Large Normal 221 - Endgame

[Kirari Momobami]

Vork is prob town

Why's that?

[DeasVail]

Do you think you're out of your scumrange Deas?

I wouldn’t describe my play here as being out of my scumrange as much as it’s just a very different approach from what I take as scum. I don’t really think I have a “scumrange” because when I’ve been on my A game as scum in the past I’ve been able to get myself into townblocs (although this does get exhausting for me), and I think my scumgame is fairly inconsistent.. But on that note, me being scum is much more of a “performance” than I feel my play has been here. As town I can be really on point but I also can be kind of underwhelming and while I don’t often get lynched as town I’m quite often a lynch candidate and someone that scum often think they can mislynch. I think that my play around Red is probably the most striking thing that would be opposite of scum-me. I am pretty sure I would have bussed him.

[DeasVail]

oh, that's right!

VOTE: pops

I had this thought too, but I don’t see how he can be scum here.

[Kirari Momobami]

I’ll still ask people to reconsider Otter as an option.

You know shit this is a point, the slip would only mean that scum don't have a traitor. I don't know why scum had a cop if they don't have a traitor and there's no SK, but you're right that it doesn't in itself make him town... still...

:/

Given the evidence we have that there is a traitor or something, I'm not sure he's a good lynch today. But hopefully I'm not letting him off too easily here?

[nomnomnom]

I’ll still ask people to reconsider Otter as an option.

You know shit this is a point, the slip would only mean that scum don't have a traitor. I don't know why scum had a cop if they don't have a traitor and there's no SK, but you're right that it doesn't in itself make him town... still...

:/

Given the evidence we have that there is a traitor or something, I'm not sure he's a good lynch today. But hopefully I'm not letting him off too easily here?

[popsofctown]

VOTE: otter

[nomnomnom]

VOTE: otter

Do I also need to play the clown music

[popsofctown]

absolutely

[Kirari Momobami]

So the situation now is that we're not going to get a consensus out of Vork vs. DV and frankly I'm not sure which of the two is scum.

However, nomnom is scum so we should probably just lynch that slot today since I now have very little confidence in Otter flipping scum and I'm not sure who of the remaining candidates I'm right or wrong on.

So let's think through this slot.

HWS/Nom earlyish game

Hmm no not a fan of Montosh here. Too serious a reaction and I think Nero has a fair point in reacting to that.

Also it only took Saudade 2 pages to blow up the game, nice.

This is just a weird post and if we look at here

I think that's a good catch and I think it really is something scum could do.

He's 0/2 for scumreads right now, and thinking of HWS... it's kinda surprising he has so many scumreads so early almost? HWS isn't bad, exactly, but he is coming off as having much stronger reads than I would expect for early game here

Agree with this, also light TR on Kirari/Otter/Vorkuta for the time being.
Not really seeing pisskop scum either

Huh, all of these townreads are still alive, and I know I am town. Pisskop also flipped town, but HWS+Otter or Vork works really well here for s/s.

Mostly though, I have looked at HWS's towngames, and this is kinda a surprisingly structured list given how briefly he was in the game. Usually as town he kinda pokes and prods more early rather than coming out with a whole buncha reads.

Not much yet - as I said I'm due to re-read the game - but after a bit of looking this afternoon I'd say I have a soft scumlean on Vork and Kop.

Weird flip on Vork; not sure what it means but it doesn't make me MORE confident that his reads earlier were real

Anyway, nothing town indicative in the iso IMO

Now, Nom has a lot of posts. I don't want to break the site by walling too much but let's look at some selections

Also waiting for Kirari's result before doing anything today.

Again, this makes zero sense. "Motion" or "no motion" is worth stalling the game over? This is not a town thought process or a town reaction to a claim made in RVS and never mentioned after.

Creature has been killed.

GOOD shot.

VOTE: Eyes

Scummy overreaction

Also I'm going to be honest this game has a lot of people that are complete ??? in my mind aside from a few people where I have *some* idea of what's happening with them.

Who are the people you have some idea on?

Huh honestly the only person I am sure is town is Kublai. Just town through and through.

There's too much lurking and questionable stuff happening this game on too many fronts to make solid reads. 44 pages on day 1 in a large and most of it is a guy going lolrandomxd. That's bad to build reads.

Considering her predecessor was wagoned early game and there was a wagon on the flipped scum that was killed like, this is a really jarring characterization of day 1. Why does she think it was uninformative?

But this is important given that she wants to keep her lynch options open, lol, something she consistently does through the entire game. nom does a great job of antispewing while posting a lot, which mostly involves her giving scummy 'reactions' rather than sustained analysis

imo you're reading too much into it, literally would not have thought that ever

Are you just trying to discredit my theory because you share a scum PT with him and this is thwarting your plans?

what a great deduction
nominating this for moment of brilliance

not

scummy overreaction

I think you're not scumhunting at all, you've been trying to fish things out of people and clearly reaching. None of what you've been doing is actually scumhunting and the small tidbit you've been doing is surface level.

So I think you're scum.

It's interesting that she projects so much confidence here on joining the game but as the game goes on it gets dropped without there ever being a point where she started thinking Jesus was town

My biggest question is if Jesus is scum, why does he kill Eyes, which was his biggest push before RF did an oopsie.

What's super jarring here is she has this logic about Jesus on *Eyes* but does NOT have this logic about Jesus on pisskop! So she spent the entire preceding dayphase pushing Jesus when Jesus would have had to have pushed his biggest fos before killing, only to then turn around and decide that suddenly NKA is relevant to her read? That's not a townie inconsistency.

kk town
otter town
kirari townlean
red scumlean

need to re-assess eyes soon
That's about where I am. This game is hard to work in re-looking at day one

Now, this isn't that bad of a post, in fact I know two of these reads are correct (given my role pm and Red's scumflip), and another could be correct (KK). But what's *really jarring* here is not this post in itself, but the fact that this post demonstrate that nom can form a readslist early in the game without great difficulty, even if incomplete. Compare that to today when she has been asked 4 times for a readslist and has stalled or skirted the issue every single time. She has shifted to anti-spewing the more she has gotten pushed, trying to make more and more of the game about her 1v1 with me, arguing otter town, and pushing ofrhz for scum with very little logical reasoning given for any other slot. It's like the game consists of 4 people if you look at her iso today.

Now how does she have so many posts when she is talking about so few people? Well look at how she pushes Jesus...

Spoiler:

hm...

VOTE: jesus

I just think Jesus has a good chance flipping scum now though.

Tbh the fact it's a large isn't my problem, just that many slots are hard to sort. The amount of posts this game is absurdly low for a large.
I expected to have better cases replacing in n1 and rereading the thread but I guess things are still a bit shaky.

Jesus is my only solid lead so far.

Why nom? I kinda liked her interaction with Jesus

that whole "I only have one strong scum read" just looks like scum that's keeping their options open.

Not gonna force reads I'm not confident in.
I like jesus as scum so I'm pushing that. I don't really see the problem.

I am not mocking you, look at what Jesus is doing.

Btw Jesus I don’t think Nom is scum. The points they are making are different to Eyes, who is using the whole ‘everyone must act completely logically at all times’ approach.

The problem is that I feel you're using the exact opposite logic though.

"He's constantly irrational, must be town".

One of my problems is that I also have reasons to be careful about Eyes but Jesus is just scummier overall.

here's a collection of quotes that just ping me, not detailed. I'm not good at cases but these are the posts that I read. What's in here summarizes what I said earlier

What about a crumb for a fake Miller claim down the line?

I don't get where you're going with this.

IMO, He put the word Gun in quotes for a reason

Montosh is 100% town.

Hmm no not a fan of Montosh here. Too serious a reaction and I think Nero has a fair point in reacting to that.

Also it only took Saudade 2 pages to blow up the game, nice.

I read this and thought I had scum pt access for a sec.

VOTE: HeWhoSwims

I'll try to make my question more answerable. Your first few posts were just fluff. This nis the first one that makes some meaning. Why is this scum indicative of HWS? And what's your current read on nomnomnomnomnomnom (to an eternity)?

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Why?

I wasn't very fond of the HWS slot to begin with.

Current read on nom is leaning scum.

Why?

I wasn't very fond of the HWS slot to begin with.

That is an answer, but that doesn't answer my question. What has the either HeWhoSwims or nomnomnom done to make you think that they have a scum role?

Because right now I'm siding with them in that you're evasive.

I wouldn't say I'm being evasive, I think of it more like being speculative. Is there anything wrong with that?

I don't get it.

Would you be willing to just trust me?

Not really.

I just want to understand your vote.

What does it matter if you have me as scum.

VOTE: Eyes

Alright.

I don't think I vote montosh today. Not over Jesus, Eyes or RF.

A massive amount of superficial reasoning on Jesus without every really developing a sustained explanation for how his play fits a scum agenda. No reflection or change in stance toward Jesus when she moves off.

[popsofctown]

idk the game kinda does consist of four people today

I townread most of the slots

[nomnomnom]

I refuse to give a readlists when I know why you want a readslist.
In fact my only two towngames here have been completely devoid of readslists at all. You can check that if you want.

[Nero Cain]

oh, that's right!

VOTE: pops

I had this thought too, but I don’t see how he can be scum here.

tell me more!

[Kirari Momobami]

Part 2 -- Midgame to end of page 1 of iso

lol

VOTE: RedFlavor

Easy bus

I'm gonna guess there's a serial killer this game given the flip.

Not an unreasonable inference at this point actually and one of the better points for nom

The SK would make sense to give to scums having commuters I guess?

This is a weird setup man lol

Agreed, but scum commuters with no scum investigative structure I guess is...? especially vs. half BP vigs? I guess this doesn't really think very critically about Niko's role which was on the stronger side.

I honestly wonder why scums/SK decided to kill eyes given the heavy push on him yesterday by the way. I find that honestly nonsensical.

I just don't see it.

I kinda already went off about this but I hate the "I just don't see it" posts which are littered throughout her iso which give her a chance to take no stance and basically just make a post that has the other person talk more while she doesn't really reflect on their agenda or their thought process at all. There's a lot of posts where she says "I just don't see it" and this post in particular feels like it contradicts a lot of what she later says.

#townslip time - do scum get told if there’s a traitor?

A Traitor is considered Normal on mafiascum.net, as long as it:

• - is Mafia-aligned
  - knows the identities of all of the Mafia team
  -
  identity is not known by the Mafia team, although they should know a Traitor exists
  
  - cannot be recruited to join the rest of the Mafia team, and (unless Bulletproof) is killed if shot
  - is endgamed if all other Mafia are dead
  - gives a "guilty" result to Cops, an "innocent" result to Gunsmiths, and a "Traitor" result to Role Cops

Going for the wiki quote instead of just explaining how the role works; i.e. making sure she's not perspective slipping on rolecard

I guess I don't have that much of an opposition for the Montosh wagon.

intent

Compare to:

I don't think I vote montosh today. Not over Jesus, Eyes or RF.

That she contradicts herself isn't the problem, the fact is that all of her comments about Montosh throughout the day are superficial and since she says so little about her reads in a structured manner it's hard to notice weird flips like this.

NEUTRAL shot

weird + scummy overreaction

VOTE: KK
I am not unvoting until he claims his role and information.

Bad push on someone that she never articulates a scum agenda for given the gamestate.

It's also a significant gain to do this for a SK because the conversation changes significantly and the way you hunt for scums changes significantly. It's not something you do with no reason. KK!SK has legitimate reasons to do this so I want to stop the paranoia and make him claim his information. It shouldn't be a problem given the massive advantage town has right now and it would mean we literally just win.

Right now the strongest piece of evidence you have is that you *feel* that there should be a SK in the game.

How about you claim something that justifies that feeling? Any reasoning at all. Anything.

Scum cop.
Weird nightkills.
The fact that 3 scums - 1 traitor would be hella weak.
It just makes more sense to have a configuration with a SK.

"3scums -1 traitor would be hella weak" sounds like scum complaining about the balance of their scumteam; also given the power of creature and redflavor's roles almost objectively untrue

the emphasis on the nightkills being "weird" also continues to bother me

VOTE: ofrhz
so much fucking idiocy

why do you scumread ofrhz again?

I'm done with the thread for a while

When she does this scummy overreaction, she has basically articulated no real reason to scumread ofrhz

Otter is lynchbait calling it now.

She has before this point basically offered no meaningful read of Otter so this just comes out of nowhere. Notice that about her reads; the majority of them seem like they're just pulled out of thin air

[popsofctown]

Nomnomnom

Are you open to lynching me in LyLo

[popsofctown]

what if nom spends 99% of noms posts on setup spec not because nom is antitown but because nom comes from chatroom mafia

[DeasVail]

oh, that's right!

VOTE: pops

I had this thought too, but I don’t see how he can be scum here.

*she

Sorry for the mispronoun

[nomnomnom]

is everything I say a scummy overreaction to you or do you simply not get that I act like this in literally all of my games?

I also had a good defense of Otter because you specifically were on that wagon and I saw that lynchbait coming from miles away, and I refuse to be on that wagon for a reason. I think if there's a traitor this game, you're traitor. If there isn't you're an extremely bad chaotic townie spinning your head around like an headless chicken trying to discredit everything I say with LOLs and little smileys :/

Remind me your case for Of town again?

[popsofctown]

nom i know you posted otherwise in MD but you need to come play a super vanilla open setup that is all about dayplay and wallposting and embrace it with both of your arms and learn to love the monster that is mafia played on forum software that was available in 1998

[nomnomnom]

Nomnomnom

Are you open to lynching me in LyLo

The only reason I could have ever seen you as anti-town is when the SK theory was the main theory on the table and I could see a SK acting like you are. So if we're going for traitor/scum-cop red herring, I think you're town through and through.

[DeasVail]

Also Kirari there are some things you’ve mentioned about nom that I want to consider but I’m not as convinced by things such as “scummy overreaction” stuff.

I also know I asked before, and I may have missed your response to it, but what does nom do as town that is different from what they have done here.

[nomnomnom]

nom i know you posted otherwise in MD but you need to come play a super vanilla open setup that is all about dayplay and wallposting and embrace it with both of your arms and learn to love the monster that is mafia played on forum software that was available in 1998

Lmao I know what mountainous is my dude
Setup spec is actually important here though because it defines what we're looking for. Isn't that obvious? I don't really understand everyone's confusion about why I think it's capital.

[Nero Cain]

Deas is really starting to look like fence-sitting scum

[popsofctown]

oh, that's right!

VOTE: pops

I had this thought too, but I don’t see how he can be scum here.

*she

Sorry for the mispronoun

Feel free to pronoun me "he", I just hate getting pronoun'ed "they" and I've arrived at thinking matching my avatar to my pronoun preference minimizes the probability people keep doing that.

[Nero Cain]

"I had the same thought as you Nero, but I doubt pops is scum"

"there are some things about your case on nom to consider but I'm not convinced"

[nomnomnom]

"I had the same thought as you Nero, but I doubt pops is scum"

"there are some things about your case on nom to consider but I'm not convinced"

I agree with that.

@DV Can you detail your thoughts perhaps?