Open 762: CK9++ [Over!]

[Doctor Drew]

VOTE: jackal

I remember you from when I used to play ages ago.

And by ages ago......5 years ago.

Are you a secret alt or are you out?

Imma let you finish your deep dive, but wanted to jump in to say..........not an alt per se. I used to have an account on here, FuDuzn if anyone else wants meta as well. But literally haven't used it in 5 years and wanted to start fresh.

[Formerfish]

Sakura leaning scum, you leaning town, brafin was leaning scum til I did a meta search at which point it became "null but learn more"

Why is Hana scumlean for you? And you voted JB after you did the meta search which led you to a null read on him?

Why vote JB a meta null read, over Hana a scumlean for you?

[Formerfish]

Jackal also leaning town now that I think about it more.

I wanna iso people and quote the posts these people have made up until when you say these reads to see what you are reading into soo many people.

[Formerfish]

Unvote

VOTE: Sakura Hana

Are you a shotgun player?

[Formerfish]

phil is basically guaranteed to either be scum or towntell very hard very quickly when put under pressure so let's go friends

Does that work when you announce that's what you're doing?

Not usually, unless someone knows how to manipulate their meta, but if they are aware enough about that then it doesnt matter at all.

Could that have been the point, like an empty threat?

[Formerfish]

Nah.

Phil is likely town though.

Are you saying no to all 3, and what are you seeing in town phil?

[Formerfish]

Last time with the food question it ended nowhere. (I liked though that the Italian food answer actually came from scum)

Skells gone, but does anyone know what she was talking about?

[Formerfish]

Fuck you.

That escalated quickly.

Your sister's house. I hear she's freaky.

Refusing to comply without coming out and saying that is what hes doing.

I would say that you are just being cheeky, especially with the middle part where you agree with him about RVS being useless.

I disagree with you both, but i can see how this is probably a jokey post.

I was toxic. Why aren't you voting me?

And this is further proof.

I was ignoring the blatant attempts to draw conflict that were obviously trolly in nature.
The fact that you’re still trying to force me to 1v1 with you is major scum points though.

Which JB seems to get here, and then also see as scum somehow. I dont think scum ever gets into a 1v1 over something that clumsily. You would have to believe that scumPers is trying to draw you out into a 1v1 by challanging your no toxic people policy in the most obvious way.

[Formerfish]

...in fact now I'm looking at your posts here harder, it's hard to remotely reconcile your claimed methodology with that vote, and as you say, you don't vote randomly. So yeah, James back to looking very suspect here.

I read this as i am going to now read everything with confbias and will now enter what can only be known as a death tunnel.

Did anyone else read that here?

[Sakura Hana]

I like this formerfish person for town.

[Sakura Hana]

You voted Gamma and then 1 person voted after you, 2 posts later you unvote because things are moving too fast.

This is basically this entire game so far.
Every.
Single.
Wagon.
"OH MY GOD TOO FAST WAGON"

[Formerfish]

When you actually have something important to say let me know.
Kthxbye

Why dont you point out what that is being said that isnt important?

[Formerfish]

To be absolutely clear, because you're claiming I was voting you for not giving information in a single post: Your refusal to vote in RVS was itself the thing that was denying information, and threatened to continue. Voting for you was intended to get you to give us information sooner rather than later. And hey, look at that, it worked.

So to be clear, he didnt outright refuse to give info, he just didnt follow blindly towards what people should be doing and went his own way, a way you looked into and found that he does as either alignment.

So if this is a NAI activity for him, why the vote?

[Formerfish]

I think this James person is town.

I think youre right. Do you have a read off Phil in this situation, or just JB?

[Sakura Hana]

I think this James person is town.

I think youre right. Do you have a read off Phil in this situation, or just JB?

At that point i had him as scum.
Not sure what to think of him right now coz of the latest wagon developments.

[Formerfish]

(But dw I'm done with that now)

This is the second time you mention being done with trolling, do you ever explain why it existed in the first place?

[Sakura Hana]

You know, i never noticed that.

[Formerfish]

Things can be based in an impression of someone's personality that I got from like two posts.

A.K.A. a gut read.

Have you never played with a charismatic scumteam? Why wouldnt they want to come off well in their first impressions with the rest of the town?

Anyone can fake a few posts, we need them talking to see if their lines hold up over time or if we can see the flaws better once they get stretched out.

[Formerfish]

He's simply self-evidently obvtown.

I know this is selfdisserving, but I really cant respect a read this strong on day 1 from anyone. Like it just makes me wonder why you are so sure off so little. Do you need me for something that you are going to blatantly buddy Jackel?

I have been wrong on this as well, i once lynched Alonzo on day 1 because he gave a cop lvl clear on someone. He was right and we eventually won the game, but the sureness he showed cost us a mislynch.

[Formerfish]

So on the last page Phil comes off as very town.

I never know what to do when someone reads the same stuff I have and comes away with something completely different. I guess this is how I would feel walking away from a trump rally.

I dont see what town motivation there is in pushing someone you have meta dived to find that the thing they are going to push for is something that he does as any alignment in the dive that he preformed to find out about the activity in question.

I see scum motivation in pushing an easy mislynch based off a difference in playstyle.

Vote on Phil in spirit until i know what the current count is

[Formerfish]

As for real scumreads:

I actually really strongly dislike Skellen's two posts so far. It reads like scum who opened the thread, saw James's question and said "oh sure, I can answer that", then continued reading the thread looking for something to respond to, saw my post with my random-ass townreads, and went "oh sure, I can give a response to this."

Bro.

I don't know if this is a scum slip or a town slip... I would have to think about whether the mod would mention the IC in the scum pt as well as here. If mod mentions it there then there is no way that scum talks about it in here like that, they would assume that we all knew Skell was clear. It also makes us try and think if there is a way that townImp didnt see that first post.

I replaced in, but I saw it when i first read through. I would assume that most of the town would have seen it as we are looking for every little bit of info we can find. I think maybe scum werent told about it in the pt and missed it in the op because they didnt care.

Wasnt imp the first to post, and then chem came right in and then bounced?

Sakura I actually thought calling James town was very out-of-nowhere scummy but then I saw that she actually asked him a question so it's fine. I'd like to hear more from her than just choosing one specific thing (James calling a vote opportunistic) to engage directly with.

So hana null?

Persivul could very easily be scum. If he is then James is almost certainly town.

Why, and why?

I kind of do think James is town after a few more moments of pondering but I don't feel strongly about it.

So you felt hanna was scum for tring JB, but now you are null reading hanna because of her tr on JB, but you might also have a tr on JB?

[Formerfish]

I actually really strongly dislike Skellen's two posts so far. It reads like scum who opened the thread, saw James's question and said "oh sure, I can answer that", then continued reading the thread looking for something to respond to, saw my post with my random-ass townreads, and went "oh sure, I can give a response to this."

Push that and I'll fight you to the end.

I like this. I would have made this exact post if id been here.

[Formerfish]

I actually really strongly dislike Skellen's two posts so far. It reads like scum who opened the thread, saw James's question and said "oh sure, I can answer that", then continued reading the thread looking for something to respond to, saw my post with my random-ass townreads, and went "oh sure, I can give a response to this."

Push that and I'll fight you to the end.

Interesting, why

Because skellen's the fucking IC.

This you could have drug out a bit. I would have just said that if you couldnt see how skell was obvtown then you should case him and then let people hang themselves. It can backfire too, jingle cased himself once in a game and called his pred scum, he wasnt. We won the game, nbd.

[Formerfish]

So on the last page Phil comes off as very town. E.g., 62-64 is a good reaction. James comes off more strongly as giving off his personality than giving anything useful for reading him, which is a bit annoying. James is spending paragraphs talking about how RVS is inferior, which is basically spending paragraphs talking about nothing. Post 72 is such an absurd way to use logic. It's just not useful. It's like he's framing it as a formal logical argument to show he can, and then the flaw that he points out in the way that he's formalizing it isn't even the actual flaw in the argument, it's just a premise that he disagrees with (the actual flaw being that the argument all A are B, C is not A, therefore C is not B being invalid).

So James.

Without talking about RVS because I think you and I both agree it's a deeply uninteresting thing, and without talking about how anyone's logic is bad (because bad logic is perhaps the least accurate "scumtell" in history), is there any actual reason Phil's posting is more likely to come from scum than from town?

Again, I find Phil is behaving in a very opportunistic fashion. He “doesn’t like” my position, so suddenly I’m suspicious, even though I’ve actually explained my reasoning and generated a ton of information relatively quickly. To borrow a line from his book, I don’t like that. It feels like he’s probing for a mislynch and looking for reasons to scumread me.

And now I’ve made clear the validity of my points, he backs off.
I’m not sure how I feel about that.

This actually makes sense to me.

When Phil unvoted i looked at the count to see who he was even on, and even the mod missed it, so I had to look back and saw that Phil was on JB, because of the RVS thing.

So why unvote like that, slinking away once someone stood up against his crap reason for voting.

Like he went to look for something to hang JB on, found out the opposite was true, and then still tried to hang him anways.

That is clearly trying to twist info to fit your narrative, and not changing the narrative with new info intertwined.

[Formerfish]

And now I’ve made clear the validity of my points,

This is not how argumentation works.

You don't get to make points in the format of a formal logical argument and magically have them be "valid" and win the argument. Other people just see it as another level of arguing back and forth.

In this case JB showed that the reasoning Phil was using to justify his vote on JB was faulty, and therefore a bad vote because it was based on faulty info.

If Phil had done a meta dive and found that JB prefers RQS in his scum games, and RVS in his town reads, there would be a basis for his vote on JB for not engaging in rvs.

Instead, Phil found out that there is no info either way in JB past games, and still decided that it was scummy here, with no basis other than his belief. How does someone dissuade someone from a baseless belief?