Open 761: Grey Flag Nightless - [It's over!]

[RadiantCowbells]

I was seriously dreading rolling scum this game and the moment I opened .y role pm and saw that I was town was one of the happiest of my life

[RadiantCowbells]

datisi is bullying me

[RadiantCowbells]

oh look who rolled scum again VOTE: RC

hi RC

Page 1 and already two people being friendly to RC.

What's your point

[RadiantCowbells]

their point is that I'm super cute and he's jealous of the attention that I'm getting

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't wanna

[RadiantCowbells]

oh look who rolled scum again VOTE: RC

R u town datisi please answer honesy

[RadiantCowbells]

warning you in advance

voting me causes reactions that you won't like

and it's objectively stupid to try to lynch scum me in white flag

plus I'm town

[RadiantCowbells]

oooo

[RadiantCowbells]

hmm

Shoshin pay attention to me as well, let's make buj ultra jealous

[RadiantCowbells]

btw I'm town I swear. Not sure if anyone TRs that.

[RadiantCowbells]

flirting is often the path to being sheeped

[RadiantCowbells]

See watch this

Ahem

Hey there Datisi

Is it hot in here, or is it just you? Or maybe the European heat wave, but.

Are you going to sheep me now?

[RadiantCowbells]

Well you're not voting me now so that's an improvement

[RadiantCowbells]

Can you fill out the following questionaire

1) on a scale of 1-5 how likely are you to sheep my vote
2) on a scale of 1-5 how irritated are you by me

[RadiantCowbells]

(that was a joke that was maybe over the line sorry if it was.)

[RadiantCowbells]

you may cap the scale wherever you want

[RadiantCowbells]

No I just wanna win the game tbh

[RadiantCowbells]

wtf

any flirting I do in a mafia game is strictly playing my win condition

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't see why town ought to be less likely to strategically earn townreads.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like...

If scum go out of their way to get townread and town don't, the people getting townread will end up all being scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

And is it really qualitatively different to convince someone to hammer the other player in lylo by casing them versus making them like and not want to vote me?

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh I mean.
I usually know who scum is, even if I rarely make it to lylo

I'm more referring to how I push those reads though

[RadiantCowbells]

Arguing that someone is likely scum only goes so far when you're the scum play Boogeyman and etc etc

[RadiantCowbells]

any reads so far shoshin?

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't like that answer.

I have a reasonably strong scumread on someone who has already posted that is not you.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like... this is more conventionally scummy than you scummy but why do you need to skim a 3 page game?

[RadiantCowbells]

I realize that I just said that in our last game where I was scum, but I'm sorry if you rolled scum this game.

And I already dislike your posting enough to think there's a reasonable chance that you have.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't feel like I should have to answer that.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't want to put the player on guard in a way that will hurt my ability to read them any more than simply stating I have a strong scumread already does.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think that closing off is objectively not a scumtell for me.

I'm also more interested in sorting you than how you sort me right now.

This worry is out of character with your confidence in scumhunting.

No, it's really not. You scum, Sho?

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't want to close off yet but I'm finding it really difficult to believe this play comes from town you, Shoshin.

[RadiantCowbells]

I would have expected you to already townread me if you were town and at the least not suggest the possibility of me being scum on Page 4.

And if you were going to suggest the possibility of me being scum on Page 4, I would expect it to be for better reasons than the ones you've presented.

[RadiantCowbells]

RC is the hardest scum to lynch in this lobby if he's scum seems like a pretty obvious starting ground as town. If I'm hard defending scum, that's one thing.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have no idea what you're saying.

I'm saying that you going after me makes more sense as scum than town, period.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't want to put the player on guard in a way that will hurt my ability to read them any more than simply stating I have a strong scumread already does.

This worry is out of character with your confidence in scumhunting.

also- my 'confidence in scumhunting' isn't in my ability to at a single discrete point snap solve the game and autowin and collect the women's and men's underwear thrown on stage.
it's a confidence in the process, and the process is often slow. sometimes i snap solve. sometimes i need time. not giving myself all the time that I can to have the best reads possible is not what you should expect.

sure, sometimes I have games like the recent newbie where I speedlynch The Worst because he's scum. but the next day I went and said we're playing to deadline.
if I have a solve I know it, but otherwise I make use of all the means that I have to sort people.

This is how I feel about you. You know for a fact that my alignment will be obvious by D2 if not before. Yet from the very start you've been casting shade on me. Why?

And again, I'm not going after you. I'm trying to talk about your reads but you instead want to talk about how I'm scum when I'm not.

Yeah okay she's just claiming scum.

VOTE: Shoshin

[RadiantCowbells]

Not my fault that you rolled scum, sorry.

[RadiantCowbells]

Eh.

I really wanted to see the reaction here but if she's town I think she'll be pissed at my out of game for it and I don't know if that's worth it to me.

UNVOTE:

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't agree that your alignment will be obvious by D2 necessarily and I think that there is a very high chance that I'm not alive to determine that on D2.
The best that I can do is leave a lynch order for everyone, most likely.

The vote on you was a reaction test and my push on you was played up but I really do want to figure out your alignment, and I'm not content just sitting and waiting til D2 for it.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't actually have a read on you, scum or otherwise. I do intend to fix that and I won't be content with you saying to wait to D2.

[RadiantCowbells]

That's an entirely empty threat and not conducive to positive relations here.

[RadiantCowbells]

I am still unwilling to out it, even if the consequence is us not having something to talk about.

[RadiantCowbells]

You don't have to townspew literally today but I'm not letting you go to D2 without a confident townread on you
In exchange, if we get to a point where I know you're town and the reverse isn't true, you can leash my vote and [if i'm scum] force me to double bus to a lose.

[RadiantCowbells]

that's not a useful vote and i'd prefer no one even place votes, thanks.

[RadiantCowbells]

votes don't do anything if no one is getting lynched, and we don't want to be lynching people for a very long time from here.

[RadiantCowbells]

and i've had enough stupid quickhammers to last a lifetime.

[RadiantCowbells]

words are threatening enough on their own.

[RadiantCowbells]

Okay, sure.

I vaguely townlean Bitmap right now. How about you?

[RadiantCowbells]

Yes.

I also was in the mini normal where I powerlynched TW scum on D1 and had what was essentially autowin with the quality of the surviving players but then CJ quickhammered Volxen before they could obvtown.

We still won, but.

[RadiantCowbells]

either null or [main scumread]

Sorry. I don't want it to be easy to PoE who my scumread is. Maybe this isn't a good time.

[RadiantCowbells]

Shoshin if ur still voting me after your next post I will be very cross with you

[RadiantCowbells]

lol

[RadiantCowbells]

let's just not call me wolf pls

[RadiantCowbells]

That's what we want you to think

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not your buddy guy

[RadiantCowbells]

Bitmap you don't want to do that if you're town.

[RadiantCowbells]

Shoshin if you keep people from voting me or pushing on me I'll give you a lot more space.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not at threat of being lynched. No matter what.

I am at threat of being pushed and voted in a way that will prevent me from playing to my full extent.

[RadiantCowbells]

I held back for that reason even though I was fairly sure I would be able to lock[town/scum] you based on your reaction.

[RadiantCowbells]

If it helps

at no point in this game have you been more likely scum than town.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm null on him.

My scumread is Datisi btw.

[RadiantCowbells]

I still feel reasonably okay about Bitmap

Abu, not so much.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's the alignment I'm fairly certain.

[RadiantCowbells]

Do you think it wouldn't be?

[RadiantCowbells]

My read there obviously isn't 100%, but I super super strongly am gut pinged by her entrance.

[RadiantCowbells]

I do think you're town, by the way.

[RadiantCowbells]

Keep in mind that me and Datisi are friends.

[RadiantCowbells]

The point of voting people to apply pressure is generally to produce more content from them.
Its effects on me will be somewhere between me shutting down, refusing to play, or OMGUS tunneling the people who voted me.

And I will self-motivate.

[RadiantCowbells]

yourself.

[RadiantCowbells]

btw I outright scumread Bujaber, I think.

[RadiantCowbells]

oh look who rolled scum again VOTE: RC

hi RC

Page 1 and already two people being friendly to RC.

like

this is such a fucking weird post

and i think it's scummy

and it feels like the kind of post where 1/2 of the people referenced is his buddy... and i already scumread datisi... so

[RadiantCowbells]

i don't need to explain it: you know perfectly well how I feel about being shitwagoned.

[RadiantCowbells]

i hear that i'm her favorite player

[RadiantCowbells]

I think scum would try to mislynch me.

Shouldn't bother you that I'm unwilling to take 'being nice to RC' from people who I'd expect to be nice to me as a scumtell

[RadiantCowbells]

I never said scum would try to be nice to me.

You did.

[RadiantCowbells]

Idk if I buy your softball 'it bothers me that you missed that point' logic as ever coming from town but okay for now

[RadiantCowbells]

By the time I vote the person I vote will be getting lynched within 12 hours or so

[RadiantCowbells]

Wdym stretching it

[RadiantCowbells]

Hi Datisi were you planning on posting here?

[RadiantCowbells]

Datisi you feel entirely devoid of the level of personality that made you obvious town last game.

[RadiantCowbells]

I think RC/Ircher?/Bitmap?/Shoshin town

Datisi/Buj scum

Undetermined on the last 3 but leaning abu for last scum

[RadiantCowbells]

Don't feel like coming at you I have my own shit to deal with

Kinds but even the posts that are there feel wrong.

[RadiantCowbells]

You think it's scummy

Or you don't like it?

[RadiantCowbells]

You lost 1446 for me, so.

[RadiantCowbells]

Really not understanding where Chemist comes from

[RadiantCowbells]

I meant the chemist scumread

That said I kinda grok it more now

[RadiantCowbells]

Shoshin you are still voting me

[RadiantCowbells]

Votes are dangerous and scary.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't want anyone to get quickhammered which is a risk of people being at L1.

[RadiantCowbells]

Shouldn't.

Even if I'm alive til lylo you're never getting every town to vote me so you're basically playing against wincondition even attempting it

[RadiantCowbells]

You don't have to like it. It's true.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like

8/8 times I've been lynched in the last 2 years outside of hydras I've been town

Using Bayesian logic if you're able to lynch me I'm town.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's only wifom if you don't believe that I would actually not be lynchable if I were scum aligned.

[RadiantCowbells]

over the last 2 years? 100%.

[RadiantCowbells]

in 2016 and 2017 I lost a decent # of scum games though, and I lost team mafia though that doesn't really count.

[RadiantCowbells]

wdym

[RadiantCowbells]

i think ircher play is obvscum from a neutral perspective but has reasonable chance of being town coming from him.

i still do feel like the game is literally solved

datisi is scum pretty much no matter what

and buj is obvscum to me

[RadiantCowbells]

she's posting elsewhere on site. i'm fairly certain that this game would be her top priority if she was town. she also interacted with me in a way that feels pretty locked in scum

i'm just trying to sort other people before we lynch her and I die.

[RadiantCowbells]

Hey Shoshin, assuming that I die tonight, would you rather

1) I dictate the 3 remaining kills or
2) you get to dictate the first 2 but if you fail twice you get lynched in lylo

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm aware. No one else has put reads forward. I'm asking that question to sort Shoshin moreso than anything else.

[RadiantCowbells]

don't assume that I don't care about everyone's opinions, because I do. but I'm not going to prod every player in the lobby to ask them for them. if you have something you want heard you need to say it.

[RadiantCowbells]

I've seen chemist have equally awful isos as town as well.

I don't like it, but I certainly don't think it's more scum indicative than Datisi or Buj

[RadiantCowbells]

I metad you and Abu because you were the only two people I didn't have immediate meta knowledge of. Abu turned out not to have any meta, etc.

[RadiantCowbells]

Why aren't you scumreading Buj?

[RadiantCowbells]

Are you townreading me?

[RadiantCowbells]

It's okay. I'm not scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

I might be wrong on this but back in 2012-2014, scum players were usually really good.

Pfft

You quit just before my time

I started my scum career in 2015 by convincing town to lynch the cop inno so that I could scrape a win out of mechanical autoloss.

Good times

[RadiantCowbells]

:3

[RadiantCowbells]

Hey, it's a really heavy mantle to wear in ways that probably aren't all that obvious to a third party observer.

I should at least get the perks with the cons.

[RadiantCowbells]

See, you ignore questions so much RC yet nobody gives you flak for it. Yet everyone gets so upset at me for doing it. I don't get it.

I have already given a reason for scumreading Buj though.

I also explained why I think it works with Datisi as well.

You just didn't read

[RadiantCowbells]

I also holistically scumread everything else they've done, at a low enough level that I wouldn't vote them if it weren't for that, but yea.

[RadiantCowbells]

datisi's pretty much lockscum at this point. just trying to find more townreads so I can give more useful info to town after d1 than just to lynch buj tomorrow

[RadiantCowbells]

I dunno Shoshin. Do you really think that Buj makes the post he does regarding jealousy of my female attention as town? I really can't see it.
I think it makes a decent amount of sense from the position of scum with Datisi. Not in terms of being a 'good post', but something I can see scum posting.

[RadiantCowbells]

is Buj's posting not completely god awful? I feel like it is. it's not just the female attention thing.

[RadiantCowbells]

everyone else has 0 posted but are not necessarily scummy

[RadiantCowbells]

like... i really can't imagine Datisi low efforts this one when I'm pushing on her the way I am.

Whereas her response (very rote giving out of reads in a way that feels scummy) absolutely is in line with my expectations of scum her

[RadiantCowbells]

It's really upsetting that I can't get reads on half the slots though.

[RadiantCowbells]

She's V/LA and still posting in other games. I can't specifically say a whole lot, but I don't think her play here is due to her V/LA.

[RadiantCowbells]

like do you not agree buj's iso is night and day from, say, fire on the mountain?

[RadiantCowbells]

/shrug

people wanted to replace out of the loss i guess

the only person whose replace out was caused by me was on d1

[RadiantCowbells]

Buj felt extremely sorty in that game. This game he just feels... blah. lackluster. I am tempted to joke about him needing female attention but I will refrain.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm associating sortiness with town and lack of sortiness with scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

I kinda feel like you're their buddy trying to talk me out of double right reads rn tbh

[RadiantCowbells]

like you're all 'hey i wanna solve this game with you' but what you're really doing is trying to systematically dismantle my scumreads

[RadiantCowbells]

Sorry if I did something to upset you but I still think you're scum in this game and my reasons for thinking so are public.

[RadiantCowbells]

Like I was aware you were joking.

I still don't feel like you make that joke as scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ya that

[RadiantCowbells]

Before you accuse it of being a scumslip I make that transposition constantly

[RadiantCowbells]

Before you accuse it of being a scumslip I make that transposition constantly

Then I scumslip 10* a day.

[RadiantCowbells]

Bitmap it's really hard for me to townread me when I feel like your interactions with me are agenda driven towards discrediting my reads and my standing in town.

[RadiantCowbells]

But like

Why would I want to push a wagon when most of the game isn't playing

[RadiantCowbells]

I prefer lobbies where everyone self motivates themselves to play because they want to win the game but ok

VOTE: DATISI

[RadiantCowbells]

What, you think I really thought you were serious?

[RadiantCowbells]

I wouldn't expect you to

[RadiantCowbells]

It was datisi.. though considering I forgot the slot I'm not so sure anymore.

I mean you called her town which was really undeserved
Then had this strange turnaround on her.

Etcetc

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean, I thought my version of the joke was funnier.

Didn't know that it would upset you.

[RadiantCowbells]

The post is inherently more likely to come from scum based on several years of empirical data of the kind of posts that town and scum make, especially especially if Datisi is scum. This is based on both the content, the format, the smiley, and his later justification of it.

[RadiantCowbells]

If Datisi is town, then yeah maybe scum Buj here.

This is the opposite of what I think

[RadiantCowbells]

Is he recklessly defending that teammate? He backed way off of the townread when I called him out on it and has been trying to backtrack and change my read on it since the getgo.

[RadiantCowbells]

[RadiantCowbells]

+1 everything in 412.

[RadiantCowbells]

me and Datisi are friends outside of mafia. still awkward as hell though.

[RadiantCowbells]

could be but he's absolutely one of the 3 remaining lynches.

[RadiantCowbells]

We only get three lynches this game?

Excluding the lynch on Datisi, I mean.

[RadiantCowbells]

Not if you're RC.

This really doesn't make sense.

I'm scumreading him for not trying to figure out people's alignments.

[RadiantCowbells]

L-2.

Don't bring her to L-1 yet.

[RadiantCowbells]

i'm so tired of being the obligatory nightkill.

[RadiantCowbells]

in another universe i'd push for keeping datisi alive as the designated 'second scum lynch' but that puts me at risk of being mislynched myself at some point and idk if, no matter how confident my read is, that's a safe play

[RadiantCowbells]

very interested to see someone who isn't like part of the 5 people who have actually had meaningful contributions to the thread give meaningful contributions to the thread

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm super cute tbh

[RadiantCowbells]

Chemist your play is terribly underwhelming even by your standards

[RadiantCowbells]

@chemist

you're lurky

your reads suck

your ircher scumread seems like a really easy thing to push as scum

etc

[RadiantCowbells]

:c

can we not play attack everyone's rc townreads

[RadiantCowbells]

people fairly regularly townread me outright.

[RadiantCowbells]

seems like bad play.

[RadiantCowbells]

if you're basically never going to win vs me when i'm scum, why also be extremely likely to lose when we're on the same team?

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't townread players with 100% scum wins as town ever.

I'm referring to this. Why not just treat me as town then?

[RadiantCowbells]

how do you define healthy? in terms of how it affects your winrate?

if your chances of winning vs scum me are going to be ~0 no matter what set of actions you undertake, shouldn't you just take the set of actions that gives you the highest win chance if I'm town, ie townreading me?

[RadiantCowbells]

shit he's onto me

[RadiantCowbells]

how do you define healthy? in terms of how it affects your winrate?

if your chances of winning vs scum me are going to be ~0 no matter what set of actions you undertake, shouldn't you just take the set of actions that gives you the highest win chance if I'm town, ie townreading me?

this? i dunno i think if it really meant a lot to you to read me and you were willing to put in a solid fraction of the time that I put in mastering my scum game learning to beat it, you could do it.
the question is if it's worth that time to you and no one has made the choice that that time is worth it to them.

[RadiantCowbells]

that's the first thing I said at the start of this game, btw.

[RadiantCowbells]

no

that means we win as long as we find 4 town.

[RadiantCowbells]

out of 5 players.

[RadiantCowbells]

We win as long as we find 4 town? Can you help me understand how this works out?

we win

if we can pick 5 players and have 4 of them be town

[RadiantCowbells]

i mean

i always lead the wagons

[RadiantCowbells]

like, we're lynching datisi today.

[RadiantCowbells]

I find it annoying that the people who are enticed by the idea of trying to bring me down and showering in glory
rather than trying to find an effective method of reading me
just decide that the correct play is to call me scum every game and push me in the hopes that eventually they'll get me lynched as scum if they try to lynch me every game

[RadiantCowbells]

We're not not following my lead either.

Datisi's scum.

Why are you encouraging otherwise?

[RadiantCowbells]

Hey Shoshin why are you pushing town to ignore me with the assistance of the person who was previously your top scumread?

[RadiantCowbells]

RC has a couple sheep in this game (e.g. Ircher) but we don't have to follow his lead.

[RadiantCowbells]

his latest posting is just as awful as his earlier posting.

[RadiantCowbells]

Not understanding your Abu scumread over like Buj

[RadiantCowbells]

He can be in my lynchpool I guess

As of right now I want to kill all of {datisi Abu chemist buj}

And spare RC Shoshin Bitmap Ircher

There's a 9th slot I have no read on huh

[RadiantCowbells]

Chemist makes exact sense as third member with Datisi/Buj

[RadiantCowbells]

His entire approach to the game

He came in with townreads on datisi and buj

He's still pushing that buj townread but has put himself open to switching the read on Datisi since she's functionally donezo at this point

He's put every single mislynchable slot below Buj and isn't committing to a read on either of us so he doesn't have to sheep us

Specifically brought up it being important to not listen to me, etc.

[RadiantCowbells]

Chemist1422.

[RadiantCowbells]

But would your reads be this bad?

[RadiantCowbells]

I would say ~70% of the time the game is outright over with Bujaber and Datisi lynches and you are the single person who has played this game in a manner most fitting for their teammate.
You've done everything that their teammate would need to be doing as scum to make sure that they don't both end up going down.
You're setting up alternative tomorrow lynches, you're avoiding taking the fall too hard for Datisi if it becomes inevitable, you're setting yourself up to hard defend Bujaber tomorrow, you're preempting the discrediting of my reads, etc.

[RadiantCowbells]

Ircher has felt like scum's designated mislynch all game.

[RadiantCowbells]

I really can't imagine Town!Datisi giving up because I scumread her.

If she thinks I'm scum, she would hit back swinging.
If she thinks I'm town, she would try to persuade me.

I think she's scum and just felt overwhelmed and didn't think there was much she could do.

[RadiantCowbells]

My major concern about Ircher is that scum definitely want to vig me after Datisi so giving me a townread feels like a natural move for scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

I very rarely lie as scum in a manner that could be disproven.

[RadiantCowbells]

Citation please.

[RadiantCowbells]

Can you cite specific instances please

[RadiantCowbells]

I would appreciate a specific link, if you don't mind.

Yes, that's what I'm asking for.

[RadiantCowbells]

Shoshin, did you consciously notice that I massively altered my normal posting style in this game?

[RadiantCowbells]

Oh. I was trying to signal to you. I don't remember what. I wasn't deliberately trying to lie for gain through dishonesty.

[RadiantCowbells]

I see. We can talk about it some other time then.

[RadiantCowbells]

Shoshin, did you consciously notice that I massively altered my normal posting style in this game?

still looking for a response to this.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm largely with you on town players needing to show it at this point. I do feel like I've caught at least 2 scum, but I'd like to know who the town are if I'm not right on both.

[RadiantCowbells]

I have done my best this game to talk on your wavelength because I wanted to see if it made us get along better.

You can be the judge of that.

[RadiantCowbells]

Obviously not.

[RadiantCowbells]

I'm not ready to die.

UNVOTE:

[RadiantCowbells]

You're not going to.

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't like chances

I was only not the kill in the duel game because town mislynched me D1 as towns do

[RadiantCowbells]

Regardless of my decisions I was still obvtown and still correct on my scumreads.

[RadiantCowbells]

My reads are more valuable.

[RadiantCowbells]

I mean... my reads are pretty objectively more valuable than PPs. Do you disagree?

[RadiantCowbells]

My reads are more valuable.

I was under the impression you weren't one of the people who took offense to the assertion that some townies are more equal than others.

[RadiantCowbells]

If you meant me vs you, I think far more important than the question of reads is the question of the relative value of being a comfortable townread versus being able to project my reads better.

[RadiantCowbells]

"parting gift"?