BTE: Boon Wars - Attack of the Colognes

[Dr Worm]

EVRYBIDY!!

[insomnia]

Votes speak for themselves.

[PenguinPower]

I have MORE TO SAY but first EVERYBIDY WHO WANTS TO KILL ME TALK FIRST ABOUT THAT!!

I’d rather you take a bit more active role and say what you want to say.

[Irrelephant11]

I think LUV/Ausuka has a scum
I am no longer interested in defending Worm
Baezu could still be scum

Townreading dave, insomnia, aristo, probably penguin, probably nero, maybe flippy?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

I’m pretty sketch on Ausuka ever since that case.

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah, and Ausuka's vote on fire was pretty bad iirc

[Irrelephant11]

I guess this

Like, I dunno what's taking us this long to decide on a lynch.

I get the feeling some players are deliberately slowing this down to the benefit of their respective hydra head. Would that be a thing? (I obviously don't mean

everyone

had a scum PM on offer. Some others may be waiting "for more info". Like, if X flips red there then Y is more likely town here by applying simple probability.. kind of thing).

I feel like it's more like there isn't like much of an universally agreed solid case for everyone so nobody wants to join a wagon when there is another they prefer and they don't see the other's opinion as strong?? But ya since we are getting to end of the day I'd be willing to join some wagon

leads into this

VOTE: fb

I just remembered the naked vote

[Dr Worm]

I am a roleblocker, and I blocked Worm last night.

then you BLOCKED TROWN DUM-DUM!!

..but I DON"T THINK YOU DID!!

VOTE: FREEBRANGER

WHY wasn"t DR WORM KILLLLLED FOR THIS?? ANWSER: SCUM thinks I"M EASY MISLYNCH!!

[PenguinPower]

Or scum has alternating night kills and Mr. Dr Worm was on the team that could kill last night?

We've only had one nk per night so far.

[Dr Worm]

POSSIBLE but NOT TRUE!!

[Dr Worm]

I"M going to DIIIIEEEEE TODAY!! LOOK for SCUM in my EARLY VOTERS!!

BUT NOT PONGWIN!! HE KNOWS MY SOUL AND HAS REAL REASONS TO VOTE ME!!

[Dr Worm]

PONGWIN could be SCUM but I not BC of VOTING ME!!

[Dr Worm]

my thing about DR. Worm is that he looks like lynch bait. I mean maybe that's just his normal posting style and its NAI. I'll re-read him later and let you guys know what I think.

WAITING..

[Dr Worm]

LIL UGGIE VORTS
INSOMBIA
BIZZLE
NORO CAIN

^SCUM R HERE

[Dr Worm]

I AM RAS ALT SO IT MUST BE TRUE!!

[insomnia]

Claim a role then.

[Ausuka]

Yeah, and Ausuka's vote on fire was pretty bad iirc

oh, you're scumreading my case now? tell me more?

[Ausuka]

i voted Fb for deadline, i wanted Luv d2 and was pretty unambiguous about that

[insomnia]

I am a roleblocker, and I blocked Worm last night.

then you BLOCKED TROWN DUM-DUM!!

..but I DON"T THINK YOU DID!!

VOTE: FREEBRANGER

WHY wasn"t DR WORM KILLLLLED FOR THIS?? ANWSER: SCUM thinks I"M EASY MISLYNCH!!

Technically speaking you could've carried the kill and since it wasn't blocked, you knew his claim was bullshit.

Whatever, I'm still a sucker for how you wobbled out of the lynch if you're a wolf here.

[Ausuka]

oh i totally forgot to mention this but I got raided by an ausukan raider again! (technically they attempted to, i don't know if it succeeded) so I guess that's some sort of weird third party thing?

[Ausuka]

to be clear absolutely nothing about my role makes me think it makes sense for there to be a role specifically targeting it

[insomnia]

Fuck, why did you counter-signal only after Irrelephant pointed it out Worm you scummy piece of shit.

[Irrelephant11]

Yeah, and Ausuka's vote on fire was pretty bad iirc

oh, you're scumreading my case now? tell me more?

No? I scumread how you sheeped my case with a naked vote and then two seconds later realized that didn't make sense for me to scumread because you did indeed say you'd be compromising
I'm scumreading how you've done very little besides defend Alisae and case LUV this game, but then if you're right on LUV I think that might make you pretty towny, so that's why I say {you, LUV} probably has a scum

[Ausuka]

Finally responding to this whee.

list of things that are bothering me about luv:

1) his baezu case is based purely on alisae's twilight post. he has voted baezu and voteparked there for most of the day, with the justification that alisae was bussed and the only one that could have done it based on alisae's description of their partner is Baezu. this would be fine except he's just taking the word of confirmed scum, who had already claimed to be scum, for their partner's identity; his justification for doing this is;

Which is still confusing because scum can be geninuely salty or upset they got caught?

that scum could, potentially, be genuinely salty and upset they got caught, and decide to throw as a result. while i suppose this is possible, luv gives absolutely no justification whatsoever as to why this should be the case, just states that it's a possibility. in reality it seems likely that even if a scum is upset they'd still try to play towards their wincon.

I really feel like ur arguing to argue with me rn not, understand my pov at all.

i feel like this from firebringer is on the mark; firebringer is saying that alisae could be lying after they got lynched. i think this is a very reasonable thing to believe, and even if i'm misconsidering something which i really don't think i am, it shouldn't be particularly difficult to see where Firebringer is coming from here. instead, LUV continues to push. looking at the context, just before this happened, luv was pushing firebringer because luv thought fire was ignoring selective things ali did. to me this appears as if luv has realized his original push was mistaken, but instead of reconsidering, he just tries to shift onto something else, because he wants to be pushing firebringer in this situation.

2) as i've already said the way he's played around the enigma kill bothers me. he uses the fact that enigma was killed to put suspicion on fire and worm. if anyone would target enigma for his reads the obvious choice would be irrelephant. the only people who were really sr-ing irrelephant were me and enigma, and since i defended flipped scum, enigma would be the obvious choice. it seems weird that luv would handwave this because he thinks irrelephant looks town, but instead of abandoning the idea, he presses that fire and worm are scum and killed enigma for his reads, even though enigma wasn't particularly scumreading either. he doesn't really answer me when i bring this up; he just reiterates that reads have to be the cause of the kill (which isn't really the case; someone could think enigma is scum, have some sort of gut-pr read there, not have any other good kill options and just deciding to off enigma because he won't be protected and isn't lynchbait, or any combination of things; we don't really know that much about what scum was thinking imo.) but he doesn't seem to actually be willing to engage with the thought that scum wouldn't fearkill someone who wasn't really scumreading them. i think when combined with the first point, this demonstrates a general rigidity; it doesn't seem as if luv is willing to take into account arguments that contradict the base arguments that he made at the start of the day, and i think this is more likely to come from scum; they have a certain set of popularish targets (fire and baezu both definitely apply for this) they'd like to push, and don't want to look outside that or start thinking about their positions, because they don't really care about who gets lynched at this point.

3) his interactions with fire in general seem scummy. even while voting baezu, luv is trying to justify a case on fire beyond what he has on worm.

didn't last game we play I was scum and u townread me all game?

Why should I believe this cheekiness is coming from town?

this, in particular, comes across this way; i don't think this is a particularly AI comment from fire and the way he's acting as if the burden is on fire to prove he isn't scum feels really weird. he does reach an okay reason; fire scumreads dr worm, but believes alisae and their partner didn't have much interaction, and dr worm and alisae have a decent amount of interactions. while this is a disreperancy, it does also make sense that FB thinks that ali's partner isn't likely to have interacted with them, and also that worm/ali interactions are scummy; these may be mutually exclusive, but i think it's reasonable for firebringer to have come to these conclusions separately. i'd expect luv to have, like, a fairly substantial response to 1689 because FB is recognizing his point is valid and Luv kinda has to judge if Fb is scum or not from this? But instead he focuses on FB using the word push and saying that Worm not scumhunting is NAI. i think town!luv would probably want to sort FB more than scum!luv (especially assuming luv isn't alipartner, which does seem to be the case; in that case there's just sk and town left and we can basically expect a normal scum attitude from scum, at this point in time, unless scum factions have more than 2 members which I wouldn't think would be the case, with these kinds of numbers.)

the questions/arguments thing is more ambiguous than i thought it was but i'll bring it up here briefly. a lot of the stuff that LUV does isn't really directly helpful to gamesolving; making fun of insomnia, responding to a50's comment about RCE, 1618, 1424 (offhand question; doesn't seem to care when pp doesn't respond) or 1425 (is saying that something in his gut is telling him FB is town but never brings this up again or acts on it in any way whatsoever, seems to just be an offhand comment.)

anyway i'm tired and these are my thoughts. i guess you guys can decide if they're good or not.

My Baezu case isn’t solely based on what Alisae said in Twlight. It’s enhanced by it though. I was one of the first people to express a scum read on her slot. Why are you acting as if I wasn’t voting for Baezu the majority of Day 1?

My justification is that Alisae is a very emotional player. They allow their emotions to show - people have always been easily able to tell if they are happy, sad, angry, etc by what they say, or how they’ve acted or composed themselves. They wear their heart on their sleeve if you will. This leads me to believe that the possibility I’m considering is a likely one.

As for scum playing to their win-condition, how much of that can really apply to Alisae? They were playing the too scummy to be scum card.

I think you’re misunderstanding the exchange I had with Fire. I thought he said not to put stock into Alisae as a whole. He clarified that he meant only the posts they made in Twlight. I questioned that. So yeah, in a way it does look like I was trying to redirect attention but shortly after, I cleared up the confusion. I wasn’t trying to redirect but just continue to question his thought process after he clarified what he said. So I guess I communicated poorly even though I don’t think I did.

I think you’re focusing way too much on the strength or the placement of said reads rather than the accuracy of said reads. Or one being on the right track. Fire and Worm are just one tier above Elephant. This could mean they’re null to leaning scum to him or they’re scum reads but not as strong. He’s still either on the right track or thinks they’re scum. Town get killed for their intuition all the time. Town get killed for having correct reads all the time, even if they aren’t shown to have strong conviction or reasoning behind them or seem not capable of pushing and getting their scum reads lynched. Take my hydra partner Creature for example.

I’ve never once pushed that idea. I’ve thrown it out there but I have not once stated this is why we should vote for Fire. I just voted for him for his read and push on Dr. Worm. You should take a look at that read list again. Me and Nero are on the same line as Fire and Worm. I think it’s fair to say that Nero was null and that I was null but could be scum for him. If you agree with this, why couldn’t he have been leaning more scum as opposed null on Fire and Worm or have light scum reads on them? Again, he’s still on the right track or accurate. Have you really not seen scum kill players for this reason?

If someone thought he was scum, we would never know. However let’s just say they thought he was, this is MB. He could’ve correctly identified the other team and/or a third-party. A gut PR read based on what? His activity here is as normal as ever so those familiar with him which seems to be a good portion of this player list wouldn’t think he’s laying low to avoid being night killed.

The last reason I think you’re stretching. I refuse to believe there wasn’t better kill options than Enigma.

As for that comment, why did you completely stripped the context away from it? Nero stated why he’s suspicious of Fire and Fire just dodges the question in a very cheeky manner. It may not be alignment indicative for you, but it is for me as I don’t think Nero’s read there deserved that kind of response.

You may have been voting Baezu for most of d1 but you never stated a reason for that, as far as I'm aware, so it's still correct that Alisae's twilight posts are the only reason that you've talked about and I don't think this invalidates anything that I said.

Alisae is an emotional player? Maybe. I don't see the connection that has to gamethrowing though?

I think there's a big difference between using a tactic that you don't agree with and publicly posting honest information about your scumbuddy without attempt to WIFOM which is what you're implying. One is play that you don't agree with and one is reportable.

I don't get your point w/ the fire thing: I reread it and read your point and I don't at all see what I'm supposed to have misunderstood. What was it exactly that made you want to keep pushing Firebringer on this even after the initial confusion had been cleared?

Just one tier is quite a large distinction when there are four tiers, wouldn't you agree? And placement and strength are basically the core of accuracy? Like, putting players on the correct placement in your list and having enough conviction to actually care about the read are essentially what accuracy is. If a player isn't really scumreading the scum how are they accurate?

I've never seen scum kill anyone for nullreading them, no. I could perhaps see it if scum were extremely townread; I don't think this at all applies to Fire and Worm d1 however.

He could've identified the other team or a 3p maybe but I don't think that's worth risking. And I mean gutreads are gutreads; I never get gut PR reads on anyone and don't really know what to look for but I wouldn't be surprised if someone who knew Enigma felt he was a little off and therefore scum or PR. I don't think this is too important of discussion anyway as it was kind of a side comment in my case rather than a point against you.

Fire dodged... what question exactly? I've looked at the context and am looking again and I don't see any sort of question.

[Ausuka]

Yeah, and Ausuka's vote on fire was pretty bad iirc

oh, you're scumreading my case now? tell me more?

No? I scumread how you sheeped my case with a naked vote and then two seconds later realized that didn't make sense for me to scumread because you did indeed say you'd be compromising
I'm scumreading how you've done very little besides defend Alisae and case LUV this game, but then if you're right on LUV I think that might make you pretty towny, so that's why I say {you, LUV} probably has a scum

idk why you agreed with luv saying my case was sketchy then but w/e.

I might be the lowest in postcount but I have a hard time imaging that I'm the player who's done the least in this game to the point you outright scumread me for it. I defended Alisae, derailed insomnia wagon a little d1, pushed you, and pushed LUV; those are 4 seperate things I did. I think this is more than, say, Flippynips, Baezu or Aristo.