Alisae V Pine: Trees Apparently Make Good Treestumps

[the worst]

twinkle twinkle alisae
can't we just lynch firebae

i forgot the rest.

[Dannflor]

up above the world so high
like a fire in the sky

[the worst]

like a scumfuck in the sky tbh

[popsofctown]

VOTE: chennisden

[the worst]

something something pops something opportunism something
whatever i'm happy to lynch chennis

[Firebringer]

chennisden is town

[Firebringer]

twinkle twinkle alisae
can't we just lynch firebae

i forgot the rest.

I can top u

Let it go, let it go
Can't hold it back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn my back and slam the door
The fire burns white on the mountain tonight
Not a footprint to be seen
A kingdom of isolation and it looks like I'm the scum king
The wind is howling like the swirling storm inside
Couldn't keep it in
Heaven knows I try
Don't let them in, don't let them see
Be the good scum boi you always had to be
Conceal, don't feel, don't let them know
Well now they know
Let it go, let it go
Can't hold you back anymore
Let it go, let it go
Turn my back and slam the door
And here I stand
And here I'll stay
Let it go, let it go
The fire never bothered me anyway

[the worst]

honestly only scum would post the lyrics to let it go in a mafia game

can you fill me in on why chenn is town?

[popsofctown]

something something pops something opportunism something
whatever i'm happy to lynch chennis

I feel like I don't know who the scum is outside of this slot. This game is wrecking me.

FB doesn't approve this lynch so I guess it's a nogo though :/.

Maybe we should look for someone who pushed xofelf or Ari in the worst faith.

[Formerfish]

so i may or may not have mentioned that firebringer is scum right

I think so. but u should write it in song.

[Firebringer]

chennisden is in his town lazy game. Literally seen this story play out before, don't feel like arguing any nuance to it.
T

[the worst]

something something pops something opportunism something
whatever i'm happy to lynch chennis

I feel like I don't know who the scum is outside of this slot. This game is wrecking me.

FB doesn't approve this lynch so I guess it's a nogo though :/.

Maybe we should look for someone who pushed xofelf or Ari in the worst faith.

who are your strongest townreads?

[Firebringer]

from one person who scumreads another player, can't u just trust me that I am white knighting chennisden?

[the worst]

chennisden is in his town lazy game. Literally seen this story play out before, don't feel like arguing any nuance to it.
T

ok so...i'm fine with lynching chennisen...
this is like that time people argued myloninja13's meta was "not posting as scum" so then he started not posting as town and posting as scum and won like b2b scumgames for doing sfa

anecdotal but it's also absolutely true. i'm not taking a towncase which is "this is his town meta of being absolutely fucking useless"

[Dannflor]

im in a similar boat as pops rnow where im lacking confident scum reads

VOTE: chennis my most confident lynch atm but will probably have to change at the behest of fire

im gonna take a bit of a break from this game and come back tonight / tomorrow morning to dive into my reads and try to make things less murky

[popsofctown]

something something pops something opportunism something
whatever i'm happy to lynch chennis

I feel like I don't know who the scum is outside of this slot. This game is wrecking me.

FB doesn't approve this lynch so I guess it's a nogo though :/.

Maybe we should look for someone who pushed xofelf or Ari in the worst faith.

who are your strongest townreads?

GreyICE, Formerfish, Dannflor, Gamma Emerald.

Second tier is Krazy, Firebringer, and Iconeum.

I go back and forth on whether I want to TR Menalque but I think I do.

S_S is mechtown ofc.

[Formerfish]

Iconeum.

How is he a read for you at all?

[Something_Smart]

Pops can you explain Dancefloor

I'm not really doubting it so much as canvassing for other opinions because he confuses me.

[Pink Ball]

Let's get
KRAZY KRAZY KRAZY WHEN WE HIT THE SCUM

[mastina]

1. It's based on who she is pushing and the way she's doing it. Instead of giving actual reads on her scumreads, she's going for the "this is a good pick for Pine" angle while she should be inmune to scumreads because "Pine wouldn't pick me" while "everyone is a good Pine pick".

Bullshit. Let's take a look at the reads I've actually given, shall we?

Spoiler: First wallpost readslist

Skygazer/Titus
^When it comes to Skygazer, I will admit: I am quite aware that Skygazer is the perfect pocket pick for Pine to make as scum. She's a smooth operator when it comes to worming her way through towns, and yet she's lowkey enough that none would really suspect her of doing so. A solid choice for him to make. So why is she my top townread? Because while I know she'd be a perfect pick for Pine, she's just an obvtown slot.

Plus.
If replacements in this game work anything like in previous iterations of the game.
Pine controls who replaces into his scumteam and Jingle controls who replaces into the town, and Titus is more of a Jingle replacement than a Pine replacement. Yes, there's value in Titus being scum, but it's a pick more likely to come from Jingle.

This read is literally the fucking OPPOSITE of relying on "Pine would pick them". Here I outline exactly why Skygazer is a good pick for Pine...and said that "But it doesn't matter if she was the perfect pick, she simply isn't scum".

Literally the fucking opposite of the alleged 'this is a good pick for Pine' angle.

0-1 so far.

Ankamius
^I said it before: the only way Ankamius is town is if Jingle sniped her away from Pine before Pine could pick her. The thing is, I actually believe that's exactly what happened. It's dangerous territory to tread, but I legit think that when Pine said that Jingle did snipe away picks from him that he wanted, he was telling the truth--and Ankamius would be an obvious example of exactly that. This is why she's much higher up on my readslist compared to where she previously was.

This IS an example of "This is a good pick"--I won't say it wasn't because that is quite explicitly exactly what it was.

1-1 so far.

MariaR
^Pine could pick MariaR because she's an absurdly good scum player and not really the best town player. Could. I don't think he did tho. I admit, I don't have any logic, any reasoning behind this. Just gut, that she's town this game.

This is another anti-example of it. This isn't saying "I think Pine didn't pick her because my gut tells me Pine didn't pick her"; this is saying "I think Pine didn't pick her because my gut tells me that she is town".

1-2 so far.

Gamma Emerald
^Gamma's similar to MariaR, but better as town and worse as scum. Still GOOD as scum, and reasonably decent as town. So Pine could pick Gamma. I just don't think he did. Again, no reasoning tho. Just gut. I know from experience I can't really read Gamma, but I just FEEL Gamma's town.

Mirrors the MariaR reasoning. Not "Pine didn't pick Gamma because my gut says he didn't"; "Pine didn't pick Gamma because my gut says Gamma is town".

1-3 so far.

Firebringer
^Firebringer is the ultimate slot of me being utterly unable to read him. Like, I think my read accuracy on him sits at some impressive number like out of 40 games having it at like 5%? No joke, it's that low. I can't read him and I don't really have a metric for whether Pine would recruit him or not. He's an underestimated player regardless of his alignment. Skilled town, skilled scum, but with a playstyle which makes you think he's neither. So he'd be a decent pick for Pine, I know this. And I also know that I can't read him. But in spite of that. I agree with those who say he looks town; if I had to guess, I would think exactly that.

Here I actually explain why at the time I held a townread on Firebringer, and this townread wasn't based around "Pine didn't pick him".

1-4 so far.

Chickadee
^Honestly the only way Chickadee is scum is if Pine deliberately chose her as a pocket pick nobody would expect, think like the Aristophanes of last game. Admittedly, that's not impossible--after all, Pine did in fact pick Aristophanes last game. But while it's not impossible, I don't think it particularly probable. I'm not really feeling Chickadee as scum. This feels like her usual towngame performances I've seen. Admittedly, I am unfamiliar with her scumgame; I have seen her multiple times as town but I can't recall the last time she was scum. So this is a flawed perspective especially since Pine gives coaching to his partners on how to play. But push come to shove, lacking any alternative assessment, she's town to me.

Here I outline having a townread on Chickadee based on meta.

1-5 so far.

Pink Ball
^This is probably Pink Ball's towngame. It's not definitive. It's questionable. But I'm willing to take the gamble on it. Sure, he's underperforming, but I don't think the underperformance is because he's scum; I actually think if anything it's kinda proof that he's town. I do think that Pink Ball could be selected by Pine; he knows PB's good regardless of his alignment, denying him from the town would be smart and he'd still deliver as scum. But if I had to guess, I'd say he didn't.

This wasn't "Pine didn't pick PB because reasons", this was "Pine didn't pick PB because I think this is PB's towngame".

1-6 so far.

Iconeum
^If Iconeum has contributed content, I've missed it in my not-very-thorough reading of the game. He's someone Pine could select as a pocket pick; he's not incompetent as scum and is someone who can fly under the radar for ages. I initially placed him under chennisden (see below) for exactly this reason. However, that having been said. I've seen Iconeum as scum recently. He doesn't seem to be the same Iconeum from that game, and that's why I bumped him up to here; I know I should probably investigate this more, but for now I'm okay calling him weakly town.

Again, my reason for townreading him isn't based around Pine's assessment of Iconeum, but on MY recent experience with Iconeum. MY meta with Iconeum, not Pine's.

1-7 so far.

chennisden
^This is about where my null list starts. I don't have a read on chennis one way or another. I also have no clue how Pine would assess him.

Null read, no assessment of Pine's viability in the pick.

1-8 so far.

Dannflor
^Dannflor is an amazing town player but I've zero idea how Pine would think of him in terms of selecting him as a scumbuddy. That having been said: his play this game is incredibly underwhelming given what he's capable of. It's a little bit iffy as a result.

I mention having no clue how Pine would treat Dann, but at the time being iffy about his content.

1-9 so far.

PenguinPower
^Honestly does PP play the game much regardless of his alignment? I get the impression that regardless of his alignment 95+% of his posting's just going to be memeing. Pine could easily select PP, but I've no gauge on whether he actually did or not.

This one was later edited into "actually, Pine might legit pick PenguinPower" so I'll concede this one because yeah that's mostly off of Pine Pick logic.

2-9 so far.

Formerfish
^Formerfish is another player who, in spite of his content thusfar, I'm finding difficult to get a grasp on. He's the kind of pocket pick I can see Pine making, but I can't really tell if Pine did or not.

"I can't tell if Pine picked him and I can't read his content yet". This was later changed to a townread off of his content.

2-10 so far.

Menalque
^To be honest. Menalque's someone I probably scumread regardless of his alignment, not gonna lie here. I believe we've played twice together and I scumread him both times--sure, in one game he was scum, but in the other game he was town and I'm not sure I can tell the difference between the two. I can say that as town he seemed to give more content than as scum, which would be a bad sign for him this game, but he's also not exactly showing the things I'd expect from him as scum, which is a promising sign.

I didn't even MENTION Pine here.

There's no fucking way you could contest this.

So automatically.

2-11 so far.

Untrod Tripod/xReckonerx
^Pine knows that UT can carry a scumgame and Reck is the type of replacement Pine would love to make. So I can easily see this being a scum slot. That having been said. While I can see it as a scum slot, there's nothing which makes me convinced it IS a scum slot. Gun to my head I'd actually lean otherwise, which honestly makes me think he might be placed too low, but I've been debating on whether he's too high or too low on my readslist a lot because I'm weary of the slot, which is why he's here.

"Pine could select, but I don't think he did because I'm not convinced it's a scum slot off of content".

2-12 so far.

GreyICE
^There are reasons GreyICE could be town. Namely, if LLD is scum then GreyICE isn't because while they COULD bus like this easily and it's within their scum metas to do so in this fashion, I don't think Pine would approve--not because of any strategic reason, mind you. Just because the resulting gamestate from their fight is INCREDIBLY unfun and Pine wouldn't want to win because his scumteam orchestrated an unfun gamestate for the game.

There are also fairly strong reasons for GreyICE to be scum.
He's used meta, when he is a strong proponent of meta being bullshit.
His play is vastly underwhelming because aside from pushing LLD he's done basically nothing.
He's someone that Pine knows is good at both town and scum and is someone Pine could easily pick to get some oldguard in the game.
So overall this is where my "could be scum" list starts.

This one isn't based on Pine picks even though the townread is related to Pine's thoughts; this one is based on what actually happened in the game and how Pine wouldn't have let that happen if they were scumbuddies.

So still.

2-13 so far.

Katsuki
^Pine picked Katsuki as a replacement in the first iteration of this game for damn good reason. Katsuki's a skilled scum player, who also has a knack for pulling impressive townplays if left unchecked, so picking Katsuki is a good denial pick. That having been said, while I think Katsuki's play here could be scum, I know that Katsuki's alignment should become more obvious as the game progresses and right now I'm not sure it's scum.

"Pine could pick Katsuki, but I'm not sure he did yet, I need more time/content to tell". Time/content being based on the thread...yep.

2-14 so far.

DrippingGoofball
^Honestly DGB's a bit past her prime. She used to be one of the best town/scum players in the old meta but in the current meta she's only so-so. She's this low for a combination of "Pine could pick her because of nostalgia and hoping to bring back her at her prime" and her play being vastly underwhelming, but that having been said, similar to UT/Reck, I've debated on her positioning here; I almost put her much much higher in my readslist because I'm not convinced she's scum.

"Pine could pick her and her play is underwhelming, but she might be town". Not based around Pine picks; based around content provided.

2-15 so far.

xofelf
^When I made my original readslist, xofelf was quite high up. This was through a combination of reasons. I didn't believe Pine would be a dick enough to make her be scum and have such an unfun time and I liked the content which she had given. LLD's case made me reconsider both of these points. I am not

convinced

that LLD's case was on the money, on point, accurate and correct. But if nothing else I admit it has

merit

to it, and the idea is certainly at least plausible. I'm not convinced it's

probable

, but the plausibility of Pine picking xofelf as scum exists enough for her to be about here.

"I thought Pine didn't pick her and I thought her content was town. LLD's case made me reconsider both halves of this assessment, but I'm not convinced".

Not revolving around Pine's pick; still revolves around her game content.

2-16 so far.

Lady Lambdadelta
^Honestly my main suspicion on LLD is the Commuter claim in that it is a role that Pine would want more than Jingle would, it is a role which feels like there's better players for Jingle to give it to, and it is a role that feels like it'd mesh poorly with other town roles in the setup. These are all very solid reasons for LLD's claim to be suspect. But I can also see the other side; I can understand why LLD's Commuter role could be something Jingle would give her. I understand that Commuter IS a role Jingle could use, in spite of it probably meshing poorly with other town roles in the setup; I actually can see the logic and reasoning behind Jingle giving it to her even if I think there's better choices.

From a pick perspective, LLD would be a player of high value to Pine, but also to Jingle. She is a VERY strong scum player and a damn good town player, too. She is also an obvious choice for Pine to pick--Pine can choose obvious choices, but he's under no obligation to do so. Plus, there's the whole matter of how regardless of her alignment, she's a distraction.

Ali, I disagree that lynching her removes her as a distraction. You know why? Because once she flips, regardless of what she flips, the division between the town established today from the two sides, those fighting for her being scum and those fighting for her being town, will continue after her death. Whichever side was right will feel vindicated and the distraction will remain after her demise as a consequence of this interaction.

If I had to give a guess, my guess would actually be that she's town. My heart wants her to be scum because I want to believe in the players pushing her as being scum having the right reasoning, having locked on to accurate facts, good sound logic that holds true. But I'm somewhat skeptical of this. I can't really articulate why I'm skeptical, so call the skepticism gut if you must. I'm just hesitant to commit here because while I objectively see all the reasons for her to be scum, something about it doesn't feel right.

Also, sidenote: the jjh-Aristophanes division on her feels ridiculously orchestrated by Pine.

This read was very much about the play in the game not the pick.

2-17 so far.

popsofctown
^I'll be honest, I don't really have much of a read here and have no clue how Pine would treat pops. Pops is this low purely through gut reaction of me not liking what I've seen. I've no judgement on the accuracy of this gut, but it's all I'm going on.

"No clue how Pine would treat pops, but by gut I'm thinking pops is scum".

As explicitly as possible.

2-18.

the worst
^If the worst is town this game, he is vastly, VASTLY underperforming. This feels a lot more like his scumgame than his towngame to me. He's also the kind of player I think that Pine's more likely to pick and while I can see Jingle having selected him, I think that balance of probabilities, this is probably not his towngame. I know that the worst can as town have vastly underwhelming performances as town and that the worst as scum doesn't necessarily underperform. But I just feel like it's more likely in this case for this game that the worst is scum underperforming not town underperforming.

Self-evidently based around the worst's contributions to the game, not Pine.

2-19.

Krazy
^So my thoughts on Krazy can be summed up as: If Pine picked Krazy to be scum, it would be a dick move. Pine would know from experience that Krazy is burned out from playing scum and wouldn't have much fun in the role. Pine would know that while Krazy is an amazing town player, he's only so-so as a scum player. But the reason I think that Pine could pick Krazy in spite of it being a dick move is a combination of:
1: Pine could feel that, with his involvement in the scum PT, he could revitalize Krazy's scumplay. He could see it as a challenge, to try and make Krazy have fun in a role he currently abhors.
2: Pine could value Krazy as a player to help balance and round out his scumteam composition.
3: Pine could pick Krazy to deny the town access to one of its better scumhunters, which is especially true if Pine was denied the chance to grab Ankamius. (You don't want Ankamius and Krazy to be able to work together.)
4: Krazy is not an obvious choice to pick, which means that Pine could get away with it without anybody really thinking about it.
Probably more reasons that I am forgetting about.

So there's a case to be made both ways. I can see Pine thinking Krazy's a good pick; I can see Pine not picking Krazy. Heck, I can even see Jingle denying Pine the chance to pick Krazy albeit not as likely as with Ank.

So why is Krazy so low?

Because my stance on him thusfar this game can be summed up as such: I haven't seen anything which makes me particularly townread him, nor have I seen anything which makes me particularly scumread him.

The last time I had that stance on him...he was scum.

So I think that it's more likely that he's scum.

This is literally in favor of the opposite. "Picking Krazy is a dick move for Pine...but given Krazy's play here is his scum meta, it looks like it happened anyway".

2-20.

jjh
^jjh is a scumread because simply put he's scum this game.

I mean I didn't mention Pine here at all so.

2-21.

Aristophanes
^You know my initial joke reasoning for scumreading Ari? Not in any way a joke. Aristophanes was a clutch pick by Pine last game. The entirety of the scumteam--Aristophanes included--thought that Pine first picking Aristophanes last game was basically Pine trolling/borderline gamethrowing. But last game, the entire reason the scumteam won was BECAUSE Pine first picked Aristophanes as scum.

Now, Pine probably, legitimately, wouldn't first pick Aristophanes as scum again, that much is probably true. But I still think that Pine picked Aristophanes as scum anyway. In part, because people wouldn't think he'd do it twice. In part, because Aristophanes is fun to have as a scumbuddy. In part, because Aristophanes would be a glue to help hold the team comp whatever it is together. In part, because Aristophanes still had room to grow and one of the things Pine likes to do in these games is to coach his scumbuddies into growing as scum players, to become better at scumplay than they were before and Aristophanes still had room to grow.

Aristophanes had stated that he always has looked up to me to perform well as scum and while I'm not scum this game so he wouldn't have me to be that direct source of inspiration, he'd still have good reason to try and impress, to do his best, to exceed any and all expectations of him as scum. And I think that his play here is exactly that. I think that his play here is his evolved top-form scumplay, not his signature townplay.

This one contains elements of being revolved around Aristophanes's play, but I'll admit that yes this read was mostly Pine-centric.

So final score:
3-21.

3 reads revolving around Pine.

21 which did not.

It's also patently false that I've been hypocritical.
My stance hasn't changed and there is no contradiction behind it.
Everyone could be picked.
There is no fucking doubt about that.
There are players who are better picks than others.
There is no fucking doubt about that.
There are players who would in general be good picks but IN THIS GAME would be shitty picks. There is no fucking doubt about that; I am one of those players.
There are players who would in general be shitty picks but IN THIS GAME would be good picks. There is no fucking doubt about that.
Everyone has reason to be picked, so asking "why wouldn't Pine pick X" is a fucking mistake. There is no fucking doubt about that.
But going over the why and how Pine DID/DIDN'T pick X isn't a fucking mistake.

There is nothing in that which is contradictory; these stances all augment one another.

rather an opportunistic kind of reads.

Yes because reads I've held the whole fucking game before literally any other player has so much as fucking ENTERTAINED the idea of them being scum are

totally

opportunistic and not in any way shape or form me having had a fucking scumread the entire fucking game.

Last but not least: would scum!PB, who has experience with mastina, REALLY try to get her lynched instead of anyone else in this playerlist?

Why wouldn't you when a mastina mislynch is viable and incredibly pro-scum since I might legit be the only full ungated non-fruit protective role in the game? There are players that Pine probably wants to nightkill but if he can't actually stop my bodyguard, he might avoid killing them specifically because of that. A mastina mislynch means he can plow through the town with no fear.

[the worst]

Pops can you explain Dancefloor

I'm not really doubting it so much as canvassing for other opinions because he confuses me.

i took a really damn long time to townread dannflor since i think i have high pocket equity for him
lmk if you want my thoughts

[Something_Smart]

Sure, go for it.

[Alisae]

Alibored

[mastina]

I know my ISO like the back of my hand. That's my secret, I'm chaotic, but with a purpose.

And yet you think I am scum when you saying this about yourself knowing everything you do about me is a pot kettle black.

[Titus]

Mastina, I got your back. Let's ignore Ali and solve the game. Talk to me about the D1 VCs please. Why do you think LLD was bumrushed through?