Minvitational 8 - OVER before 611

[curiouskarmadog]

So Adel, would a curse free reply make you answer my questions and address my points?

and I bolded as I replied (you know I didnt type out the tags). Again you are finding reasons to avoid questions and stretching for anything you can...

sad.

and you thought the Shanba wagon was weak, but you think I am scummy for unvoting off of it?

[Adel]

I'm electing not to interact with ckd for a while, preferring civil company.

[curiouskarmadog]

bold is me

ckd bailed off of the Shamba wagon once it hit -3. He was attempting to use his vote for Shanba as a tool to get Shanba to account for his Cicero unvote/Oman vote in post 96.

His stated reason for unvoting was that he didn't like the speed of the wagon (yet it only got to lynch -3) but in his unvote post he left himself an opening to revote Shanba if he didn't like Shanba's reason for unvoting cicero and voting for Oman.

Adel, this was not the only reason for the unvote, I have stated this NUMEROUS times, your failure to acknowledge this is now become scummy

I don't see a Shanba mis-lynch as being a legitimate worry. ckd's explanation, restated a few times, doesn't make sense to me. When I pressure someone for information I want more pressure. I welcome people onto the wagon. ckd did not have a case on anther player that he moved on to. Bailing out because there suddenly more pressure doesn't make sense, especially sence he didn't have a case on another player.

I didnt like the speed of the reason-lite votes that came on a player that wasnt here to respond. I am tired of freaking repeating myself. I didnt "bail" because there was more pressure (please quote where I said that). I dont just vote for the sake of voting. I dont just unvote for the sake of silly unvoting. I no longer felt like it was where my vote wanted to be. HOWEVER, I wanted Shanba to know that I still expected him to answer my question.

Two scenarios would make sense:
1. ckd is scum w/ Shanba
2. ckd knows that Shanba is town

both are wrong

~~~

ckd pointed out that cicero left him out of a player breakdown. the interaction between cicero and ckd following that seems really scummy.

why?

the scumtell that I've left out up until now is that I believe scum are more interested in what other players think of them than townies are.

that is the biggest load of bullpoopoo I have ever heard.

I also think that scum like to collect the opinions of other players in order to better formulate a safe opinion to have,

I asked Cicero his opinion on me, to form an opinion on myself? That doesnt even make sense.

and identify perspective wagon to follow through on. Billy's most recent post is a scumtell due to this, as is ckd trying to dig information out of cicero.

Tell me again, what information was I trying to dig out of Cicero?

the breakdown:

ckd-scum/cicero-town:

ckd was trying to get information out of cicero, or trying to tie himself to cicero (simenon's point)

(see above) How is asking Cicero to state his opinion on me today = scum trying to dig for information to form opinions about others? I also dont understand how this = me tying myself to Cicero.

ckd-scum/cicero-scum:

ckd was trying to distance from cicero, and pointing out a mistake of cicero's (leaving out his scumbuddy) before someone else caught it

So I am scum pointing out my scum buddies fault, thus thrusting us into the limelight?!?..keep stretching.

ckd-town/cicero-town:

ckd is trying to get cicero on the record , since he is usually nk'd by people who neglect him in player breakdowns (ckd's defense, we're still waiting for evidence, which I doubt will be conclusive -- I totally don't buy it)

seems like you have already made a decision there...

ckd-town/cicero-scum:

same as above.

Following my initial vote for ckd, his first line of defense is to say that I am not normally so close-minded. (265)

my defense? I thought state my defense came later?

Two minutes later he speculates if I would've said anything about cicreo leaving him out if he hadn't pointed it out. (266)

so?

265, 273, 274, are rhetorical attemts to control the dialog at this point. He wanted me to write his defense for him by listing reasons he could have a town motivation for his action. Once he gives up on this trick, he posts

did you miss this part?

I have trouble understanding the motivation for ckd-town making that post, lit is like waving a sign saying "I'm lurking!".

so the answer is "No, I really can not think of any other reason why CKD would ask why Cicero why he did not mention him in an apparent break down"

I didnt notice that Cicero left Fonz off as well, or I might not had made the comment the way I did. I thought the post was a mini break down of Cicero's thoughts on everyone. I was curious where I stood on that list. I think it is important to get those thoughts in now, versus later. One of the things I am noticing in my games when I am NKed, is that my killer does not really mention me the day(s) before my kill. So when I see someone (who I feel is doing a mini break down of players) not mention me...small alarms sound.

Also, since I dont feel like I have been not been contributing, I was wondering why I was left out...so not only did I want to know what Cicero thought, I was curious why he left me out...I thought my comment would spur conversation on the subject.

I couldnt figure out why Cicero would do a mini break down, but not mention me...obviously he wasnt doing that...


also adel, I think you do play differently every game in regards to your agreesiveness. But being narrow minded is a new thing. I was curious how someone with your experience could only think of scum theories why I would ask Cicero that question, but not think of any town reasons to do so. I guess I over estimated your ability to look at things from different prespectives (noted for future).

DO you think you tunnel vision or bulldozer?

why did he wait until this post to post his defense?

Adel, you are not this ridiculous..I refuse to believe that you are this insane. I wanted to see if you really wanted us to believe that you could not come up with any town reason why I did that....

YOu continued to avoid the question. Even though you DID state that you didnt know why I did it (or why town would do it)...I just wanted to confirm that you truly lacked the skills to form those theories...when you confirmed that you just simply lacked the capacity to do so..I explained why I did it...

Note that here stumbles upon the next wave of his rhetorical defense: get Adel to argue that she is narrow-minded. Nice! I totally fell for it.

What? I made you agrue this? Oh dippy doo jesus. I think that I agreed with you multiple times...how did I make you argue this point? and lets play for second in Adel's make-believe land. Lets say I dubiously made you agure that you were narrow minded...how in crap's sake does that make me scummy?

The framing of that (narrow minded) is far less than flattering. I approach scum hunting like I do a math or physics problem: I identify a promising or interesting approach and try to work it through. Sometimes that means eliminating a problematic variable via the lynch. It usually requires that I post with false confidence in order to get anywhere. On this side of the screen I am very agnostic about everyone's alignment. I see mafia as a random system that can only be narrowly tweaked. I usually have two or three closely competing theories for who is most likely to be scum as well as two or three closely competing theories for who could be a group of scum.

I put money down that if I do hang or am night killed tonight and flip town, she will be referencing this little post later.

I feel like ckd had accomplished a pretty neat feat by discrediting me (narrow-minded)

LOL, I agreed with you! You made me change my opinion of you

and seriously undermining the legitimacy of any case I may make in this game. I'm working too damn hard in this game to let that happen.




First of all I've won my last 5 games as town in a row, and 70% out of my last 10 games as town and 73% of my last 15 games as town. I survived in 3/11, and was nk'd or daykilled 6/11 and lynched twice for those wins.

]I can identify scum, and my technique for identifying them works. I am not narrow-minded, I am effective.

Wow, dont believe her? She will throw numbers at you. WHo cares what your stats as town are...do we know you are town here?

Currently my biggest tell against ckd is that he fits my profile of scum:
1. no active scumhunting
2. fake votes on an easy target as a placeholder for actual activity
3. rapid response to any any attack that relies upon shifting the focus and responding to questions with diverting questions. Note his numerous posts on tangents which are then followed up by "what is your point". It is much more pro-town to attempt to just settle the case against you. ckd attempts to obfuscate it via volume of posts and attacking my credibility.

you have got to be kidding me with those points. Adel you know I post frequently. In house mafia (which you contributed to our loss, I guess that one was not in your last 5), Armlxscum tried to say that my posting style was a signal that I was fustrated scum and pushed a case...you should remember that...if you dont go check it out...check out Underground Mafia again that you were in..same posting style...check Small town Heroes..same deal.

I no longer think you are actively trying to scum hunt. I think you are trying to scrape together ANYTHING to form a case on me...you dont care if they make sense...or if it is ..or is warping facts...or are giant leaps in assumptions. I can not see anyone protown push this. You are conviently forgetting things that you should know. This is scummy

vote Adel

no doubt you will try to push that this is a scummy OMGUS vote...

there Adel, I cleaned it up for you so you have no reason to avoid it.

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm electing not to interact with ckd for a while, preferring civil company.

Awww...you want to push a case, but dont want to acknowledge my response. Also the fact that you posted that again is having interaction with me....thats "logick bitches".

[curiouskarmadog]

wait a minute..it is ok for you to use profanities..but when I do it is too much for you?

[shaft.ed]

With all of the profanity in 344 I failed to notice that ckd had to type out

and

fourteen times... without making an error or leaving a hanging tag.

Could that happen in the middle of a genuine emotional outburst?

I personally don't type out the quote tags. I'm a mouser.

[Adel]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

[shaft.ed]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I don't see compelling evidence that it was fake. Why are profanity and the preview button mutually exclusive?

[Oman]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I don't see compelling evidence that it was fake. Why are profanity and the preview button mutually exclusive?

I'm with shaft.ed. But I doubt that scumDel would think she could get away with this.

[shaft.ed]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I don't see compelling evidence that it was fake. Why are profanity and the preview button mutually exclusive?

I'm with shaft.ed. But I doubt that scumDel would think she could get away with this.

That's what I keep thinking. Maybe scumDel's motive is not to lynch CKD, but to appear as townDel? The WIFOM, it hurts.

[Oman]

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I don't see compelling evidence that it was fake. Why are profanity and the preview button mutually exclusive?

I'm with shaft.ed. But I doubt that scumDel would think she could get away with this.

That's what I keep thinking. Maybe scumDel's motive is not to lynch CKD, but to appear as townDel? The WIFOM, it hurts.

Brain Asplode

[mith]

Vote Count 12

Oman[3] (Erg0, vollkan, Shanba)
Shanba[2] (Jitsu, Oman)
shaft.ed[2] (The Fonz, Simenon)
Jitsu[2] (shaft.ed, BillyTwilight)
Erg0[1] (cicero)
curiouskarmadog[1] (Adel)
Adel[1] (curiouskarmadog)

[vollkan]

That said, I think you need to distinguish between weighing the evidence carefully, and speculation. I can think of a multitude of explanations for many posts, some of which may be scummy, but I don't see any utility in listing those possibilities (as you did). This is especially so given the potentially manipulative effect of only planting scummy possibilities. Also, giving such speculation can't be justified by being "open".

Part of it was due to the fact that I was making a catch up post, and I had not fully analyzed all the information to draw conclusions at that point. I just listed what I was thinking at the time. I admit it was speculative. You have a fair point here, and I understand the value of not spreading speculative scumclaims. I understand the potential it has for deception, but I want to make note of the fact that I did not mention only scummy possibilities.

I have a qualm with your explanation here. Whilst lack of full analysis is a legitimate reason for not drawing a solid conclusion, I don't see its relevance to what you did. The speculation you engaged in was over things which, realistically, no player other than Cicero (the subject of your speculation) could possibly form any concrete opinion upon, absent some truly enormous input of further information.

Hence, I see no way in which you could spin this as laying out a number of though pathways while you finalised your reasoning, since the very speculation you were engaged in was something that you couldn't reasonably hope to be able to draw conclusions about.

And the fact that you didn't raise exclusively scummy motivations is pretty much irrelevant. The point I am trying to make is that sowing the seeds of doubt by mere assertion is only going to range from unhelpful to manipulative. Sure, if you had only given scummy motivations, then my problems with this would be exacerbated, but the inclusion of one non-scum motivation (" Maybe it's just a simple attempt to feel Simenon out") doesn't mitigate the problem I have with the speculation itself.

I love secret traps. Since you've admitted that you had a trap, and since the moment has passed, how about being open and accountable about your gambit/trap?

I'm not sure I understand what you are looking for here (and it does sound like you are looking for something). As far as accountability, nobody needs my permission to hold me accountable for something I said. I assume that the basic fundamentals of mafia dictate that. To call it a secret trap is probably giving it way too much credit. I simply wanted to test the waters of CKD's opinion, and to do that, I did have to sell it a bit and apply some pressure.

You said:

And naturally, I had to keep my opinion of CKD close to my chest, or I would not have been able to trust the answer. I did say that I have an honest and open playstyle, but I'm not above withholding a bit of information to pull a little gambit or set a trap, if I see an opportunity and think it's in the town's interest. That's not a big part of my playstyle, though. I leave the major gambits to the professionals.

I was trying to ask (and my request was vague, I admit) what it was that you withheld and why. I mean that I was/am a bit confused by the rationale for withholding your opinion of CKD. As in, why does you expressing your opinion vitiate the trustworthiness of the answer?

ckd bailed off of the Shamba wagon once it hit -3. He was attempting to use his vote for Shanba as a tool to get Shanba to account for his Cicero unvote/Oman vote in post 96.

His stated reason for unvoting was that he didn't like the speed of the wagon (yet it only got to lynch -3) but in his unvote post he left himself an opening to revote Shanba if he didn't like Shanba's reason for unvoting cicero and voting for Oman.

Adel, this was not the only reason for the unvote, I have stated this NUMEROUS times, your failure to acknowledge this is now become scummy

CKD, the reasons I see you as having given for the unvote are:
1) Quickness of the reason-lite votes (this is a spun version of "speed of the wagon" that Adel refers to)
2) Shanba not posting

2) is a valid reason not to pressure wagon. If a player is not posting, then a wagon on them is not achieving anything other than giving the wagoners an opportunity to appear useful whilst being able to blame inactivity upon the lurker. That's my quibble with Adel here.

That said, however, you yourself clearly indicate that the speed of the wagon was a reason in your unvote. That makes Adel's criticism of the speed justification valid, and it makes it necessary for you to respond to them. It's slippery for you now to say that it wasn't the ONLY reason as a means of dealing with this.

ok. Still, do you think the profanity was the result of a genuine emotional outburst, or was a calculated rhetorical device, or something else?

I think it might well have been calculated, but nobody other than CKD can hope to know and the fact that his quote tags were not messed up doesn't strike me as very significant evidence of calculation.

[cicero]

The Scumdel theory I'm currently considering is this. Adel was being called out for playing conservatively. I said she looked the way she did as scum in Ipick. Then her play switched to a more hyper aggressive mode of play. Which, yes, is how one might behave if one wanted to appear townier. Simply put I have thought almost all of Adel's opinions on this day one are opinions I would not share.

I'm not feeling most of the attacks on CKD at all, frankly. On a pro TownDel tip, I had some sympathy for her Vollkan point, as I said before. I will also say that at least she's pushing buttons and playing aggressively. That's a good thing.

Answers to all questions posed to me are forthcoming in the next couple days. Apologies if I don't answer your questions right away and still post. I'd rather post my opinion on something than stay silent. Answering questions requires going back, finding the quote, quoting it, posing a response. Lots of blah blah stuff like that. A post like this just needs me to open my mouth and spew. So just because I make one of these doesn't mean I've ignored you.

[cicero]

Can you contrast this with the waffling you are accusing Jitsu of?

Easily. No one could ever accuse me of being a habitual waffler. Sometimes I say a point could go either way or that i can't draw a firm conclusion from it. But other times - lots of other times - I'll just say this or that is a great point or this or that is crap. I do it bluntly with short sentences and pretty great clarity. Jitsu was coming across as far more cautiously equivocal then anyone would ever sanely accuse me of being. I'm more rash and provocative. So there's your contrast.

That doesn't mean he's necessarily scum by any stretch. But it is one of the many tactical approaches of scum, so one needs to raise the point, ask how different his play is here from other games as a confirmed town, and then press him on his opinions (or lack thereof) to determine whether they are honestly held or whether he's just equivocating to avoid conflict and attention. Just as we, likewise, need to attack someone else's "tunnel vision" and confirmation bias to see whether that's honest. I don't fundamentally look to whether a person IS waffling or IS having confirmation bias. I try to see whether I agree with their reasoning or whether what they posted might be colored by ulterior motive.

So that's your long answer there, Shaft.ed.

[cicero]

ckd looks a little scummy (his defence to Adel was particularly troublesome)

How so? How about now after you've done your far more thorough read through.

Jitsu seems slightly off from what I saw of him in vollkan's game, but that's a back-of-the-mind thing right now.

Can you give me any substance here at all to substantiate this?

Oman's "I'm not voting" post was definitely different for him, and I'm not sure if this is mitigated by the fact that he pointed this out himself.

Of course it is. It's like alcoholism. Admitting one is a rampant bandwagon humper is the first step on the long road to recovery.

Something more thorough will come, pending some note-taking on my part.

Waiting.

[Oman]

I fell off the wagon. Sim informed me of this. I am out of denial.

[cicero]

I think Adel's point on Vollkan is good

Define "good". I don't see how a smell test assertion can rightly be considered a point at all, yet alone a "good" one.

Let's not play at robots. The intangible plays a strong role in this game. Gut is very important. Myself, Simenon, and Adel - all felt the same possibility with your post. It was an aggressive shot across the bow at a player who, do to a careful and equivocal style and a lower profile on the boards, was the one that, one could surmise, could most easily be punched in the chin and knocked on his ass. I felt the same thing Adel did but didn't want to say anything immediately. I wanted to watch things develop and see whether your push felt genuine.

That is not to say that the reasons for gut are inarticulable. How can I articulate what we all saw. Your earlier postings hadn't been quite as pointed and aggressive. Your swoop on Jitsu was. And it used pointed language. The timing and manner of posting - up to and including strong language and the use of italics - was clearly a rather aggressive shot across the bow. So I noted what others did as well - that this might be an attempt to land an easy day one mislynch on Jitsu by possible scum.

By no means am I satisfied that that is definitely what is happening. But to suggest no one should note it, and to attempt to wave away all such intuitive play is highly problematic to me. Are you really saying there is no place for gut and intuition in mafia? or are you just asking for people to try to articulate what their gut is doing?

All this being said, I don't think for a second you should stop questioning Jitsu. I'm not prepared to vote you for this. I just agree with Adel's observation vis-a-vis a

possible

ongoing scenario. Remember that the opposing

possible

scenario one might see is Adel swooping to a junior scumbuddy's rescue. It isn't the first time she's done it either.

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 56#1123056

So in the words of Adel, Adel/Jitsu +2.

(This kind of associational stuff, incidentally, is in my opinion all good day one info to be used

as the game goes on

. Using associational tells as the basis for a day one lynch is very problematicwhen no one is dead. They should be used when a scum has been found in order to trace the other scum.)

Waffling is a matter of personal writing style and I don't think it is something that has any game-relevance.

This is far too sweeping a generalisation and may point to a difference in our use of the term. When I say waffling I mean equivocation and unwillingness to pick a side. It is substantive. It is not a matter of style. It often has game significance. For instance when people are pushing a scumbuddy's and you don't want to bus him but you also don't want to have his back. Waffling occurs. Or when you want to keep your poker hand close to your chest in the early game as scum to allow for maximum tactical flexibility as the game goes on. To suggest waffling simly has *poof* no game relevance doesn't make any sense to me, so what are you really trying to say?

[shaft.ed]

So what do the 'vollkan attack Jitsu' folks think of the continued back and forth? That's not getting much comment.

[cicero]

How about you let it play out for a bit, or join in with your own thoughts. I'm gonna let it play out for a bit. And if I have interjectory relevant thoughts I'll make them to the participants.

[Adel]

Jitsu is indeed a waffler.

no, he is simply a careful poster who simply hasn't adopted the bombastic style common here.

I lobbied pretty hard for Jitsu's inclusion in this game for that very reason: he is a careful poster who hasn't adopted the bombastic style common here.

The tone of ckd's recent posts directed at me is typical of many of our generation (ABR, BM, ect). I think Jitsu's style is better, and I've tried to re-incorporate some of his into mine.

vollkan attacked him for the very reason I wrote so many PM's to mith and others: of course I responded.

~~~

Why hasn't vollkan voted for Jitsu?

[curiouskarmadog]

just because you are ignoring my question Adel, doesnt mean they will go away.

[BillyTwilight]

I'm extremely interested to hear Sim's thoughts on CKD's original response to Adel.

[curiouskarmadog]

I'm extremely interested to hear Sim's thoughts on CKD's original response to Adel.

while we wait, maybe we can hear yours.

[Adel]

I'm extremely interested to hear Sim's thoughts on CKD's original response to Adel.

this is B.S.

unvote:ckd, vote: BillyTwilight

post or perish.