Mini Theme 2094 : Undertale Semi-Open: Game over!

[volxen]

First. And I am masons with Chennisden.

HURT: Dr Easy Bake

Someone sheep me on DEB.

[volxen]

I don’t think that’s true. Sparing is like doing the scums job for them. We are removing the townies player then they have a chance to remove the second towniest player. It accelerates the race to the bottom which is typically why most scum teams win.

After rereading the setup, I think that the Pacifist route (with the option to switch to the Neutral route) is better than the Genocide route (with the option to switch to the Neutral route). As Chennisden pointed out, a lot of scum games are won because there were enough scummy townies for scum to get the number of mislynches that they need to win, as opposed to them winning because they were all top-tier townreads. I think in general it's more difficult to become a consensus townread as scum than it is to push a mislynch on a scummy towny player. The Genocide route is essentially a standard a game of Mafia, where scum can win when the core is reached as long as there are four scummy town players that get mislynched. With the Pacifist route scum can only win when the core is reached if both scum are among the four or five players that are spared.

And considering that we don't have players like RadiantCowbells/Auro/Flavor Leaf/Mastina/etc. in this playerlist, I don't think that it's going to be easy for both scum to be townread enough to get spared. Especially considering that one of the four or five people that are spared should be the PR (although I don't think that the PR should come out today -- I think that they shouldn't come out until day 2 or day 3, and the person that is spared today should be a consensus townread). And if there is a PR CC or concerns later down the line that one scum has been spared, we can always still switch to the Neutral route.

I also think that Chennisden is likely town. I've played with town!Chennisden somewhat recently in two different games (Nomination Mafia and Starcraft III), and I don't think that scum!Chennisden would have the confidence to immediately come out of the gates at the beginning of day one, self-heal himself, and strongly push for his own slot to be the first slot that is spared. Beyond that I think that his push for the Pacifist->Neutral route is towny and I agree with him in that we should definitely spare someone rather than kill someone today.

[volxen]

HURT: Popsofctown

HEAL: Chennisden

Chennisden is at L-2.

[volxen]

I mean if it is a chennis/me team, it would mean that five dumb townies decided to speed-spare scum without any scum help... so, unless you actively scumread something chennis posted, that's pretty tinfoily.

Chennisden is still my strongest townread from day one so I don’t think that a Chennisden/SS scumteam is at all likely. But I don’t think that Chenn’s wagon composition in and of itself is a good reason to rule out that possibility. Chenn was self-voting, and Oversoul had a clear agenda in mind with respect to his vote on Chenn (he was baiting people to put Chenn up to L-1 so he could quickhammer him and “lock him in the shadow realm”). Oversoul was scumreading Chenn, so it was really only four people on his wagon that were townreading him (Elements, Adorable, Volxen, and Gamma Emerald). Even if Chenn were scum, I’m not sure that his partner would want to quickly jump on his wagon (his wagon built up very fast) and tie themselves to Chenn – this is similar to a point that you brought up on day one about your own heal wagon (44).

In any case I do think that Chenn is town, and I think that all of the voters on his wagon (minus Oversoul) are likely town as well. Elements and Adorable were both quick to jump on Chenn’s heal wagon as the second and third voters respectively, and I don’t think that scum would want to help town!Chenn’s heal wagon gain momentum that early on on day one, when there was still the possibility of getting one of their own spared. In Oversoul’s case it’s different because he clearly was planning to quickhammer Chenn as soon as he got up to L-1, which is evidenced by him baiting both Gamma and DEB to put Chenn up to L-1. He claims he did this because he scumreads Chenn and he wants to prove that Chenn is scum via sparing him and then switching to the Neutral route. The logic checks out in that if we spared Chenn and then spared the PR, switching to the Neutral route would confirm Chenn’s alignment since the PR would be confirmed town and the number of scum among the spared people would be revealed once we reach the core. However, it was still anti-town to quickhammer Chenn and end day one that abruptly – Chenn was very likely to still be spared on day one if we had played closer to the deadline. All that quickhammer really did was end the day abruptly, and it significantly limited Chenn’s content in the game before he got spared. There is potential scum motivation in that – if Oversoul is scum and Chenn is town and Oversoul believes that he cannot shift momentum away from Chenn’s heal wagon, then it benefits him to end the day early and limit Chenn’s impact on the game if he believes that he is going to be spared anyways.

And now there’s the fact that Oversoul has admitted to fakeclaiming PR and has forced the real PR to out themselves in the process (I’m assuming that Chemist is the real PR and there is not going to be yet another PR claim). There is potential scum-movation in that as well – Chennisden’s original plan (179) was for himself to be spared on day one, a consensus townread to be spared on day two, and the PR to be spared on day three (assuming no CC). If there was still a strong consensus townread around on day four, this would give us the option to win outright on day four via the Pacifist route. By Oversoul fakeclaiming PR and forcing the real PR to come out on day two, it’s now more difficult to win via the Pacifist route, because sparing the PR today rather than on day three means that scum get’s to kill another consensus townread player before we can spare again, limiting the selection of players that will be around to spare on day three and day four. And as Adorable pointed out (296), since the PR won’t be around on night two scum has free reign to kill whoever they want tonight. A consensus townread player (e.g., DDL or Elements) that might have overwise been spared today might not be around on day three. So if Oversoul is scum and he believes that he cannot win if town follows the Pacifist route, it makes sense for him to take action to try and force town to switch to the Neutral route.

All that being said I don’t think that we should give up on trying to follow the Pacifist route to victory this early on. We should spare Chemist today and then we can spare one of DDL or Elements on day three. On day four we can re-evaluate based on who is still alive, but we don’t need to switch to the Neutral route before that point because at least one of our two top consensus townreads (DDL and Elements) will still be around on day three.

[volxen]

HEAL: Something_Smart

I believe I can sort chennis in the spared PT if it comes to that.

This is a moot point now since Chemist has been forced to out himself as the PR and we are sparing him today, but I wouldn't have been comfortable with sparing you today given how eager you have been to get yourself spared since the beginning of day one. I realize that Chennisden was even more eager than you to get himself spared on day one, but the difference is that I have multiple completed games with Chennisden where he was town and I am confident that he is town in this game based on his day one play and the fact that he was transparently towny in a lot of his posts. You and I do have one completed game together, which was Mini Normal 2067: Musicals. That was the game where you and I were both town, I was mislynched on day one, you were the vigilante, I told you to vigkill Slaxx (who also turned out to be town) on night one and you did so, and you were nightkilled on night one. I was mostly null on your slot in that game -- I actually thought you might have been scum in that game given how you somewhat lightly defended me when almost everyone else wanted me lynched (i.e., I thought you might have been scum staying off of my wagon to look good because you lightly defended me but didn't really try to dismantle my wagon). I'm completely null on your slot in this game currently. Maybe you are easy to read for people that are very familiar with you, but I find you hard to read, especially since a lot of your content is related to mechanics/setup (though I tend to talk a lot about mechanics/setup myself as well).

[volxen]

Elements is getting town read alot and I wonder if Chemist is allowed to protect himself. Maybe we could spare Elements today, Chemist protects himself tonight and he gets spared next day. If Chemist is not allowed to protect himself, then Chemist should get spared.

No, Chemist cannot protect himself. His PR (Toriel) is similar to a standard doctor PR that can only protect other players:

Toriel: As long as no player has been Killed, Toriel can protect another player from a kill each night before the Core is reached. If Toriel protects a player from a kill in this way, she can no longer use her ability.

[volxen]

@Oversoul, Do you have any previous completed games with Chennisden (particularly games where Chennisden was town), or is this game your first time playing with him?

[volxen]

Yeah I intentionally did shit-all in Musicals.

Do you think my eagerness to get spared is at all related to my alignment?

I don't know if your eagerness to get spared is AI for you, that was essentially the point of my post about you. You have motivation to get yourself spared regardless of your alignment. You said that a good reason to spare you is because you believe that you can read Chennisden in the spare PT. If you are town that's a fair point for you to bring up given your history with Chennisden, but I don't think that reasoning for sparing yourself in and of itself is necessarily town-indicative for you. I mean I could push for my own slot to be spared based on the same reasoning: that I have a fair amount of experience with Chennisden, and while I was strongly townreading him on day one, if I were spared and able to interact with him in the spare PT I would be able to get a stronger read on him one way or another. And that likewise Chennisden would be able to get a stronger read on me through our interactions in the spare PT. But I realize that I'm not a consensus townread, which is why I haven't pushed for my own slot to be spared as ability to read Chennisden in the spare PT isn't what should take precedence when deciding who to spare.

You came out at the beginning of day two and pushed for your own slot to be spared based on your ability to read Chennisden in the spare PT (217). You knew that you weren’t a consensus townread, whereas other slots (e.g., Elements) were strongly townread on day one. Why did you prioritize your ability to read Chennisden in the spare PT over sparing a consensus townread?

[volxen]

@Oversoul, Do you have any previous completed games with Chennisden (particularly games where Chennisden was town), or is this game your first time playing with him?

First time playing with him. Why does this matter?

It gives me a baseline to work with with respect to sorting your slot based on how you are reading Chennisden's slot. If you are town then you and I have completely different reads on Chennisden, and I'm trying to make sense of that. I think that Chennisden was transparently towny on day one, and I think that this is something that people who are familiar with him in particular are likely to have picked up on.

[volxen]

I’m going back and forth on that. I think if he is town he played yesterday entirely wrong. It doesn’t quite make sense to me that someone who thinks they are so town and can win the game would advocate leaving on Day 1 where they will have little impact on the rest of the game.

I hammered him because I think less info is oddly actually better for the town in this setup

.

How does ending the day early with less information benefit town?

[volxen]

Volxen what do you think we should do? Shoot for Pacifist or shoot for Neutral?

My stance since the beginning of day one has been that we should follow the Pacifist route to victory if at all possible. It would have been better to have the PR come out on day three so that we could have spared a strong consensus townread today, but I think that we should still follow the Pacifist route to victory as long as there are still strong consensus townreads around.

Also, you didn’t answer my question:

I’m going back and forth on that. I think if he is town he played yesterday entirely wrong. It doesn’t quite make sense to me that someone who thinks they are so town and can win the game would advocate leaving on Day 1 where they will have little impact on the rest of the game.

I hammered him because I think less info is oddly actually better for the town in this setup

.

How does ending the day early with less information benefit town?

[volxen]

Then Heal Chennis

I think town list is Volxen, Chennis at the top followed by DDL and Ele

Why did you call me town this early on on day one? At the time I had really only made one post with serious content (175). Chennisden townread me (179 over that one post, but he has history with me whereas you do not. Usually people unfamiliar with me have a hard time reading me, especially during the early stages of the game, as I am rarely “obvious town” on day one. And I had also just put your “secret” scumread (Chennisden) up to L-2 as well (176) – so what was it in particular that made you think that I am town at that stage of the game?

[volxen]

@mod V/LA until Monday, 8/12/19

[volxen]

Then Heal Chennis

I think town list is Volxen, Chennis at the top followed by DDL and Ele

Why did you call me town this early on on day one? At the time I had really only made one post with serious content (175). Chennisden townread me (179 over that one post, but he has history with me whereas you do not. Usually people unfamiliar with me have a hard time reading me, especially during the early stages of the game, as I am rarely “obvious town” on day one. And I had also just put your “secret” scumread (Chennisden) up to L-2 as well (176) – so what was it in particular that made you think that I am town at that stage of the game?

I decline to answer.

I asked you a legitimate question that would help me (and probably others) to sort your alignment and you refuse to answer. Why? You’ve suggested that you are going to be coming out at the beginning of day three with confident reads (i.e., 431). If you are town then the only reason I can think of with respect to why you wouldn't want to reveal/explain your reads (particularly your townreads) right now is that doing so might help scum to make a more informed decision regarding who they nightkill. But if that is your stance, then why have you been questioning other people on their townreads while being mostly aloof on your own townreads (except for calling Nips townie in 488)? If the concern is that revealing your townreads will give scum more insight into who is "obvious town" and that said information might impact the nightkill decision, then if anything it would make more sense for you to encourage everyone to wait until day three before divulging their townreads, no? Except that isn't what you have been doing. You want everyone else to talk about their townreads, while simultaneously acting as though you can't afford to do so yourself because scum is going to use your readslist to help them decide who to nightkill. And on top of that from the discussions that have already taken place today I think that it's fairly clear who is being widely townread and who isn't, so this whole stance of "you guys talk about your townreads and I will reveal mine on day three" that you are taking doesn't really make any sense at all.

You gave me a very questionable townread at the beginning of day one and I called you out on it. Especially considering that you called out DDL over doing the same thing towards your own slot (341), I expected you to give me a proper response, not dodge the issue.

[volxen]

HEAL: DEB

What makes you so confident that DEB is town? This was your last readslist:

Ok, then who are your town reads?

DDL, Elements, chennis, maybe Adorable. Maybe you but I still want an answer to 289.

DEB wasn’t in your list of townreads at that point. Are you saying that DEB is a stronger townread for you now compared to Elements and Adorable?

[volxen]

I am by no means confident that DEB is town. I should hardly see why I'd have to be to make a vote that is by no means getting near a spare anytime soon.

I think a spare wagon on a quieter player like him could be very illuminating in a number of ways, primarily to shift the focus off of the louder players who have been dominating discussion.

Did SS town read on chennis all of a sudden change on day 3?

No it hasn't, I still have Elements town because of chennis.

But like I said, right now discussion is being dominated by a few people at least one of whom has a very incorrect grasp on the gamestate. So I don't want to rush the day because we need to end this day with more information than we ended the previous two with.

And poking and prodding at people by making a weird heal like DEB is a good way to get people to start talking.

I mean, why heal DEB if you aren't townreading him? Especially when two people that you have listed as strong townreads (Elements and Adorable) are still in the game? And beyond that... what's the point in healing DEB if he is unlikely to ever be spared? You are acting as though you healing him is somehow helping to advance the gamestate, and I don't see how that's the case. If you are wanting to pursue the Pacifist route to victory, then you should be pushing for a realistic spare.

And if you are wanting to engage the quieter slots, then why not directly ask them questions? That's far more effective than just dropping a random heal vote on DEB.

[volxen]

@Oversoul... you still haven't answered my question:

Then Heal Chennis

I think town list is Volxen, Chennis at the top followed by DDL and Ele

Why did you call me town this early on on day one? At the time I had really only made one post with serious content (175). Chennisden townread me (179 over that one post, but he has history with me whereas you do not. Usually people unfamiliar with me have a hard time reading me, especially during the early stages of the game, as I am rarely “obvious town” on day one. And I had also just put your “secret” scumread (Chennisden) up to L-2 as well (176) – so what was it in particular that made you think that I am town at that stage of the game?

I decline to answer.

I asked you a legitimate question that would help me (and probably others) to sort your alignment and you refuse to answer. Why? You’ve suggested that you are going to be coming out at the beginning of day three with confident reads (i.e., 431). If you are town then the only reason I can think of with respect to why you wouldn't want to reveal/explain your reads (particularly your townreads) right now is that doing so might help scum to make a more informed decision regarding who they nightkill. But if that is your stance, then why have you been questioning other people on their townreads while being mostly aloof on your own townreads (except for calling Nips townie in 488)? If the concern is that revealing your townreads will give scum more insight into who is "obvious town" and that said information might impact the nightkill decision, then if anything it would make more sense for you to encourage everyone to wait until day three before divulging their townreads, no? Except that isn't what you have been doing. You want everyone else to talk about their townreads, while simultaneously acting as though you can't afford to do so yourself because scum is going to use your readslist to help them decide who to nightkill. And on top of that from the discussions that have already taken place today I think that it's fairly clear who is being widely townread and who isn't, so this whole stance of "you guys talk about your townreads and I will reveal mine on day three" that you are taking doesn't really make any sense at all.

You gave me a very questionable townread at the beginning of day one and I called you out on it. Especially considering that you called out DDL over doing the same thing towards your own slot (341), I expected you to give me a proper response, not dodge the issue.

[volxen]

Intent to hammer Elements

I think that sparing Elements is the right move for today. Elements, do you have anything else that you want to say?

[volxen]

Intent to hammer Elements

I think that sparing Elements is the right move for today. Elements, do you have anything else that you want to say?

I am curious why you are so willing to send Elements, despite wanting my answer and not getting it? You, along with everyone else, but especially you, seemed to be angry with how fast I had been moving the game, but now you are ok with moving the game fast and barely having any discussion?

I mean I had brought up the question three different times and you still hadn’t answered it, so it was clear that you were deliberately choosing not to answer it. Yes, I am still skeptical of your slot for a variety of reasons – the fact that you’ve been pushing Chennisden (my strongest townread) as scum for most of the game, the quickhammer on Chennisden without giving him the chance to share his final thoughts, the PR fakeclaim on day 2 when day 3 would have been the optimal time for the PR to get spared (even with your “big revelation” sparing the PR on day 3 is better than doing so on day 2), and the early day one townread on my slot that you didn’t explain until now. None of that changes the fact that I believe that sparing Elements is the optimal play for today. If we were lynching someone today then I would want more discussion, but I don’t think that’s as necessary if we are sparing Elements.

[volxen]

@Oversoul... you still haven't answered my question:

Then Heal Chennis

I think town list is Volxen, Chennis at the top followed by DDL and Ele

Why did you call me town this early on on day one? At the time I had really only made one post with serious content (175). Chennisden townread me (179 over that one post, but he has history with me whereas you do not. Usually people unfamiliar with me have a hard time reading me, especially during the early stages of the game, as I am rarely “obvious town” on day one. And I had also just put your “secret” scumread (Chennisden) up to L-2 as well (176) – so what was it in particular that made you think that I am town at that stage of the game?

I decline to answer.

I asked you a legitimate question that would help me (and probably others) to sort your alignment and you refuse to answer. Why? You’ve suggested that you are going to be coming out at the beginning of day three with confident reads (i.e., 431). If you are town then the only reason I can think of with respect to why you wouldn't want to reveal/explain your reads (particularly your townreads) right now is that doing so might help scum to make a more informed decision regarding who they nightkill. But if that is your stance, then why have you been questioning other people on their townreads while being mostly aloof on your own townreads (except for calling Nips townie in 488)? If the concern is that revealing your townreads will give scum more insight into who is "obvious town" and that said information might impact the nightkill decision, then if anything it would make more sense for you to encourage everyone to wait until day three before divulging their townreads, no? Except that isn't what you have been doing. You want everyone else to talk about their townreads, while simultaneously acting as though you can't afford to do so yourself because scum is going to use your readslist to help them decide who to nightkill. And on top of that from the discussions that have already taken place today I think that it's fairly clear who is being widely townread and who isn't, so this whole stance of "you guys talk about your townreads and I will reveal mine on day three" that you are taking doesn't really make any sense at all.

You gave me a very questionable townread at the beginning of day one and I called you out on it. Especially considering that you called out DDL over doing the same thing towards your own slot (341), I expected you to give me a proper response, not dodge the issue.

I called you town hoping that you would be killed because I had a feeling that you would be hard to read. I still think you are hard to read. I wish you would delve as deep into other players as you are into me. I did that with all of those reads in that quoted post. The speed with which Elements got spared makes me question the legitimacy of his wagon. But we will see! I would very much like to be wrong.

People that haven't played with me before often have a difficult time reading me. But if you are town, why would you think that falsely listing me as a townread (when in reality you were unsure about my slot) would make me more likely to be nightkilled? I had only made one serious post on day one, and the fact that I am hard to read/not "obvtown" would have made me a sub-optimal nightkill.

[volxen]

I ain't voting anywhere until I figure out why that kill happened.

Unexpected? At least that was my first reaction.

I think the explanation for the Nips nightkill is rather straightforward. If Adorable is town (which I believe that she is), she would likely be a high priority nightkill target due to several people listing her as a townread, but scum has to consider that she is also very likely to be protected with Elements (who I also believe is town) being spared and immune to the nightkill if he is town. Nips was a player that was getting somewhat townread but he was not the most likely person to be protected, thus making him a "safe" nightkill.

[volxen]

Volxen, opinion on SS?

I’ve been busy IRL and I’m low on sleep at the moment, so I’ll elaborate more on my thoughts on SS in a later post. But in short, I don’t think that pushing for your own slot to be spared in and of itself is scummy, but I think that SS’s

reasoning

for pushing for his own slot to be spared (that he could read Chennisden in the spare PT and vice versa) is sketchy. Especially considering that he had all of Elements/DDL/Adorable as townreads, and Elements in particular was already townread a lot by the start of day two, yet SS started off day two pushing for his own slot to be spared. If SS is town, I think that he would realize the importance of sparing consensus townreads before they can be nightkilled, and that that’s far important than sparing someone based on their supposed ability to read the other spared player in the spare PT. I mean Chennisden was only spared in the first place on day one because he was the most townread player in the game, and it’s really only been Oversoul who has been calling him scum. So why push yourself as the optimal day two spare on the grounds that you can read Chennisden in the spare PT, when almost everyone is townreading him to begin with? It doesn’t make sense, especially when you take into account that SS said that he has a solid town game (241) and yet he thinks that the best use of his slot is sorting Chennisden in the spare PT, rather than staying in the game longer so he can sort everyone else and have more of an impact on the game.

I’m strongly townreading Chennisden, but I also think that SS’s argument for why he and Chennisden couldn’t possibly be scum together (that they can’t be scum together because SS didn’t heal-vote Chennisden) is equally sketchy as well. There are a number of legitimate reasons why scum would want to avoid heal-voting their partner, and he used this argument of Chennisden/SS being ruled out as a scumteam to further justify pushing for his own slot to be spared on day two (258) (if he is scum then he was taking advantage of the Oversoul vs Chemist PR dispute at the time to try and get his slot spared).

I believe that all of {Chennisden, Elements, Adorable} are town, which means that the scumteam is two out of {SS, DEB, Oversoul}. And regarding today, I think that we should spare Adorable and continue on the Pacifist route.

[volxen]

HEAL: Adorable

[volxen]

@Elements, I already gave my consent for releasing the scum PT in the dead thread. Are you good with having our scum PT released?

Also, great game everyone! And you did an excellent job, Elements!

And yes, Adorable, you were exactly right about you being spared to set you up as a mislynch, except it was me who set you up, not Oversoul. I elaborated a lot more on my thoughts on this game in the dead thread, but the gist of it is that I didn't think that I could get any of {SS, DEB, Oversoul} to heal-vote me, so the next best thing was for me to push for your spare to set you up as a mislynch after the core was formed. I knew that anyone who thought that I was scum would think that you were my partner.

[volxen]

To @Something_Smart, regarding his reason for scumreading me:

like, perhaps the plan was adorable deepwolves and presumably volxen maybe flips and like that's an avenue to push me, or to get me off balance at least.

Is volxen's scumgame that bad? I seriously doubt a volxen/Adorable team would count on Adorable to deepwolf.

Wow so mean.

I didn't really put a lot of effort into getting townread. Hyperposting is usually required (regardless of alignment) to be a top-tier townread, and I don't usually hyperpost as either alignment. Even as town my playstyle doesn't usually lead to being mass townread. This is why a lot of people have a hard time reading me, especially people playing with me for the first time. On some level I can relate to Oversoul here, because I've had many instances where I've been incorrectly scumread as town because people simply didn't understand why I was doing what I was doing.

Like take SS for example. He was right about me being scum, but his reasoning for calling me scum was in reality NAI for me. The conclusion that I came to when I explained why Nips rather than Adorable was nightkilled is a conclusion that anyone closely following the game could easily come to. Everything that I said in that post was factually true: 1) Chemist had Adorable high up on his readslist, so she was objectively likely to be protected from scum's POV assuming that she is town, 2) Adorable was townread by a lot of people (Elements, SS, DDL, Nips, Chemist), and 3) Nips was townread by some players (DDL and Oversoul) but he was not as widely townread as Adorable, which made him an objectively safer nightkill compared to Adorable, especially when Chemist's readlist is taken into account (again, assuming that both of them are town). Thus, it was a reasonable conclusion to come to just using the publicly available information in the game thread. SS was insinuating that I couldn't have possibly come to that conclusion from an uninformed (i.e., town) perspective, which is just not true.

Also, Chennisden, who was town, basically came to the exact same conclusion that I came to (in the spare PT) with respect to why Nips, rather than Adorable, was nightkilled:

im not discounting a deepwolf but i dont think it's adorable so

scum should know that they can't kill adorable because town has repeatedly called her town

and its kinda obv that chemist would heal her. S_S if ur town can u stop looking into the kill so much

[volxen]

I thought this setup would be awesome. For the most part it seemed awesome.

I agree, it played out well. It put to rest a lot of my fears that pacifist is a dominant strategy.

I don't think that the Pacifist route is dominant or game-breaking, but I do think that it is pro-scum in some very subtle/psychological ways:

I was thinking "wow maybe xyzzy is right and games don't need deadlines" when all the days finished in the first third of deadline.

Then this lylo happened

It's very interesting how everyone was willing to end the days very quickly whenever we were going to spare someone, but when someone has to be lynched town decides to play up until the deadline. At least in this particular game I think that is also a way in which the Pacifist route benefited me and my partner: the game moved so fast because everyone more-or-less agreed on all of the consensus townreads (Chennisden, Elements, DDL, and Adorable). Most of the days ended very quickly with minimal information (compared to if each day were played out until the deadline), and that usually benefits scum rather than town. The game is only 31 pages long and we are at the very end of four-player mylo! A lot of games would be at 100+ pages by this stage of the game.

This is one of those very subtle reasons why I think the Pacifist route might be more pro-scum than people give it credit for. Psychologically, I think that on some level people are

much

more OK with speeding through a day if someone is going to be spared as opposed to if someone is going to be lynched. I suspect that if town had followed the Genocide route and lynched someone each day, we probably would have played much closer to the deadline on each day, and the game would be a lot longer than 31 pages long by this stage of the game. Between that, flips from lynched players, and the LOVE mechanic, town would have a

LOT

more information to go on right now. That's definitely some food for thought.

Mechanically speaking I don't think that the Pacifist route is scum-sided, but I think it benefits scum in very subtle/psychological ways that are not necessarily obvious at first. Sparing people vs lynching people really does completely change the dynamics of the game.

[volxen]

Really WP though Elements. Volxen/elements also was not a very high equity team

Why did you think that Elements could only be scum with SS? What ruled out a Volxen/Elements scumteam in your mind? It's interesting because I also ended up winning Chain of Command 2 as scum because people thought that my slot couldn't have been scum with Saudade.

[volxen]

I think if like town, including myself, centered their game less around my slot, we could've won though.

Yes, it was interesting how the game was really centered around both you and Oversoul. We did kill GE in part because of what you said about him being obvtown, but we killed both DDL and Nips in part to isolate Oversoul.

Really though, what Oversoul did as town wasn't THAT out there. Now when you compare it to what town!Liger_Zero did in Starcraft III, with his fake innocent result on scum!Wisdom. Now THAT, and the fact that he managed to get out of being lynched, was just crazy. That was like the ultimate mislynch that got away from and my scumbuddies.

[volxen]

I WHITE KNIGHTED HIM SO HARD

It was so ironic how you were almost single-handedly responsible for stopping Liger_Zero's lynch from going through (Cerebus was going to hammer Liger_Zero until you asked him to hold off), and yet a lot of people still thought that you were a deep wolf despite agreeing with your assessment that Liger_Zero was town.

[volxen]

I give Pops a 10/10 on both her modding

AND

on her trolling of Oversoul in the dead thread.

Thanks for running this setup Pops! I still hope that I get to be Undyne someday so town can follow the Genocide route and I can be an immortal IC.