Open 762: CK9++ [Over!]

[Formerfish]

Hana, I need you to explain your vote history to me.

You were on phil, and then when thes said he thought phil was suspect you voted thes.

Then Dry voted for thes, and you voted for dry.

It seems like you are scumreading the people who are scumreading the people you are currently voting and you keep changing your vote to the person who most recently voted or sr the person youre on.

Why?

My reads are pretty flickle on day 1.
I felt Phil was scummy, but after implosion explained dry i felt like that was scummier so i voted dry, but now i didnt like the implo post i linked so there's a 180 there.

Sorry if im bad at explaining orz

Do you feel like you are on an island?

[Formerfish]

Can people start doing more AI stuff.

Be a leader. There has been plenty said that you could push at this point. You've seemed town so far, this seems lazy and scummy.

Im not a good leader.

Thats fair. Then understand where you are weak and figure out a way to not be weak there. If you cant lead then you need to figure out how to find someone you can sheep.

Hana this will help you if your day 1 is sketchy.

[Phillammon]

...I feel like we're talking past each other somewhat, but honestly that last para sufficiently clarifies your stance to me, so I'll stop badgering.

[Formerfish]

I feel like we're talking past each other somewhat

You and Imp said the same thing about me. I dont know if this is a scum thing where you pretend I dont make sense so that you can attempt to discredit me or what.

I feel like I have understood your points against me and have shown why I think they are wrong. What arent I getting?

[Sakura Hana]

Do you feel like you are on an island?

Honestly, i feel more like im on a jungle.

[Gamma Emerald]

Also, now that THAT catchup is over:
So the Fish is prob town here. I don’t think scum has that level of faked scumhunting, posted thought process, and detail.
That being said, you do realize Thespio has never, as far as I’m aware, returned to his comments on the players he votes? He says that they look bad, votes them, and never actually explains why they look bad. Just because he agrees with you that Phil doesn’t look good doesn’t make him town. While you have, IMO, legit reasons, Thes was highly opportunistic in his voting.

Thespio hasn't voted yet actually

[Phillammon]

408 itself Is nothing to do with any point I am making. I get what you are talking about in that post. You do not need to continually explain it. It is just noticable in the context of your ISO as the last point at which anything really changes. It makes sense as a natural plateau only if you genuinely believe that everything after 135 is not info (outside of, as you say, wagons, claims and flips, of which we've had none). Given you've been calling out people for making reads based on what you consider to be not enough posts, that feels real early to hit that "plateau"

[Formerfish]

Do you feel like you are on an island?

Honestly, i feel more like im on a jungle.

Find a machete.

[Formerfish]

408 itself Is nothing to do with any point I am making. I get what you are talking about in that post. You do not need to continually explain it. It is just noticable in the context of your ISO as the last point at which anything really changes. It makes sense as a natural plateau only if you genuinely believe that everything after 135 is not info (outside of, as you say, wagons, claims and flips, of which we've had none). Given you've been calling out people for making reads based on what you consider to be not enough posts, that feels real early to hit that "plateau"

I havent stopped letting new info affect my reads.

I didnt stop reading at post 135 and call it a day. The post you are talking about is 408, where JB gave his reads, and I gave my take on them.

At the end of my read through I gave a reads list based off what I had read.

How do you suggest I do it differently?

[Formerfish]

Phil if you keep playing this way you are going to have to change the number in your sig agian.

[James Brafin]

Also, now that THAT catchup is over:
So the Fish is prob town here. I don’t think scum has that level of faked scumhunting, posted thought process, and detail.
That being said, you do realize Thespio has never, as far as I’m aware, returned to his comments on the players he votes? He says that they look bad, votes them, and never actually explains why they look bad. Just because he agrees with you that Phil doesn’t look good doesn’t make him town. While you have, IMO, legit reasons, Thes was highly opportunistic in his voting.

Thespio hasn't voted yet actually

I could have sworn he voted Phil.
Looking at the VC, that’s obviously not the case. But the point still stands. Thespio is playing a very opportunistic game that has consisted of lurking, shading, and no basis.

[Gamma Emerald]

If you think that town misses info like that, and it's NAI, why did you go at the people who missed the info so hard?

I didn't go at them hard. No push, no votes based on it. Didn't let it go on, as you noted yourself. So. why do you portray me as going after them hard? The single word "fucking"?

And I'm not getting the slang at the end of your post there. It's that a nod to me living in Pittsburgh?

Yes. Should be obvious to anyone who's lived in Pittsburgh for more than a month or so.

I should tell everyone i was raised in an actually decent state not here.

I'll have to check state mottoes for the

I have a stick up my ass

state. Pretty sure that's where you're from.

I mean partly, also because you got involved at all. I never understand why town gets involved in things like that. Last game I played one player did a fakehammer gambit, and another player stepped in the middle of it and fucked it up. They both ended up being town, but that act led me to scumread the guy breaking it up. He couldnt give a good reason for getting involved and thats an issue for me.

Ive lived in Pittsburgh for 6 years and what you said is not recognizable to any of the tribes as native slang. Were you trying to go for an n'at? That was close, but maybe your Yinzer slang proficiency is lacking, along with some other qualities you are clearly exhibiting a deficiency in.

Sounds like we might be from the same homestate if you think i have a stick up my ass. You have been the one intentionally trying to rile people up. To what end? Whats your goal? Make on of us angry and hope that we say something scummy enough for you to latch onto and you can easily slip into a tunnel that isnt going to go anywhere but allow you to act busy cause you are so focused on that one person everyone else has as townish, but you, you know youve found a deep wolf...

Try being less of a dick.

Y'all are fun to watch, but keep it civil, I don't want this shit

[Spangled]

Unless...
Unless you are thinking about Imp here and got the names messed up? Cause if that was the case I could understand after seeing Imps iso and these:

VOTE: Persivul

VOTE: Phillammon

Unvote

VOTE: Sakura Hana

VOTE: Chemist1422

VOTE: thespio
Moving out today so limited energy.

VOTE: Dry-fit
This seems new and hip

Can't vote the IC, even though he started to push there, but was stopped by Pers (I think this ties Pers to Imp a little. Like if Imp flips scum then Pers could be his buddy telling him to shut the fuck up about the IC being scum).

If Pers and Imps were scum together, why wouldn’t Pers just tell him in their PT?

[Sakura Hana]

Presumably coz no day talk in this setup?

[Formerfish]

If Pers and Imps were scum together, why wouldn’t Pers just tell him in their PT?

I generally assume out of the newbie thread that scum dont get day talk.

[Spangled]

Ah. Whoops.

After this enormous thread-battle, implosion, Phil, Pers and FF are feeling town to me.

[Gamma Emerald]

fakeable ≠ definitely faked
fakeable ≠ probably faked
fakeable ≠ definitely fakeable by everyone
jesus fucking christ this is not complicated. It feels like you're trying to willfully misconstrue my sentiment.

While they don't equate it sure is a gap in logic, that would mean you have q certain expectation of Ffish's play, what is that?

[Sakura Hana]

Do you feel like you are on an island?

Honestly, i feel more like im on a jungle.

Find a machete.

And a compass too, probably.

[implosion]

I'll talk about the rest of this post as well, but.

Im against your policy lynch, as It discourages genuine clash. If someone comes across poorly you try to kill them... which is toxic in and of its self.

Do you really think there's any chance of a policy lynch? This seems like a contrived attempt at contributing.

implosion wagon doesn't look possible today so

Unvote. Vote: Thespio.

This is the only suspect post in the bunch of them, and you didnt even use it as your evidence of him being scum.

1 scummy post out of 6 that I pulled from his iso doesnt make him scum to me, it makes him town, with a slight lean.

This is very literally the only thing that I have called scummy so far from dry-fit. I have no idea how you get that I "didn't even use it as my evidence of him being scum".

531 was just me giving an example of me disagreeing with your townread of him. I don't think that the post I cited there (113) is especially scummy but it is not townish in the slightest. The reasoning you're now giving for that post is:

I liked this vote because you are eventaully going to vote for 6 different people in 40 posts and I dont think you back up any of them with even a joke reason.

And I agree with his stance on Pers that it would have been useful to town for more info to come out. I can understand why you disagree because you were scumreading the Innocent Child and thats just embarrassing.

Liking a vote on me for things that I did after the vote is absurd. Even if the implication is that I'm scum and so it's good that he voted me... there's no reason not to think that this vote is distancing. Like I shouldn't need to explain why it's stupid to like a vote because of things that happened after the vote.

And that's the thing - I *DON'T* disagree with Pers! I think it would have been great for him to not remind me that Skellen was the IC! I just don't think Dry-Fit should get any credit for pointing out that it would have been good for Persivul to play that way, because it's really easy for Dry-Fit, as scum, to think of it as a point that could be made even though it's too late for the town to get any benefit from making that point. Just because the point that Dry-Fit made is accurate and logically sound, and explains something that could have been done that *would* have benefitted town, doesn't mean that it's something scum is unlikely to post. If Dry-Fit had finagled Persivul to not give up that info *before* he had, then that would be a different story. That's the entire point of what I was saying in 531.

[Gamma Emerald]

see, I like elaborating reasons I might be wrong. Doing so will let me bounce ideas off of actual helpful players like elastic plastic and come to better conclusions. I like to work together with people, and being transparent about my thought process is a great way to do that.

I'm sorry you don't like my playstyle; you're welcome to keep using your own!

This post feels a little towny

[implosion]

This is another great example of why I described your logic as disjointed and find it really hard to work with - how the fuck am I supposed to talk to you about townreading someone for reasons that defy causality?????? Why does someone get credit for voting for me for things that I would *eventually* go on to do?

[Sakura Hana]

But the thing is...
I feel like Fish's been asking implo about his townread of phil for a while, specially the tr early in the game, and then implo comes and quotes a late post saying "See this is why he's town" instead of actually explaining the early townread, which feels to me like he's dodging the issue.

[implosion]

Looking at the rest of this:

Spoiler: FF's Dry-Fit wall

Vote: Chemist1422

Laziest post so far.

Solid RVS vote.

Sure.

Dryfit, any specific reads on that list you disagree with, or just generically don't feel they're good?

More I just don't think they're good in general.

Although to be fair the Jackal town read wasn't too bad, albeit based on one post.

Having conflicting reads about James right now.

I liked this post for showing the start of a process.

I actually liked this post as well at the time, specifically for the fact that he called the Jackal read better than the others; not a strong read, however.

Can people start doing more AI stuff.

Why not do something to try to make that happen? You're play has been very passive so far.

Drew's Persivul vote is probably the worst vote of the game so far.

Gonna try to get a reread in tonight.

Why does scumDry poke Hana here? Scum would languish in the fact that the thread is dead and nothing was happening that forced them to act. Like I am now. Scum is going to be forced to come out of their hidey holes and try to discredit me as much as possible.

And Drews vote was pretty bad.

Plenty of reasons for scum-him to poke Hana there. He might have been going through, seen that post, saw it as something easy to respond to, and responded to it. He might be trying to go for towncred by making it look like he has an investment in people doing alignment-indicative things.

As for scum languishing in the fact that the thread is dead... Dry-Fit didn't exactly do anything whatsoever to help that problem with this post. It was his first post in ~30 hours, so he had to talk about *something*. His purported reread that he wanted to get in resulted in two more posts, before he didn't post all weekend. So yeah, he is kind of languishing in the fact that the thread is dead?

As for Drew's vote being pretty bad: yeah, it's pretty bad. Dry-Fit said something agreeable here. Agreeability isn't a towntell. Scum say agreeable and correct things all the time. Drew wouldn't surprise me as scum here. I think I had mixed opinions of Drew's vote and play there at the time but I can definitely understand seeing that vote as bad. It's just not something that only town is likely to make a note of.

Question though, why did you want us bumbling fools who didn't notice the IC reveal/who the IC was to remain ignorant to it? What benefit does it offer town?

You want Sakura to do things to develop reads, yet you also want us bumbling fools to dance for your jollies. And what sort of usable info would you pull from this?

If players think that Skellen is unconfirmed, they will interact with her differently than they will when she's confirmed IC. So it's basically two interactions for the price of one. One interaction with unconfirmed Skellen, and one with IC Skellen. Who knows what info we would have gotten if Persivul had held back Skellen's role, but it could well have been useful. As it is, we got implosion's scumread on Skellen. Nothing about it seems noteworthy to me, but others may be able to glean something from it.

This is from a town mindset.

It's a trivial thing to fake as scum. Like, sometimes things that look like they come from a town mindset are great towntells because they're things that scum wouldn't have thought of, or they're e.g. setup-based strategic insights that scum might have avoided saying. But this paragraph is something that's really easy to come up with as scum that is putting themself in a town mindset. Because again, the actual saying and explaining of it doesn't help town at all.

Basically, his early iso is mixed to me. There's nothing really scummy in it, even! But there's nothing strongly town, just the kind of early game stuff that plenty of people are great at faking (rvs vote, 87). And 303, combined with the fact that he didn't pots for two days before 303 and hasn't posted for two days since, is just *that* bad.

[Gamma Emerald]

The train I was talking about was the one where we could work together. If we dont have common ground then thats an issue for me and needs to be addressed.

I dont know if you want me to actually say you are scum, like say those exact words, but I did sort you into 2nd from last in a game of 13, so you could infer that I think you are scum, or I could say it, which I feel like I did, when I offered to have you help us lynch yourself.

this whole argument is completely moot afaic

Btw what is your defense of your voting patterns

[implosion]

But the thing is...
I feel like Fish's been asking implo about his townread of phil for a while, specially the tr early in the game, and then implo comes and quotes a late post saying "See this is why he's town" instead of actually explaining the early townread, which feels to me like he's dodging the issue.

There are many things I have to say. Hold your horses. FF posted a hundred fucking posts in one night and I have things to do other than sit in front of this computer for seven hours straight right now typing mafia posts.

I have already explained the early townread on phil a little in 133 and it was weaker so I didn't really care to explain it in depth unless someone asked, and no one did; that post that I made explaining the later townread (547) that you're referring to was specifically me explaining why I went from a townread to calling him obvtown in 355

Does that make sense? What else is it you want explained here, exactly?