we just get every scum fakeclaiming pr and that gets kinda old too

It's not a scummy argument, it's a towny one. To be sure, the "I don't play scum" argument didn't play out how I was hoping. It was a bad play in this group of players. I won't make the same mistake again. But the actual point I was making still holds up.

You're the person who should be wanting me to live the entire game, not just another day. The PR stuff shouldn't be relevant to you. It's relevant to others, but you have enough sense to read me on behavior. Do that.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:36 pm

Pika, what's your take on Nero? You seem to be letting him off easy here.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:36 pm

Skitter, your take on Nero?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:39 pm

In post 1788, Nero Cain wrote:Sho, who is scum if me, you and nom are all town?

I don't know at this time. I'm still waiting on a lot of players to weigh in.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:39 pm

In post 1787, teacher wrote:I disagree. I think if you are nervous enough to soft, you should crumb to give your claim believability if/when it is needed. Like, Im not going there today, but I do think it would be the logical play. It would certainly answer Nom;s "changing claim" attack, which is why I asked it.

We disagree on how to play the game. This isn't AI.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:51 pm

Response to Vork:

Spoiler:

In post 1795, Vorkuta wrote: STUFF THAT LOOKS BAD TO ME
-Shoshin's defense is gross and loaded with a ton of personal appeals which isn't something I expect from her. Then again I've never seen a wagon on her (only scum NK's ) so I have yet to decide whether this is flailing scum or genuinely how town shoshin responds

Personal appeals are not scummy. Who told you they were? This is how I play when under this level of pressure, nothing scummy.

-The OMGUS, the "I can't town read you until you unvote me", the "this game is doomed, town is bad" is just.....

OMGUS isn't scummy. It's also not what I was doing. There's a lot of context there that you're missing, as I'm weighing whether these specific players should scumread me based on the information they have available. This is part of how I scumhunt. My scumread on Morality in Mini 2058 is an example of this. You've seen it before. If you're confused on the context of a specific read in this game, ask about it please.

-70% of shoshin's defense is her sitting on prior laurels

It's more like 30% of the defense. My point is that my slot is town because I strongly townread it before replacing in. You can trust my reads. Remember when I defended against your lynch as Suka in Autumn's Farewell? You were mislynched but I was the only player in the game strongly townreading you. You should know to trust me on this. You also saw me strongly defend Chemist in that recent multiball game. I sometimes have strong townreads on players that others don't, and I'm right about these reads. This is not reason to suspect my slot, it's reason to trust me.

-I hate the modifier game that shoshin is playing. I've done it as scum. I grumble at this.

I can't control what role I got. In Autumn's Farewell, a normal game, I was also a PR. Remember? I redacted part of my role as well, because it had multiple parts.

-I might just lolvote just to prove nom completely wrong tbh

Do not do this.

-So one of my mentors told me to look for the fact scum on D2/D1 tend to focus on hard defending themselves, while town still have some "scumhunting fight" left in them and at least try to get reads down, and that worked really well in JAZZ imho.

Who told you this? They're not entirely correct. Town will hard defend themselves when under pressure like this, at least good town will. Bad town will let themselves get lynched. That said, notice that even as I'm defending myself I'm still trying to sort players, I'm asking questions and pushing back on things to try sorting. I keep asking for more time to sort even if I'm going to die. Notice these things.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 1:53 pm

Skitter, I'd like update on your Nero read when you're fully caught up.

I also want Pika's take on Nero. It's fine if you suspect Nom but that doesn't mean he's the only scum in the game. Is Nero scum or town?

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:32 pm

I guess Nom thinks there's only one scum in the game & it's me.

Shoshin · Tue Jun 18, 2019 2:34 pm

Skitter, talk to me about Teacher. Do you prefer lynching him over Nero?