Mini Normal 2095 - Game Over!

[Chemist1422]

VC 1.7

Datisi (3)

- Tchill13, Emperor flippyNips, Iconeum

Luca Blight (3)

- Alisae, Almost50, Billy Pilgrim

Alisae (1)

- Luca Blight

Tchill13 (1)

- Klick

Not Voting (1)

- Datisi

With 9 alive, majority is 5.

Deadline:

(expired on 2019-08-28 07:00:00)

Notes

Klick is V/LA for a few days.

[Almost50]

Almost, why did 58 ping you as Town? And what do you make of her later work, following the Icon pressure?

there was a time where everything that sprung on my mind was also said by Datisi in-thread.

after having finished reading I think I TR Iconeum harder now, while -at the same town- still maintaining a TR on Datisi.

Like, seriously.. are you reading or skimming?? I don't think you asked me anything that I hadn't already mentioned!

[Luca Blight]

I'm asking for elaboration - everything you've said on Datisi so far has been vague.

[Luca Blight]

And just because you happen to share the thoughts of 58, to base a townread on it is really weak - she said nothing that hadn't already been said at this point (including by myself in 54).

[Luca Blight]

Spoiler:

========
Scum
========

Luca - His whole ISO sucks. Nothing in there is actually substanial at all. All of his reads come across as making stuff up on the fly (a lot of times when he is talking about a read, he gives himself room for said read to go either way). He's not really taking any risks and is in general playing really safe. I really want to see Luca go after something instead of just do nothing. Because a lot of what his ISO is nothing. And anything that like, remotely looks like analysis is really surface level stuff.
54 is just a gut scummy start mostly because I don't like the fact he has to feel like he has to have a stance first thing.
His shade in 85 is bad and comes across as scummy.
The Klick stance in 214 just sucks because the way he presents it, it really seems like it could go either way depending on what happens.
224 kind of just sucks. I'm not buying the "scum who is at a loss of what to do" narative at all because when I was reading that, I was generally liking that interaction with Billy.
318 is bad because its him just saying that Klick is town over and over again. The individual points aren't anything thats new. Also in the way its presented itself, I dislike this because he's just saying the samething over and over again. Like, he's trying to look like he's solving, but nothing in that post is actually adding anything new to the game. Its just non-stop praise and I don't like it.
Also apparently, accoriding to you, 325 contains content but it doesn't? Like, that can be faked.
488 is opportunistic. The narative being built here sucks. The vote is just scum.

I will summarize why this case 'fucking sucks' (to coin a phrase).

54 - This is a misrep; nowhere did I say or imply that I felt the need to have a stance (in fact I did the opposite, by saying I normally keep my cards close to my chest early on). My meta is pretty out of date but if you look at any of my previous games you'll probably find that I try and move the game out of RVS as soon as possible; I like to get down to the nitty gritty straight away. That's just how I approach the early game.

85 - I didn't throw shade at all, and the fact that Alisae has avoided my question to explain this not only shows that she fabricated it, but it's just sketchy behaviour in general.

214 - I gave a firm opinion on Klick, but obviously from my perspective it could go either way - I wasn't trying to pretend otherwise. Many times in the past I've been fooled by very convincing scum players, so I always carry around with me the thought that I could be wrong.

224 - I explained this one pretty well already; I felt like Klick was the one who actually did the test and was genuine in his intentions, while Datisi just kind of jumped on it and stole his thunder. This was the only meaningful thing she did until she was called out, so I think my comment was pretty fair.

318 - It's called Iso'ing - it's a standard practice in Mafia. I re-read the Iso giving my thoughts as they came to me, some new, some thoughts that were already established. This is also a complete contradiction to your earlier point that I'm scum because I didn't have a frm stance on Klick - make your mind up.

325 - err, I gave a read and my reasoning behind it. That is pretty much the definition of content.

488 - I will go into more detail about my Datisi progression soon, but it wasn't in the least opportunistic. I could have readily placed my vote on Datisi at any time.

[Almost50]

And just because you happen to share the thoughts of 58, to base a townread on it is really weak - she said nothing that hadn't already been said at this point (including by myself in 54).

You didn't say the Icon TR hurts!

Seriously In your post you said you got -ve vibes from Datisi while I was getting town vibes from her, so I'd still say her thoughts aligned more with mine than yours did.

[Almost50]

@Luca: Let's say we somehow agreed Datisi doesn't get lynched today. Now who would be your pick for the lynch?

[Luca Blight]

@Luca: Let's say we somehow agreed Datisi doesn't get lynched today. Now who would be your pick for the lynch?

I'll give you one guess.

[Almost50]

Not gonna happen. Trust me. Ali is not available to lynch here. Not without an explicit guilty on him.

[Luca Blight]

I'd still like more information about your thoughts on Datisi after being pressured - what specifically reinforced your Townread on her? I feel like it's important because she hadn't given much content in this game prior to this, so I want to understand exactly why you think she is Town.

[Luca Blight]

My Datisi read progression:

54 - I had slightly negative early vibes on Datisi early on; nothing significant, but I threw it out there in an attempt to get the ball rolling.

215 - I reaffirm my slightly negative view on Datisi, this time more based on the lack of content.

224 - I decide to Iso Datisi in an attempt to establish a firmer read. The context here is that I had been scumreading Flippy and close to voting him until his 'townslip', when I reviewed it, gave me pause for thought, so I decided to look in the direction of my other 'below null' read. In this post I was genuinely trying to establish whether Datisi had town motivation behind her 'test', which as I've said is the only thing of significance she had done by this point. Possibly biased by the fact I had so many TR's and so few SR's at this point, I interpreted it more likely as being scum at a loss for what to do to look Townie. Certainly I could see a mindset of 'if I make it look like I deliberately caused a townslip, I will look Townie myself'. Klick's test had a more genuine feel due to the fact he unvoted Pilgrim yet didn't immediately explain, and therefore try to take credit for the test.

By this point in the game I'm also becoming increasingly aware that Datisi is ignoring everything I'm saying about her. Incidentally, I read in the scum chat of one her previous games where she asked her partner if she should ignore the scumreads she was getting - this gave me a slight ping, but I wanted to keep it to myself at this point to see how it developed.

349 and 351 - I thought it didn't quite add up that she had given no signs of scumreading me at all (quite the contrary, in fact) and yet now she was saying my posts have been fake the whole time.

409 - I felt this was a bit ridiculous from Datisi. Fair enough she's being pressed to expand on a read that she isn't entirely sure on, but she really did just go through my posts and nitpick the most insignificant things. In some of them, she ignored the entire content of the post and marked in red something insignificant to the meaning of what was said like 'This is a work in progress'. It felt a little bit desperate and not very sincere.

488 - I was reading back on Datisi's work and really didn't like her Kop vote or her reads list, for reasons already explained. Kop was L-1 and inactive, while there appeared to be interest in a Datisi lynch, so why would I, as Town, not place my vote here now? In case you're wondering why I hadn't earlier, it was because I had been multi-tasking while phone-posting, meaning I hadn't had a chance to completely digest what had happened. When I had a bit of free time and looked back over it again, I felt pretty good about putting my vote there.

As of this moment I still haven't fully digested what happened recently with Datisi/Ali. I'm going to look back over this in a bit.

[Almost50]

I'd still like more information about your thoughts on Datisi after being pressured - what specifically reinforced your Townread on her? I feel like it's important because she hadn't given much content in this game prior to this, so I want to understand exactly why you think she is Town.

As I said.. I may be biased. I had been in that exact situation with Iconeum before.. and more than once, and every time it turns out we're both town. I did explain it, and I did say I could be wrong because I am biased but that's how I feel.

[Luca Blight]

I'd still like more information about your thoughts on Datisi after being pressured - what specifically reinforced your Townread on her? I feel like it's important because she hadn't given much content in this game prior to this, so I want to understand exactly why you think she is Town.

As I said.. I may be biased. I had been in that exact situation with Iconeum before.. and more than once, and every time it turns out we're both town. I did explain it, and I did say I could be wrong because I am biased but that's how I feel.

I can understand why you're Townreading Icon for this, but to townread Datisi for it makes no sense unless there's something she particularly did or said that made you think she is Town.

Sympathy, yes, but Townread? I don't get it.

[Almost50]

Maybe I'm mixing sympathy with a TR, but you're forgetting about the other factor now: The speed her wagon built up vs how slow Kop's wagon formed.

[Luca Blight]

Maybe I'm mixing sympathy with a TR, but you're forgetting about the other factor now: The speed her wagon built up vs how slow Kop's wagon formed.

How is this relevant, given Kop was inactive, and given he was replaced by Ali who you seem to Townread?

[Luca Blight]

And since that Datisi wagon there has been a pretty big tidal shift as well, which suggests a struggle.

Btw, I can see scum motivation behind Ali regardless of Datisi's alignment; obviously if they're both scum then the motivation is obvious. If Ali is scum and Datisi is Town then either way the result would turn out pretty well for scum; I'm lynched and then Datisi is vulnerable, and if Datisi is lynched and flips Town then Ali can continue the tunnel on me with added enthusiasm. I could imagine this scenario is a game where there are so few mislynch targets available.

[Almost50]

I am not saying Kop was scum. I am saying this town isn't the type of town to rush for a wagon. That is what Kop's wagon tells me.
Now why would that mentality suddenly change with Datisi? It's not like we have a Cop Guilty on her. Right? So it follows that wagon was more likely supported by scum. Scum are usually reluctant to join wagons on an inactive because and inactive is no threat to them. It's easier to line them up for a mislynch down the road than to flip them on D1. Scum join wagons with cases on them, and most likely cases that have been pushed by others (i.e. by town) so that when the lynchee flips town they can go back and blame that townie and get them mislynched next.

[Almost50]

And since that Datisi wagon there has been a pretty big tidal shift as well, which suggests a struggle.

Btw, I can see scum motivation behind Ali regardless of Datisi's alignment; obviously if they're both scum then the motivation is obvious. If Ali is scum and Datisi is Town then either way the result would turn out pretty well for scum; I'm lynched and then Datisi is vulnerable, and if Datisi is lynched and flips Town then Ali can continue the tunnel on me with added enthusiasm. I could imagine this scenario is a game where there are so few mislynch targets available.

Well, knowing Ali I can assure you this is not how he plays scum. I suggest you do a quick meta check on him. He's been active again of late (after he had not played for a while) so you can certainly find recent examples of his play as either alignment.

[Luca Blight]

I am not saying Kop was scum. I am saying this town isn't the type of town to rush for a wagon. That is what Kop's wagon tells me.
Now why would that mentality suddenly change with Datisi? It's not like we have a Cop Guilty on her. Right? So it follows that wagon was more likely supported by scum. Scum are usually reluctant to join wagons on an inactive because and inactive is no threat to them. It's easier to line them up for a mislynch down the road than to flip them on D1. Scum join wagons with cases on them, and most likely cases that have been pushed by others (i.e. by town) so that when the lynchee flips town they can go back and blame that townie and get them mislynched next.

I know if I were scum this game and the Kop slot was Town, I would have been licking my lips. I would not have requested replacement for him. I know the fact that I'm the one pointing this out opens it up for WIFOM, but I feel like it would have been counter-intuitive scum play.

The Kop wagon wasn't rushed because he made a grand total of 2 posts the whole game. It was pointless from my persepctive to vote an inactive player. You're right that an inactive player isn't a threat to scum, but a replacement potentially is (see my point above?)

I agree that scum join wagons with cases on them - see Datisi being 'talked into' joining the Kop wagon?

I was the last one on the Datisi wagon, yet I was the one with the biggest case on her, so that doesn't really apply to me.

What do you think of my explanation for voting Datisi above?

[Almost50]

In fact let me help you some.. THIS is a recent scum game of Ali's

P-edit: Why are you interpreting everything I say as if I'm saying "you're scum because of this"? Is it because I'm currently voting you? I am still trying to figure you out and you're not in "imminent danger" still. (I mean, sure.. this is a bloody MICRO so OF COURSE every vote counts, but by standards of a Micro L-2 is still not dangerous. Consuder yourself @L-4 .. with 5 votes on you in a 17 players game)

[Almost50]

I was the last one on the Datisi wagon, yet I was the one with the biggest case on her, so that doesn't really apply to me.

I am referring specifically to this line. It feels as if you're preemptively defending yourself from being "scum who joined a wagon based on someone else's case". Or did I read that wrong?

[Luca Blight]

Presuming Datisi is up for voting me, I would be L-1, so pretty much in danger, I'd say. Any thoughts on what I said, anyway?

I haven't yet clicked on the link you have so kindly presented, but I'd be interested to know how you feel Ali would have approached the game had she replaced in as scum?

P,edit: I am being scumread it seems mainly due to my Datisi vote, so it's not really 'preemptive' defence.

[Almost50]

Frankly, I am starting to think you might be town after all. Your tone is more relaxed now that it was when I told you to cool down.

UNVOTE:

We're in no rush, and I need to reread.. maybe??

[Almost50]

I haven't yet clicked on the link you have so kindly presented, but I'd be interested to know how you feel Ali would have approached the game had she replaced in as scum?

'e would've probably made a trolly entrance, I think.

[Iconeum]

Alisae - either you're playing some convoluted long con or you're Town, you had a perfect opportunity to jump onto my wagon
Billy, Klick, A50
Tchill
---
Emperor - Icon is also around here somewhere but I don't know what to make of him rn
---
Luca

I agree with you on Ali here. If I hadn't called you out and pushed you, would you be townreading me more?

Ali, I have great respect for you as a player so if you think I (and the rest of the wagon) think we are wrong, disprove it please

also dude
where does this respect come from???????
I'm not all that amazing (I am fun tho) and I have a greater reputation as a mod then a player.

From past game.

And your Datisi read doesn’t make sense to me; I would expect a townie in your position to have at least some suspicion of that slot, yet you seem to have zero.

Also agree with this. More on this later.

Spoiler: Ali's 636

========
Scum
========

Luca - His whole ISO sucks. Nothing in there is actually substanial at all. All of his reads come across as making stuff up on the fly (a lot of times when he is talking about a read, he gives himself room for said read to go either way). He's not really taking any risks and is in general playing really safe. I really want to see Luca go after something instead of just do nothing. Because a lot of what his ISO is nothing. And anything that like, remotely looks like analysis is really surface level stuff.
54 is just a gut scummy start mostly because I don't like the fact he has to feel like he has to have a stance first thing.
His shade in 85 is bad and comes across as scummy.
The Klick stance in 214 just sucks because the way he presents it, it really seems like it could go either way depending on what happens.
224 kind of just sucks. I'm not buying the "scum who is at a loss of what to do" narative at all because when I was reading that, I was generally liking that interaction with Billy.
318 is bad because its him just saying that Klick is town over and over again. The individual points aren't anything thats new. Also in the way its presented itself, I dislike this because he's just saying the samething over and over again. Like, he's trying to look like he's solving, but nothing in that post is actually adding anything new to the game. Its just non-stop praise and I don't like it.
Also apparently, accoriding to you, 325 contains content but it doesn't? Like, that can be faked.
488 is opportunistic. The narative being built here sucks. The vote is just scum.

Icon - I like Datisi so I don't like how Icon is pushing it. I hate how I'm immediately attacked in 593 while I'm catching up. I also kinda feel like Icon is definitely trying to control the game in a way I really don't like. Like, the threat in 618 kinda comes across as "how dare you question my authority." I state a scumread on Luca and that I'm not completely buying the Datisi wagon and I'm being attacked for it because its "not current" like????? Also, I'm really not buying how his confidence level goes from "maybe we're all town" to "I have this super confident read on Datisi. I'm using words to make it look like I WAS uncertain to make it look like I'm trying to solve, but I actually just had this really confident scumread the whole time hahahaha." Not to mention what the original fuss was over, is completely irrelevant. "Devoid of Life" and "Fake" who cares they both mean the samething. It seemed just really semantic to me.

OK. Now that I know what pings you about Luca, why do you think Icon is scum rather than town making a bad push?

P.S. I am extra careful with icon because we do tend to hard tunnel each other as town .. both of us. So beare with me on this one, please.

My Icon read is mostly based on the fact that while I was catching up, I felt like he was threatening me instead of trying to figure out my motivations in a less threatening way. If I didn’t feel like I was being threatened, then I would have probably just said that the read was PoE or just wait a day or 2 later where the read would

eventually

sort itself out.

Ali, I was reading you while you were catching up, and from the very first few posts I had a feeling you were gonna step in and protect Datisi. I just knew it. They way you handled the current gamestate (focusing on Luca rather then the actual current wagon) didn't feel right to me, and you said 'i'm caught up' without ever even touching on Datisi. I was mildly annoyed by this, and I started calling you out.

When you then started shifting perspectives and onto a scumread from me, I tend to overreact but also because I saw it coming from a mile away. You think I'm trying to control town? Well, maybe I am. I'm that kind of player. Especially in games where I feel I'm

really

into, I tend to try and control gamestate. Also I think I do this way more often as town then as scum, because of the confidence it takes.

My main issue is how easily you brushed the Datisi wagon aside, and I strongly felt that it could easily be just you/Datisi for scumteam.
However, I'm working really hard on my tunneling problems that I have and I'm open to anyone's suggestions so let's do this