Micro 887: the coaLITion [game over]

[Gamma Emerald]

I don't agree and I don't know what to cite besides I'm better than you.

Yeah that's not convincing me. Quick question: besides Pokémon Ruby have you been N1d in any recent games?

[Gamma Emerald]

Just so we're clear, EP isn't policy. He's taken the same line of play that scum in the vast majority of my recent games have taken with me. Try to discredit me, call me scum while avoiding engagement and discrediting townreads on me. The NSG engagement is even worse, she has a clearly established meta of efforting less as scum and there's even a hydra game of the two of us where we were scum where she literally posted once, and he's handwaving that as well. It's not an honest interaction with my slot: either his approach to this game was clearly defined before game as prevent RChydra from being in the coalition at all costs or he is scum.

It's hard for me to figure out which one is correct so I'm instead choosing to just bucket him as a non-coalition player and hope to win the game without dealing with him.

I don’t think he’s trying not to engage with you as hard as you think; if you give him time and ask him good, pointed questions, rather than deciding as the be-all and end-all on page 7 that he’s probably scum choosing to ignore larger meta in favour of his own experience of your meta — which people are going to naturally default to, especially if they haven’t actually properly meta’d you — we won’t get any kind of consensus on him for a long time, and it will probably be impossible to do so.

^ this is an excellent post

[Hectic]

for my part i'm just going to treat EP like a nonparticipant in the game and hope that we win via coalition not including them regardless of their alignment.

i don't see how a comment like this is justified whatsoever, could RC or someone else point me towards what Espresso has done to tilt RC so much?

[Hectic]

this game is the summation of everything I dislike about mafia and it doesn't help that the most universally healed slot is my top scumread.

never played with this guy before, anyone who has: have you ever seen him act like this as scum?

[Hectic]

Just so we're clear, EP isn't policy. He's taken the same line of play that scum in the vast majority of my recent games have taken with me. Try to discredit me, call me scum while avoiding engagement and discrediting townreads on me. The NSG engagement is even worse, she has a clearly established meta of efforting less as scum and there's even a hydra game of the two of us where we were scum where she literally posted once, and he's handwaving that as well. It's not an honest interaction with my slot: either his approach to this game was clearly defined before game as prevent RChydra from being in the coalition at all costs or he is scum.

It's hard for me to figure out which one is correct so I'm instead choosing to just bucket him as a non-coalition player and hope to win the game without dealing with him.

would you not count 164 as him trying to engage with you?

[Hectic]

I'm liking Hectic's content and reads, but the difference in his playstyle is really nagging at me. It's almost like he's too good to be true now that he's playing normally, and I'm seeing that as a possible scum tactic.

@anyone else who has played with him, what are your thoughts on his behaviour? Do you think the change in his posting style is AI? Why/why not?

He has played every game differently, as far as I’m aware, from my occasional readings of newbie games, each with a different gimmick. It is true that he lacks a gimmick this time... but I don’t know if he’s been scum before or anything about that so...

nope, never rolled scum

HEAL: Hectic
I still have some meta reservations about him, but I like his content. On a brief iso skim:
+ he was willing to retract his RVS coalition vote
+ he's asking about reads and furthering discussion
+ he's being proactive with providing information
+ his reads seem to develop naturally
+ I agree with his reads

- he hasn't changed on his townread of me. Slight chance of this being an attempt at buddying.
- the meta/posting change, as discussed above

Overall, I'm happy with the +'s and think the -'s are probably just me being paranoid.

why is me retracting the RVS coalition vote a town-indicative thing to do? can't it also be seen as scum-indicative since i could be trying to appease the consensus that a coalition RVS is bad?

what's wrong with my townread of you? do you think any parts are fabricated?

[Hectic]

skimming through NC 39's ISO, i like everything he's said so far

though would like to hear your opinion on the RC side of the RCMA hydra

HEAL: NC 39

[Hectic]

i'm basically a nulltownlean on Gamma, he hasn't done anything wrong yet but nothing from him sticks out as massively townie either

eh actually, i like his explanation for why he townreads Spangled

HEAL: Gamma

need to hear a lot more from one Mr. Lil Uzi Vert

[Hectic]

[...]
RC reads was talked about earlier and it’s based on NSG actually posting.

I was hoping you'd have a bit more to substantiate the read at this point, as scum!nsg could very easily post more. What's your read on the RC head*?

*Note - I find it hard to read hydras. Is it better practice to split the read by head and consolidate later, or approach the read in a holistic manner from the outset?

12 seemed like a typical TownRC post to me but not definitely.

Most people go by reading individual heads if they knows one of the heads well.

since you seem to have experience with town!RC, what about 145 and 149?

Fine.

HURT: NC 39, Gamma Emerald

why those two in particular out of your starting 5?

[Gamma Emerald]

skimming through NC 39's ISO, i like everything he's said so far

though would like to hear your opinion on the RC side of the RCMA hydra

HEAL: NC 39

I'm concerned about how they're, like, sliding alongside me
Feels like buddying.

[Alchemist21]

[...]
RC reads was talked about earlier and it’s based on NSG actually posting.

I was hoping you'd have a bit more to substantiate the read at this point, as scum!nsg could very easily post more. What's your read on the RC head*?

*Note - I find it hard to read hydras. Is it better practice to split the read by head and consolidate later, or approach the read in a holistic manner from the outset?

12 seemed like a typical TownRC post to me but not definitely.

Most people go by reading individual heads if they knows one of the heads well.

since you seem to have experience with town!RC, what about 145 and 149?

Fine.

HURT: NC 39, Gamma Emerald

why those two in particular out of your starting 5?

His whole thought process on EP feels like Town RC.

2nd part has been answered in an earlier post.

[Hectic]

skimming through NC 39's ISO, i like everything he's said so far

though would like to hear your opinion on the RC side of the RCMA hydra

HEAL: NC 39

I'm concerned about how they're, like, sliding alongside me
Feels like buddying.

why? his 166 did come before your 169, or are you just talking about his reads in general aligning with yours?

Alchemist:

i see, thanks. what do you think of so many people townreading Spangled? do you agree/disagree?

[Gamma Emerald]

That and poking at Alchemist the way they are

[Alchemist21]

Alchemist: i see, thanks. what do you think of so many people townreading Spangled? do you agree/disagree?

I was actually a little surprised at how many were Townreading them when I checked the VC. They’re null to me.

[RC most awesomest]

if you're ignoring me in forming a read on our slot then what you're doing is focusing on things you find outrageous or things you disagree with and not actually looking for scummy play, and you should take a moment to do some self-reflection on that.

-nsg

[Hectic]

if you're ignoring me in forming a read on our slot then what you're doing is focusing on things you find outrageous or things you disagree with and not actually looking for scummy play, and you should take a moment to do some self-reflection on that.

-nsg

so not only did i self-reflect at your suggestion, but i went and really deeply contemplated my actions for a good few days. this was a real eye opener to me and it made me realise something, something huge. something i've been lying to myself about for years. something i'd always known to be true deep inside of me but had constantly repressed to the point of unbearable pain. you know what that was? that's right, i think you already have the answer, and what you were looking for was right in front of you all along

i have now returned with a crystal clear mindset, and am ready to reexamine your ISO

i agree with and have liked everything you've said setup-wise, haven't seen many reads or other content from you, and the ones you have provided are null for me

you answered a question with a question in 160, i'd also like to hear an actual explanation for why you and RC scumread Spangled

[Hectic]

damn sorry, i'm not supposed to be joking around in this game

i think some light JK Rowling is acceptable, otherwise, i'm all about some honest scumhunting and transparency this game

[Gamma Emerald]

Btw @RC I feel like you're kinda reading EP similarly to Pokémon Ruby rn

[RC most awesomest]

so not only did i self-reflect at your suggestion, but i went and really deeply contemplated my actions for a good few days. this was a real eye opener to me and it made me realise something, something huge. something i've been lying to myself about for years. something i'd always known to be true deep inside of me but had constantly repressed to the point of unbearable pain. you know what that was? that's right, i think you already have the answer, and what you were looking for was right in front of you all along

i have now returned with a crystal clear mindset, and am ready to reexamine your ISO

-shrug-

i'm making a genuine effort to get anyone who's town to reconsider what i know to be a counterproductive line of discussion and to challenge anyone who's scum and attempting to leverage this situation to their benefit. i'm sorry if i came across as condescending at all, but i don't think there's any need to be snarky towards me.

i agree with and have liked everything you've said setup-wise, haven't seen many reads or other content from you, and the ones you have provided are null for me

you answered a question with a question in 160, i'd also like to hear an actual explanation for why you and RC scumread Spangled

yeah, i've definitely been not particularly forthcoming with reads. in most games anyways i prefer to sit back and gather more information before really doing or saying anything decisive, but this game especially given that i'm in a hydra i've been putting most of my in the moment thoughts into the hydra PT.

RC scumread spangled before i did, but i've come around to see where he's coming from. take a look at spangled's pop-in here:

Spoiler:

what's a UTR? ultra townread?

A UTR is a universal townread.

@Alchemist, you haven't updated your coalition in a while. Is it still reflective of your current stance?

If yes, can you tell me a bit more about your NC and RCMA reads?

I'm liking Hectic's content and reads, but the difference in his playstyle is really nagging at me. It's almost like he's too good to be true now that he's playing normally, and I'm seeing that as a possible scum tactic.

@anyone else who has played with him, what are your thoughts on his behaviour? Do you think the change in his posting style is AI? Why/why not?

He has played every game differently, as far as I’m aware, from my occasional readings of newbie games, each with a different gimmick. It is true that he lacks a gimmick this time... but I don’t know if he’s been scum before or anything about that so...

If I did change it I would just take out NC and Gamma. I’d rather wait until having names to replace them with before taking them out though.

RC reads was talked about earlier and it’s based on NSG actually posting.

Whoops, ignore that quote up the top.

If I did change it I would just take out NC and Gamma. I’d rather wait until having names to replace them with before taking them out though.

RC reads was talked about earlier and it’s based on NSG actually posting.

Why would you take out NC and Gamma? Is it just the lack of a townread, or is there a more substantial reason?

If I did change it I would just take out NC and Gamma. I’d rather wait until having names to replace them with before taking them out though.

RC reads was talked about earlier and it’s based on NSG actually posting.

Whoops, ignore that quote up the top.

If I did change it I would just take out NC and Gamma. I’d rather wait until having names to replace them with before taking them out though.

RC reads was talked about earlier and it’s based on NSG actually posting.

Why would you take out NC and Gamma? Is it just the lack of a townread, or is there a more substantial reason?

Oh wow I did it again

i don't think there's any actual sorting or even attempt at game-solving in those posts (no offense to spangled). rather, it seems to me like going through posts and just finding things to respond to, perhaps one of the most consistently scum-indicative tells that i've ever encountered. if you believe that our slot has few reads, we should still look like a library compared to spangled's ISO.

here's another thing about me (in addition to the hanging back) that i mentioned in the last coalition setup i completed – i dislike it when people ask the generic question "what are your reads" without any seeming deeper purpose. and when you actually look through spangled's iso – i mean

actually really read it

– i noticed that there really wasn't much of any solving that i could see beyond that generic question, and i also noticed how often it came up.

Spoiler:

Do you have any reads yet Gamma?

@Alchemist
Got any reads yet?

@Clemency
Any reads yet?

@LUV
Any reads yet?

-nsg

[RC most awesomest]

i think it's a significant mistake for anyone to have spangled in their coalition right now and i feel like doing so is literally making the classic mistake that loses towns games: overlooking the silently scummy people coasting by in favor of focusing on the outrageous or distracting things.

[RC most awesomest]

-nsg

[RC most awesomest]

i think it's a significant mistake for anyone to have spangled in their coalition right now and i feel like doing so is literally making the classic mistake that loses towns games: overlooking the silently scummy people coasting by in favor of focusing on the outrageous or distracting things.

and this isn't meant as a criticism of anyone – it took RC mentioning a scumread on spangled for me to actually read his ISO in a critical manner and realize that i was being lazy to just write him off as town. i think spangled as he's played so far is an incredibly easy person to townread: he's fairly active, he's responding to discussions in a fairly reasonable manner and he's asking people questions. it's just that when you look closer, i think it becomes apparent that everything he's doing makes a lot of sense coming from the perspective of scum!spangled.

there have been no controversial stances from him, and indeed seemingly no strong stances whatsoever. most of his responses are reasonable, yes – but none of them offer any insight into his position as someone uninformed of everyone else's alignment. in fact, i'd say it's quite the opposite:

Just so we're clear, EP isn't policy. He's taken the same line of play that scum in the vast majority of my recent games have taken with me. Try to discredit me, call me scum while avoiding engagement and discrediting townreads on me. The NSG engagement is even worse, she has a clearly established meta of efforting less as scum and there's even a hydra game of the two of us where we were scum where she literally posted once, and he's handwaving that as well. It's not an honest interaction with my slot: either his approach to this game was clearly defined before game as prevent RChydra from being in the coalition at all costs or he is scum.

It's hard for me to figure out which one is correct so I'm instead choosing to just bucket him as a non-coalition player and hope to win the game without dealing with him.

I don’t think he’s trying not to engage with you as hard as you think; if you give him time and ask him good, pointed questions, rather than deciding as the be-all and end-all on page 7 that he’s probably scum choosing to ignore larger meta in favour of his own experience of your meta — which people are going to naturally default to, especially if they haven’t actually properly meta’d you — we won’t get any kind of consensus on him for a long time, and it will probably be impossible to do so.

if you look at this quote, i think it's not a stretch at all to see it as someone who wants to contribute to a discussion in a positive manner but who has no personal stake in the meaning of the discussion (given that they already know the answer). someone who wants to be seen saying something, but who doesn't particularly care about what the other people are saying and what it means about

them

.

(basically this is a long version of saying that it kind of reminds me of TMI, although not in the scumslip sense)

i mean, where's the comment about what RC's reaction means for his alignment? where's the "i wonder if scum!RC would say this about EP"? where's the "EP has been playing towny this entire game, he's not trying to discredit you"? there's no comment about anyone's alignment at all, just a comment that RC's being unproductive and that "we won't get any kind of consensus".


-nsg

[Gamma Emerald]

i dislike it when people ask the generic question "what are your reads" without any seeming deeper purpose

Why? Do you have examples of scum doing it?

[Hectic]

sorry, i wasn't being snarky, i was just kidding around with nonsense

anyway, I really that analysis on Spangled there, and you bring up some real good points. i did get the feeling earlier with that pop in you outlined, especially his response to the UTR thing given someone had already answered that for me, but i thought it too nitpicky to bring up earlier

putting this here to remind myself to go looking through some past Spangled games to see how often he asks that "Got any reads?" question as either alignment

that's all from me tonight, so for now:

HURT: Spangled
HEAL: RCMA

[Gamma Emerald]

That was poorly stated. Do you have it on record that scum do it more? Could you provide examples if that's the case?