Normal 222: Black Versus White Mafia (Endgame)

[PMysterious]

Hello everyone. I will go ahead and read through and get back to you guys on my thoughts on the current alive players, aside from creature who was just replaced.

[PMysterious]

I'm still reading through some of these posts, but based on what I've gathered, I'm not a fan of either Rick Dalton or The Fonz at this point.

Rick, I find your posts to be all over the place. The only thing that could be true is that there is at least one Ninja in this game. Everything else just confuses me, almost like an enigma.

The Fonz- "Lynch All Liars", the first and only thing that is said in this position. No other reason to push on Rick being scum, other than "he's a liar". Yes, he's claimed that he pretended, but that's all he's done so far. I don't see any real reason to push on Rick at the moment, so I'm probably going to leave that alone.

VOTE: The Fonz

I'm going to place Fonz at L-2, so I'm going to ask you, is there any other reason you suspect Rick, or is there any reason that you just voted for him with the "Lynch All Liars" quote?

As for everyone else, I'll get to that as soon as I can.

[PMysterious]

I've been busy, but I'll go ahead and say the following.

Almost50- I can't defend the actions of anyone who was in my slot before me. I don't know them well enough to say anything about them that would be a solid defense. If people were scumreading those slots, then it wouldn't necessarily be fair to lump me into that same read just because of the previous slot.

Vault- I respect your list as it is. At least it is a unique spin on the town-scum read style, and it gives reasons instead of just lumping them in to a category.

At this point, we should just mass claim, considering there’s already...3 PR’s outed, I believe? Maybe 4.

This is a little risky to do at this point. Considering that there are only 2 nights worth of night actions and the fact that (as you mentioned, mind you), there's likely a ninja, and if there is, then there probably isn't as much tracking information to go off of. However, any other information on doctors that might have saved someone or maybe who the second killer on Night 2 was could be useful in the long run. So, I say we go for it.


Now, finally, I want to bring a few things up in regards to the night actions.

First off, there have been 4 deaths, a lynch on Day 1, a night kill on Night 1, no lynches on Day 2, and 2 night kills on Night 2. So, my question is, what happened during the nights?

Night 1

- Normally, it would be safe to assume that there's just one mafia team and the committed this kill. However, given that Night 2 had 2 kills, something is off. If the Mafia committed this crime, then there is either an Even night Serial Killer or an Even Night Vigilante.

However

, I would also like to think that maybe there are 2 killers and they either both happened to target the same person or one of them was saved by a doctor or some sorts. We will need a mass claim to confirm this.

Night 2

- The role PM left behind on the Chemis kill indicates that he has a Bodyguard like ability, so it is likely that whoever Chemis protected was the original target of either the Mafia or the Vigilante/SK. If I need to, I can ISO him to determine who is the person Chemis most likely detected.

So, with all of that out of the way, I have a few theories along with the one mentioned.

There is a Doctor or a 1 shot doctor who got lucky and saved someone on the first night.

- This will depend on if the Mafia and the other killer(s) work on Odd-Nights.

The Serial Killer/Vigilante works only on Even Nights.

The most likely circumstance given everything that has went down. If this is the case, then a claim on who the original target was would be nice for information sake. HOWEVER, if a Serial Killer or Vigilante claim is not brought up, then it brings me to my craziest yet somehow plausible theory.

There are actually 2 sets of Mafia.

I know this is highly unlikely, but given that there are 2 night kills and the name sake of the game is Black Versus White Mafia, it isn't entirely out of the question. Considering how crazy it is, I could be wrong on this assumption entirely.

Now, to recap everything.

1. Who is the second killer and what is their role in specific?

2. If the other killer works on odd nights, then did they target someone on Night 1 that might have likely been saved?

3. Did this other killer target someone OTHER than any of the 2 people that were killed on Night 2?

Once we answer these questions, then it's possible that this game could be cracked open. How will this help us? Because then we'll be able to know what exactly we need to be on the lookout for. So, hopefully, the mass claim possibility helps us answer these questions.

Now I'll go ahead and start the mass claim. I am a

Vanilla Townie

. Considering that there are 3 that have died already, there should be around 3 to 7 left besides me, depending on the setup.

[PMysterious]

My total results thus far are: Saudade N1 and Clem N2, both went nowhere on the night they were tracked. Do with this information what you will.

This is interesting information. Since I am a VT, I would have no reason (or even ability) to leave my house during the night.

As for Saud, while the ninja possibility is likely, it's highly unlikely that the first person Lapsa tracked was the Mafia Ninja (1/16 to be precise), so I'm going to say that Saud is likely town.

[PMysterious]

Well, why not? Any claim is a good claim.

UNVOTE: The fonz

VOTE: Croag

[PMysterious]

Where the fuck is everyone? Why did any of you sign up for this game? Does anyone have any intention of playing (outside of the 3-4 slots that are probably regularly checking this game)?

That's a good question. To be fair, I've been a little busy, but I do want to use this game as a platform to help get myself back into Mafia.

However, I do also wonder where everyone is. There's so much to discuss here and we need as many heads to bounce them off of as possible. As in heads, I mean brains. We can't solve the mystery of this game by ourselves, you know. I presented the theories as a guy just coming in, and I want to piece together this game from the ground up.

[PMysterious]

I am the Vanilliest of Towns.

Okay, this is the claim Darth Baker has made. So, let's recap the claims and flips.

audade
PMysterious- VT
The Fonz
Mumble- Town GOAT (1 shot Commuter, Bodyguard, and Neighborizer)
Vorkuta

ofrhz

- VT

(Killed by Mafia Night 1)

VaultDweller- Town GOAT (1 shot Even Night Vig and Jailkeeper)

goobledygook

- VT

(Lynched Day 1)

Darth Baker- VT
rosterfoster
Croag
chickadee- Tracker
Rick Dalton- Tracker???
Almost 50-

Claims he'll go last.

Chemist1422

- Town GOAT (1 shot Neighborizer, Bodyguard, and Commuter)

(Killed by Mafia Night 2)

ethos

- VT (Killed by Vault)
Lil Uzi Vert- VT

That's what I have so far, but I do have a question.

Almost50, why do you want to claim last? If you're town, you'd claim right away, would you not?

[PMysterious]

Okay, so Roster is fine. All that's left are audade, The Fonz (who is replacing out), Vorkuta, Croag, and Almost50, who is going last.

Since Roster is likely to replace out at this point, whoever his replacement is will have to confirm if any of the people on this list are a power role or not, if he is indeed a vanilla cop.

[PMysterious]

Apparently, the person being replaced is "johnny sno", whoever that is. Okay, now I'm confused. I just joined this game for the sake of getting back into the system, only for someone who isn't even in this game to be replaced. What the heck is going on?

[PMysterious]

Okay, never mind, Johnnysno has just never posted when I came in. This is legitimately confusing. Why was this never put on the front page?

And better yet, why is everyone replacing out of this game?

[PMysterious]

Dalton. Who are you claiming to have visited?

He claimed to have visited VaultDweller, who then claimed that he was Ascetic. This caused Rick to redact the claim, so that's why it's left as a question.


As for Croag's claim, it's one less Town, yes, but even he admits he's basically dead weight except for being a VT. So, I think the croag lynch will be the safest option for the time being.

A50 said he already claimed. We had a bit about it. He's

VT

I have nothing to say about this for the time being. I'm just mentioning it here so I don't forget to bring it up later if I need to for whatever reason.

[PMysterious]

Deadline is paused at two days until a replacement is found.

Just thought I'd put this as a reminder so we don't panic too much about the lack of a hammer at this time. Although, I will ask this out of curiosity.

Mod: Can we get a vote count and has there been a(nother) replacement yet?

[PMysterious]

What do you mean visiting scummy targets.

My role doesn’t do anything except give the tracker

fake stuff

.

Okay, what on Earth is this supposed to mean? Give the tracker "fake stuff"? If you had just said here that you aren't the Tracker and you were only doing this to get a reaction, then okay, I'd be off your case on this, but no, instead, you say this. The only way this is possible is that either you're a Ninja or an Ascetic. Both do not give results to the Tracker when they go visit someone, AKA, "fake stuff". But I think I can take this one step further.

They have Ninja’s dude. There’s probably more trackers even.

The fact that you said this with confidence is rather worrying. And I like to point out another post that brings up Ascetics, and I want you to keep in mind the post number.

I tracked Vault to Ethos. He’s telling the truth.

Ding ding ding! We have a winner! I also happen to be ascetic. There is no way you could have tracked me

This is the nail. This is the first time an Ascetic is mentioned, but even looking back, the first time a Ninja was mentioned was (get this) DAY 1! I'm not exaggerating, Day 1 is the first time Ninja's have been brought up, without even thinking of the possibility that Ascetics are in the game. Check below for proof.

I’m informed. Scum has a ninja.

All of this leads to one conclusion. With how it was mentioned that Scum has a Ninja on the first day, the fact that this was said with confidence, and the recent post on giving the tracker "fake stuff", I can't see anything else other than this answer.

Rick, you ARE the

Mafia Ninja

.

UNVOTE: Croag

VOTE: Rick Dawson

If you wish to counter this point, I implore you to try.

[PMysterious]

Visitor targets and does nothing.

With ninjas in the game, my role does nothing and gives tracker a result.

I didn’t avoid the question, i thought we weren’t claiming actions.

I didn’t target Night 1. I targeted VD night 2. I wasn’t lying about the VD.

Keep in mind, you said you were visitor in this post. Now, regardless if VD is Ascetic or not, there's no way to confirm his claim that he killed ethos, the only reason you claimed Tracker would be to get some information out of him that he wouldn't otherwise give. Now the Scum KNOW that VD can not be bodyguarded or saved by a doctor, information that he wouldn't have given otherwise. On top of that, he hasn't even used his JK 1-shot according to his claim, which could be lost if not used tonight. You basically put a bullet on VD's head by forcing out the claim.

Hello.

I’m Rick Dalton.

I’m informed. Scum has a ninja.

Literally my 2nd post in the game. Do some research.

I want to ask, yes, it was your second post, but why. Why did you put that out there at all? There is legitimately NO REASON to put out there that Scum has a Ninja on the first day of the game.

Yet you said it with confidence, that is why I'm thinking you are the Ninja. Yes, it may only be the second post, but for what reason would you even think that Scum has a Ninja, if say, you are the visitor.

If we think I’m the ninja, we can have Chickadee track me and prove I’m not the ninja.

Also, you’ve contradicted yourself because when you replaced it, you pushed Fonz when Fonz was essentially pushing me for the same thing, except he had a better case.

You’re attacking me for the thing you attacked Fonz for attacking me with earlier essentially here.

I'm not putting the policy "Lynch All Liars" into this. I'm looking into your posts, and I'm wondering, why did you claim that there is at least one Ninja in the game at all? What reason do you have to assume that Mafia has a Ninja when you're not Mafia or a Mafia Ninja yourself? Just because you are Visitor does not mean that Ninjas exist in this game. The fact that you were quick to say that Scum have a Ninja, and not even consider the idea of an Ascetic is what troubles me. You blatantly ignored any other possibility of an opposite. You were quick to assume there were Ninjas, and until post 1059, there was NOTHING said about there being an Ascetic, which is something that could have very well been brought up sooner.

If you are Visitor, why immediately say that "Scum have a Ninja"? Not to mention that you said it with confidence, as if there was no other option.

Everything adds up less if you are a Visitor, and more if you are a Ninja.

"You went nowhere Night 1", a perfect line that can not be counter-argued by any tracker. "I targeted Vault on Night 2." Okay, suppose you didn't lie about that, but instead you claimed "Tracker" hoping to catch Vault in a situation that can line him up. He fell into the Scum's trap by claiming Ascetic. Now, he's a marked man. Perfect for the Ninja. On Night 3, the Ninja can kill Vault, and not be seen going anywhere. If the Tracker does that, you can easily claim that "Oh, I forgot to use my power last night. My bad", or something along the lines.

This is my theory on the matter. You lied, but it's not the reason I suspected you. I suspected you because you said something that keep in mind, given your circumstances, you should have no confidence in saying on the first day of the game. I wasn't around on Day 1, so I don't know if it was a joke or not, but even if it was, why would you say that with confidence? That is my concern on the posts. If you are not the Mafia Ninja, then none of these line up or make any sense. You visited no one on Night 1, okay, fine, maybe you don't want to use your role, but you then visited Vault on Night 2, which would mean that you could have posted a "Fake Result" had Vault actually died. You took that risk, and for what reason? On top of that, you claimed Tracker afterward, which again, doesn't make sense. If you are a Visitor, then why would you claim a different Power Role, other than to get something else out of Vault?

Your actions don't make any sense when you look at it the way I am, and that's why I'm saying you are the Mafia Ninja or maybe a different Mafia power role like Mafia Tracker (you did bring up the multiple tracker theory after all). Ninja is the most likely since you are the one that brought it up and said it with confidence.

[PMysterious]

Keep in mind, you said you were visitor in this post. Now, regardless if VD is Ascetic or not, there's no way to confirm his claim that he killed ethos, the only reason you claimed Tracker would be to get some information out of him that he wouldn't otherwise give. Now the Scum KNOW that VD can not be bodyguarded or saved by a doctor, information that he wouldn't have given otherwise. On top of that, he hasn't even used his JK 1-shot according to his claim, which could be lost if not used tonight. You basically put a bullet on VD's head by forcing out the claim.

This is also incorrect.

He already claimed, I had no way of knowing he had more to his role.

Wanna know how this is a perspective slip?

You specifically stated that I put a bullet on his head, implying that you know I’m not scum because it isn’t a bullet on him if I’m scum, it would be me outing a role, one which I would have had zero way of knowing he had anything else.

The track comment on Ethos is something he had already claimed.

You scum slipped in this post by implying that I am town, which proves your post is you pushing a mislynch on me not pushing me as scum.

I said you put a bullet on his head, because again, anyone in the Mafia can perform the Night Kill. So by pulling out the Ascetic, the scum team now can kill him, and since you have the Tracker asking you to prove your claim, you can literally do ANYTHING ELSE and the rest of the scum will not be tracked. You can for instance, be a Mafia tracker, and you can move around, not performing the Night Kill, and giving a result to the Tracker that you visited someone.

I want to ask, yes, it was your second post, but why. Why did you put that out there at all? There is legitimately NO REASON to put out there that Scum has a Ninja on the first day of the game.

Yet you said it with confidence, that is why I'm thinking you are the Ninja. Yes, it may only be the second post, but for what reason would you even think that Scum has a Ninja, if say, you are the visitor.

False.

I always put my Informed early on, that’s common etiquette.

I also have enough clout on site where I can true claim something like that and people think it’s not.

Almost50 and I real claimed masons in a gamenwhere we masons and nobody believed us because of the style of game we play.

This is yet another incorrect post.

I said it with confidence because it’s my role.

Actually, there’s not a single situation where I don’t say that with confidence, so this is just an entirely irrelevant case.

And also, if you think i’m The ninja, then why did the push on me start after I brought up Chickadee could confirm me?

You don’t want me as confirmed town, so you had to push me.

This is implying that I am scum, which I'm not. The claim was brought up not because of the timing, but because of the inconsistencies that were brought up. Claiming to be Tracker, then claiming Visitor as soon as Vault claimed he was Ascetic, and as mentioned later on, you claimed Tracker on Day 1, bringing another issue. The Informed, I'll get to another case.

That’s actually the main reason why you’re scum here.

I’m literally able to become confirmed town after tonight and you’re pushing me after the way that got brought up immediately after.

Again, it wasn't a timing issue. It was an inconsistency issue.

You act like I’m “assuming” there are ninjas when I straight up know, because it’s part of my role that tells me.

Do you not know what Informed means?

Admittedly, I had to look it up, but being Informed AND having another Power Role is a rather slippery slope. Keep in mind you initially claimed Tracker, which if we are to assume you are, being a Tracker that's informed of Ninjas is basically two investigative things at once.

I’m also the most consistent scum player on site where I’m known for having everything line up perfectly and never having anything that doesn’t add up, so that push is terrible too.

There’s also zero scum flipped in this game on whatever day this is we’re on, which means if I were scum, I would have an entire team able to make sure that all the tracks are covered, which proves your crap reasoning incorrect again.

This is based on your past play. For all we know, you could be saying this to just get people off of your case. However, it is entirely possible to change your playstyle if you need to.

I also claimed Tracker Day 1.

So literally your entire post is flat out wrong and misrepping.

It's not necessarily wrong. You claimed Tracker, then you later claimed Visitor when you found out you couldn't get a result on Vault because of his Ascetic. So, that makes it even worse. You back pedaled on a claim that you made 2 in game days before this event. Also, if you made the claim of Tracker on Day 1, then how come the Mafia has never killed you yet, regardless if there are Ninjas in the game or not? Considering that you claimed Tracker on Night 1, then why did you not check anyone on Night 1? If you were Visitor, okay, whatever, but as TRACKER!? You could have easily proven someone innocent on Night 1, yet you didn't. So, what was even the point of claiming Tracker at all when you wouldn't even use the Tracker's abilities on the night after? If you are Town, then why did you mislead everyone into thinking you were Tracker? If you are Tracker, then why did you not use your ability on the first night, even if there were Ninjas?

There are so many issues with your Tracker claim and when you realized that, you backpedaled into Visitor. The way you would be informed of a Ninja, is if either you are a Ninja or if your partner is a Ninja. My problem is the fact that everything here is inconsistent, and you have given no reason for your claims to be trustworthy. I called you an enigma earlier, and this is why. There is no way I can trust your words, because you've given no reason for me to do so. All I ask is a reason to trust you now, and not later.

[PMysterious]

Where they lose me is the part about ninjas. I think he’s trying to say that RD decided to out he was ninja by claiming that he was informed. I can’t see a world where any potential town cred outweighs keeping that information to himself as scum though.

To clarify on my statement, I'm saying that RD is Scum based on everything that has been outlined.

If he was Informed, then sure, that's fine. It would help the Tracker(s) know that their roles aren't 100% accurate. But then he claimed Tracker on top of that on the first day. And then on Night 2 after he visited Vault, he confirmed Vault's actions, causing Vault to claim he's Ascetic. Then, RD backpedals to claim Visitor afterwards for literally no reason other than maybe the actual tracker coming out. Keep in mind, on the (at the time un cc'd) Tracker claim, if he was Tracker, then he would have at least gone somewhere on Night 1 to check somebody, which he didn't.

The sudden backpedal makes it all the more suspicious. Admittedly, I only thought of the roles that were in the game that I was aware of when I made the RD is the Ninja post. The Ninja gives a false result, which is what Rick claims his role does. That's why I thought he was the Mafia Ninja. I still think that RD is scum based on the previous actions and how none of it lines up in my mind.

[PMysterious]

Okay, so the Tracker was nightkilled. Now for the question. Mumble, you claimed to be a 1-Shot Bodyguard alongside your other powers.

Why did you not protect Chikadee despite the claim? You only claimed to neighbor someone on Night 1, with no claim of you using your Bodyguard power. So, why didn't you use it on the un cc'd Tracker?

VOTE: Mumble

[PMysterious]

In fairness, if there's a ninja, the tracker was not all that useful to us.

In this case, quite the contrary. Rick asked for the Tracker to check him to confirm his Visitor claim. If there are Ninjas in the game like Rick claimed, the fact that Rick could have visited a player could have proven his claim to be true, thus be a confirmed Town. If Mumble is a 1-Shot Bodyguard, then he should have protected Chickadee. If it costs me my own life, I'd have protected the un cc'd Tracker in a heartbeat, regardless if there were Ninjas or not. Backing up the claim of a Visitor or any other power role could be crucial to piecing together the puzzle, but now with Chickadee dead, we can't even do that, unless there is another Tracker.

[PMysterious]

I accused him of being a Mafia Ninja, a role that doesn't confirm a visit to the Tracker. If the Tracker came back with a positive result, it would have confirmed that Rick wasn't the Ninja at least. So now, with the Tracker dead, this provides a few theories.

1. There is a Ninja that killed Chickadee mostly so we wouldn't get anymore information on Rick, since most of us were scumreading him yesterday.

2. There is a Ninja and Rick is that ninja, and if Chickadee was alive, then the result would be negative, thus forcing more suspicion.

3. There is no Ninja and it was a bluff by Rick to get us to think there are Ninjas. However, this also means that if the Mafia performs kills, then they could be found out by the Tracker, thus requiring them to kill the un CC'd Tracker.

Regardless, all of these results would have required the Tracker to be killed, the un CC'd Tracker, mind you. So, without a doubt, we must ask. If Mumble is a 1-Shot Bodyguard as he claimed, then why did he not protect Chickadee?

[PMysterious]

Why would you claim visitor as ninja, a role that specifically cannot be seen visiting?

If Rick is scum it's likely he has a visiting role and someone ELSE on his team is a ninja. In that case they have nothing to fear from the tracker but a lot to gain if Rick gets false confirmed.

If there is a Ninja AND Rick is Scum, then why would they kill the one person that could have made Rick look town? It doesn't make sense in that regard.

So we have a few questions that need answering.

1.

Why did Mafia kill the Tracker?

2.

If Mumble

is

1-Shot Bodyguard, then why did he not protect Chickadee?

These two questions could very well be connected, and answering them might crack this game wide open. At this point, it's worth a shot.

[PMysterious]

I'm not going to take a bullet for someone I don't know is town. I know my own alignment.

That's the point of Mafia. You DON'T know if anyone on the Town side is actually town. But considering that again, Chickadee was un-cc'd, that should be a decent indicator that she was Town.

You SHOULD have bit the bullet for Chickadee to survive the night, but you didn't. In that case,

what did you do on the previous night

?

[PMysterious]

Based on your words Mumble, you seem to be getting really defensive about this accusation. So, allow me to counter your points.

1. There is a vigilante yes, but it was an Ascetic

1-shot

Vigilante, and Vault has stated that he's already used his shot.

2. Even in a closed game, there is always something to counter claim or even safe claim. Heck, of all things, your claim just happened to be of a role that died the night before the mass claim.

I will point this out as much as I need to,

the Tracker was un cc'd

, meaning that if you were a 1-Shot Bodyguard and a 1-shot Commuter, at the very least you could have Bodyguarded Chickadee and give her another result to give the town.

So, now that the Mafia killed the Tracker, and you "commuted" the previous night, there is a theory I wish to present.

I was on the right track accusing Rick of being Mafia, but the Ninja claim was hard to prove. That's because there are no Ninjas. The Ninjas were a facade to force the Tracker out during the mass-claim. In that case, protecting Chickadee would be the #1 priority, but you didn't. In an act of selfishness, you did not bodyguard Chickadee, the un cc'd Tracker. That's because, you wanted the Tracker to die.

You and Rick are

BOTH

part of the Mafia team. Rick was never informed of Ninjas, he made it up to make the Tracker feel not as useful. You didn't protect the Tracker, because you knew there were no Ninjas, and Chickadee could have exposed any member of the Mafia.

I am calling for a Mumble lynch today, and then Rick tomorrow if there is no sight of a Mafia Ninja.

[PMysterious]

I thus deduce you ARE the Ninja Scum yourself, and the claim to have commuted is to cover up just in case

roster

had target you and got No Result. If course

roster

would NOT target you because you claimed NOT VT, but hey.. you don't even know how to think.

How would that work? A Vanilla Cop only checks for if role is a Vanilla or not. A Ninja only is unable to be seen by the Tracker, Watcher, or anything which investigates actions. So why would the Vanilla Cop be disrupted by the Ninja's actions? The only role that the Ninja would disrupt (that was claimed) is the Tracker, and keep in mind, the Tracker got killed. The Ninja killing the Tracker over the Vanilla Cop is a questionable idea. If you meant to say Chickadee, it wouldn't matter.

This is why I think there are no ninjas, and it was a bluff by Rick. Mumble is still Mafia, no question about that, but Rick is also Mafia based on the "informed" nature of the role not being true.

[PMysterious]

This is why I think there are no ninjas, and it was a bluff by Rick.

So he just got lucky that there was a tracker?

He claimed Tracker Day 1, which alongside the Ninja information, would make sense. This would be crucial, as this prevented Rick from being accused of being Mafia. Note that he retracted his claim after Vault came out and said he was Ascetic. This was the time the mass claim came about. So if the Mafia were to learn of any investigative roles, that would be the moment. Since Rick retracted his claim, he no longer counter claimed the actual Tracker who came out, because of the mass claim. It was a stroke of luck, and the primary role the Mafia needed to target. A Vanilla Cop, they could leave that alive since all a Vanilla Cop does is prove if someone is a power role or not. A Tracker, however, would go against their plans, as there is no ninja for them to use for the kill.

That makes Chickadee the primary target for the night kill. I'm not saying Mumble didn't know this, but not using the 1-shot Bodyguard on Chickadee or even roster the night after the mass claim is suspicious. The defensive stance and the claim of the report on Almost50 only adds more to the claim that Mumble is scum.

[PMysterious]

Wow, if I can say this without seeming mean, that, was a coward move for Mumble. Whoever comes in, I wish them the best of luck in surviving today, because as of now, it just seems flat out impossible to me that this is

not

a Mafia slot.

[PMysterious]

@Mumble: Was your mom too busy screwing a lamp she forgot to teach you manners? You sound butt-hurt your mouth should be considered for a pig barnyard.

Now if you don't stop swearing I will make sure to have your tongue shoved up your own ass so you can taste the shit you're made of.

This was uncalled for. If this is the reason Mumble replaced out, I'll be a bit more forgiving toward him on that. No matter if Mumble's slot is scum or not, there is no reason to resort to posts like this. It's not funny, it's not cool, and it's not fun for anyone involved.

I suggest taking some time to calm down, as you clearly are riled up, something not good for any Mafia game.

[PMysterious]

Mumble getting flustered and going down makes sense from PMysterious to try and move it back onto me, even though he was pushing Mumble as my partner.

So, PMyst, what do you think of this? Is he your partner and you suddenly gonna back away from him?

Mumble getting flustered and going down makes sense from PMysterious to try and move it back onto me, even though he was pushing Mumble as my partner.

So, PMyst, what do you think of this? Is he your partner and you suddenly gonna back away from him?

I'm adamant that the Mumble slot is Mafia, in fact, he basically confirmed it. I have no reason to back away from this slot, so my vote will stay.

Mumble/PMysterious/Fonz makes sense as a scum team a lot actually.

I remember talking about how PMysterious called our Fonz for going after me, but then PMysterious later went after me for the exact same thing, and nobody acknowledged me bringing that up.

I think that’s a solid solve.

I only went after Fonz because I didn't like how it was handled on The Fonz's end. He just said "Lynch All Liars", without any actual reason. I brought up my reasons in thinking that you are Scum.

Spoiler:

In fairness, if there's a ninja, the tracker was not all that useful to us.

In this case, quite the contrary. Rick asked for the Tracker to check him to confirm his Visitor claim. If there are Ninjas in the game like Rick claimed, the fact that Rick could have visited a player could have proven his claim to be true, thus be a confirmed Town. If Mumble is a 1-Shot Bodyguard, then he should have protected Chickadee. If it costs me my own life, I'd have protected the un cc'd Tracker in a heartbeat, regardless if there were Ninjas or not. Backing up the claim of a Visitor or any other power role could be crucial to piecing together the puzzle, but now with Chickadee dead, we can't even do that, unless there is another Tracker.

I accused him of being a Mafia Ninja, a role that doesn't confirm a visit to the Tracker. If the Tracker came back with a positive result, it would have confirmed that Rick wasn't the Ninja at least. So now, with the Tracker dead, this provides a few theories.

1. There is a Ninja that killed Chickadee mostly so we wouldn't get anymore information on Rick, since most of us were scumreading him yesterday.

2. There is a Ninja and Rick is that ninja, and if Chickadee was alive, then the result would be negative, thus forcing more suspicion.

3. There is no Ninja and it was a bluff by Rick to get us to think there are Ninjas. However, this also means that if the Mafia performs kills, then they could be found out by the Tracker, thus requiring them to kill the un CC'd Tracker.

Regardless, all of these results would have required the Tracker to be killed, the un CC'd Tracker, mind you. So, without a doubt, we must ask. If Mumble is a 1-Shot Bodyguard as he claimed, then why did he not protect Chickadee?

Why would you claim visitor as ninja, a role that specifically cannot be seen visiting?

If Rick is scum it's likely he has a visiting role and someone ELSE on his team is a ninja. In that case they have nothing to fear from the tracker but a lot to gain if Rick gets false confirmed.

If there is a Ninja AND Rick is Scum, then why would they kill the one person that could have made Rick look town? It doesn't make sense in that regard.

So we have a few questions that need answering.

1.

Why did Mafia kill the Tracker?

2.

If Mumble

is

1-Shot Bodyguard, then why did he not protect Chickadee?

These two questions could very well be connected, and answering them might crack this game wide open. At this point, it's worth a shot.

All of this, in conjunction with the opening day post, and another post I’ll bring up in a second, highly indicates Mumble/Pm scum team. I actually think they had a plan to incriminate SS and myself together, which seems to be a thing happening anyways

Actually, I had no thoughts on SS being Scum, and I have no reason to think SS is Scum. I think SS is town given the circumstances. So far, the two most likely scum in my mind are you and Mumble, with Mumble being the priority.

This is why I think there are no ninjas, and it was a bluff by Rick.

So he just got lucky that there was a tracker?

He claimed Tracker Day 1, which alongside the Ninja information, would make sense. This would be crucial, as this prevented Rick from being accused of being Mafia. Note that he retracted his claim after Vault came out and said he was Ascetic. This was the time the mass claim came about. So if the Mafia were to learn of any investigative roles, that would be the moment. Since Rick retracted his claim, he no longer counter claimed the actual Tracker who came out, because of the mass claim. It was a stroke of luck, and the primary role the Mafia needed to target. A Vanilla Cop, they could leave that alive since all a Vanilla Cop does is prove if someone is a power role or not. A Tracker, however, would go against their plans, as there is no ninja for them to use for the kill.

That makes Chickadee the primary target for the night kill. I'm not saying Mumble didn't know this, but not using the 1-shot Bodyguard on Chickadee or even roster the night after the mass claim is suspicious. The defensive stance and the claim of the report on Almost50 only adds more to the claim that Mumble is scum.

This is a misrep and an incorrect timeline.

This all happened before the mass claim, and was a main cause of the mass claim.

I also specifically made my comments and claim BECAUSE of VD, so yes, my retraction came after VD spoke, as it was a reaction test, I am THE reaction test player with proven results.

There are no issues with what I said. I just the said the Mass claim came about around the time you retracted, I never specified before or after. In this case, the retraction happened before the mass claim.

This is a crucial part of the timeline, as because of the retraction, the actual Tracker could come out safely with some results to spare. It's coincidental that you retracted your Tracker claim, then the actual Tracker came out in the mass claim. Then again, who would counter claim the Tracker Day 1? And also, if you were the (at the time prior to the mass claim), the un-cc'd Tracker, then why didn't the Mafia kill you? There's no reason for them to not kill the un cc'd Tracker, as if any information got out, it would be information that could be used against them eventually.

Note that when the actual tracker came out, the Mafia immediately killed her, but not when you were the un cc'd Tracker,

for 2 whole nights

. It would only make sense for that to be the case if you were Mafia. If you were lying as Town, Scum would still kill you, but you somehow stayed alive for 2 nights after your Tracker claim. If you're town, then how in the world is that possible?

[PMysterious]

but not when you were the un cc'd Tracker, for 2 whole nights.

Rick claimed D2, Chick claimed D3 and Rick retracted, we're in D4.

Did I miss something there?

Pretty sure I claimed it Day 1.

Yeah, it was Day 1 when the claim happened (which goes back to my original point of Rick SOMEHOW being alive for 2 whole nights as the un-cc'd Tracker. Something that regardless if there are Ninjas or not, would usually never happen).

The initial claim happened Day 1, the mass-claim happened on Day 3, before the mass-claim, Rick retracted his Tracker claim, which he held for 2 nights prior. This means that when Chickadee claimed Tracker, there would be no counter-claims.

I really feel like Something_Smart was being setup by PM and Mumble, though, and Titus coming in attacking him makes me worried.

Because it does make sense, but i don’t feel like SS makes sense to be scum when he is scum, if that makes sense.

Again, I have no Scum read against Something_Smart, and I would not advocate for his lynch at this current time, especially over Penguin Power and Rick Dalton.

As much as I like Penguins, I'm adamant in thinking that this slot is Mafia based on the night actions and the defensive nature of Mumble when being called out. Not only that, but mentioning that he reported Almost50 for breaking the "no throwing" rule, shows that at least, Mumble knows that Almost50 is Town, something that given his claims, he should not have known if he was Town.

All in all, his actions give the idea that Mumble is Scum, and even though we just had someone replace the slot, I don't see any reason for this slot to not be lynched.

[PMysterious]

+ Chemist - JOAT (neighborizer, commuter, BG)

Not sure why there is a tracker enabler with one tracker. Would have made more sense for scum to go after an unprotectable slot to disable the tracker than the tracker who could possibly be protected.

The Mafia likely have a Tracker of their own, so killing the enabler would turn one of their members into a glorified VT.

[PMysterious]

So. S_S maybe fake.. yet scum may have a Tracker of their own so he may be telling the truth.
RD maybe fake.. but nobody took him seriously on his Tracker claim so that's why he wasn't shot.
Mumble made a ridiculously bad choice of action, but S_S also told him to, and he's bad anyway.

My conclusion would be LYNCH S_S. If S_S told Mumble to commute that's conclusive evidence S_S is scum. Why the freak would anyone think the commute shot needed to be used up in this situation? I could see "poor thinking" leading to a no protect on the Tracker (but I agree it would have been much more sensible to protect the VC instead).

But what I'm suggesting here is THEY'RE BOTH SCUM. S_S & Mumble are scum together and the FAKE claim of having neighborized Saudade (now S_S) was made to cover up for the "interventions" to be had when Mumble says/does something stupid and his p needs to explain it on his behalf claiming "I/he said so and so in the neighborhood".

Gonna keep my vote on PP for now, but I'm willing to switch to S_S if it gains momentum.

I disagree on protecting the Vanilla Cop over the tracker in this case. The mass claim happened and so all of the power roles are out. Even if they checked the Vanillas, then the standard Vanilla Cop would only show Vanilla or Not Vanilla, with Mafia Goons being considered Vanilla. So even if one of the Mafia Goons was disguised, he could just claim VT and the Vanilla Cop wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

Either way, the fact that Mumble commuted over using his bodyguard on either the VC or the Tracker is a huge problem. Not to mention the defensive nature when he got called out. Because of Mumble's actions, I'm going to keep my vote on Penguin Power throughout the day.

[PMysterious]

Almost: Yeah its a funny one. There's just a hell of a lot that feels off about PM. He was very much my second suspect a lot of yesterday for all the individual scumminess reasons I list above. Then he goes for Rick, and all of a sudden he's taking a strong stand, and the timing didn't really feel bus-y. But the logic was so contradictory to his earlier push on me that it doesn't feel like a natural thought process.

Okay, I will admit, it didn't seem natural. The reason I wasn't sure about it at first was because there wasn't a lot of strong reasoning to just go after Rick from what I saw at the time. When I went back through it all, that's when my mind was like "Wait a minute, I think Fonz might be onto something". Rick's claims and other activities just don't add up, which shouldn't be the case if he was just a visitor.

I could have been accidentally misrepping. I was basing off memory. My bad if I did.

Misrepping or not, the un-cc'd Tracker claim going unchecked is what worries me. Again, Scum would have easily NK'd you, whether to prove your Tracker claim false or to kill an actual Tracker, but the kill did not happen. The fact that you lasted as the un cc'd Tracker is what concerns me.

[PMysterious]

What the damn hell?!

Wait a second.

Chemist died night 2. If you believe Mumble slot is scum, you can’t believe that he was the actual night kill.

I was pushing at Mumble that day, and Chemist was conversing with me.

I think I WAS the kill target. Chemist saved me and died for me with his body guard action.

That’s why the whole “why wasn’t Rick killed?!?” talk has been coming up. Scum tried to kill me, and failed!

I looked through Chemist's ISO, and based on that, I find it more likely that he protected Roster and not you. He kept on saying that Roster was a bad lynch, and he barely mentioned you at all. So what's likely (unless Roster's replacement can confirm this to be false), Chemist neighbored Roster, and Roster told Chemist that he was Vanilla Cop, a role that could be useful in finding the other power roles, including those of Scum. Chemist would definitely trust the person he used his Neighbor power on over a guy who just said he was Tracker in the open, yet didn't even use his power on the first night (as found out in Day 3 with the Visitor claim).

If this event did actually happen the way you describe it, then it would confirm you town, but based on Chemist's ISO, it is unlikely that he used his Bodyguard ability on Rick.

[PMysterious]

I have a theory that this game has scum in it and that they're messing with us. I'll explain later.

If you have a theory, it's best to explain it now, and not later. Granted, this post is a day old, but it's still worth putting out there. At this point, we have nothing to hide, and hiding a potential theory is concerning, to say the least.

[PMysterious]

Well, not gonna lie, I'm actually surprised. Not only was I wrong, but Mumble was telling the truth about his role.

In what world are there 2 power roles that have the exact same powers in a closed setup like this? That's what I thought, but now, I'm not so sure what to think anymore.

[PMysterious]

Are we in Lylo, and if we're not, can I votepark on VD?

Let’s do Darth Baker.

Looking at the ISO, I actually agree with this one. I can't really think of anything Darth Baker has said that actually comes off as Town. It's one thing to stick to the character, it's another to basically supply nothing of use.

Are we in Lylo, and if we're not, can I votepark on VD?

Given the circumstances, it probably isn't LYLO, but it is getting close to that. 4 scum in 17 players is a lot, and considering that somehow we haven't even hit 1 despite having 8 players dead, that's highly unlikely. But still, voteparking on VD at the moment does not seem like a good idea. He's the un-cc'd (Ascetic) Vig/JK, and a vote park on an un cc'd player is a bit scummy.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Of the players we have, I honestly don't know who is Town or Mafia anymore. I thought I had an idea, but when Mumble/PP flipped Town (especially the role he claimed), my perception of this game changed entirely. I'll need to recap everybody. The only one I can say for sure is Town is Vault, and that's because he's un-cc'd. Other than that, nothing. At this point, almost everyone is scummy in some way, shape, or form, that it's bothering me.

[PMysterious]

Okay, so, of the players that are left, here are the claims.

Something_Smart- Tracker Enabler, neighbored by Mumble on Night 1.

Rick- Visitor, claimed Tracker on Day 1, informed of Ninjas.

Vault- Vig/JK, killed Ethos Night 2. Claimed he was Ascetic after Rick attempted to claim he targeted VD with tracking.

Darth Baker- VT

The Fonz- VT

PMysterious (Me)- VT

Almost50- VT (KEYNOTE: Claimed last, and even asked to claim last.)

Vork- VT

Lil Uzi- VT

So, of the claims. Rick was the one that did the most when it comes to claims and Almost50 asked to claim last, which he eventually did.

These claims all came from Day 3, and since then, there have been no retractions. So, I have a few questions that I must ask.

S_S: It's confirmed at this point that Mumble neighbored you, but outside of Night 3, did you communicate with Mumble in any way?

Rick: You claimed Visitor recently, which would fall in line with the info of Ninjas, but are there any modifiers on the role? Like how Vault is Ascetic, is there anything you need to inform us about?

Almost50: I asked this before, but to recap, was there any particular reason to claim last?

I would like answers to all of these questions if at all possible.

[PMysterious]

S_S: It's confirmed at this point that Mumble neighbored you, but outside of Night 3, did you communicate with Mumble in any way?

I mean we talked in the hood before N3, but not really about anything important.

At this point, almost anything Mumble and you have talked about is important if it retains to the game.

Nah, I have no other modifiers.

So you're basically a VT at this point.

The Power Roles are now glorified VTs, so we'll have to do any of our deduction throughout the day. If I were to take a guess through probability, the Mafia are in 1 Power Role and 2 VT slots, or maybe 1 VT and 2 Power Roles. Either way, the Mafia likely possess at least one of the VT slots and at least one Power Role slot.

This can help narrow down the playing field.

Vault is most likely to be Town of the Power roles, with the claim of being an Ascetic Vig/JK, and considering that he actually did act.

Through the VTs, ignoring myself, here is my list from least scummy to most scummy based on play.

Lil Uzi
Fonz
Almost50
Vork
Darth Baker

Darth Baker hasn't provided any posts actually worth a thing since the beginning of the game, and overall feels lackluster compared to the other players. It wouldn't surprise me if he's been trying to lay low.

As for Rick and S_S, it will depend on if there are Ninjas or not as Rick claims, if there are Ninjas and Rick is indeed a Visitor, then S_S is a good candidate for Mafia. If there is no Ninja, then it is the other way around.

My predictions for Mafia are as follows.

Almost50: I asked this before, but to recap, was there any particular reason to claim last?

2- Because I wanted scum to worry about me having a different role than the one I claimed, so it'd be harder for them to fake claim. I think it paid off and most of them just claimed VT.

I was about to post the post without this, and I will say, it's solid considering the mathematics of 2 VTs being Scum compared to 2 Power Roles. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and say that you are not Mafia for the time being. NOW to the actual predictions.

Rick/S_S
Darth Baker
Vork

That's 4 players in this list, and I think I nailed down all the Mafia in this group. The question now is, which ones are right? Rick/S_S comes down to if there are Ninjas or not.

The other players not in that group of players piled up as scum candidates, are my current Town reads (A50 is leaning Town at the moment).

[PMysterious]

Spoiler: Neighborhood synopsis

Mumble: You were my biggest townread, I think Croag could be scum.
Mumble (2 days later): Please say something here.
-johhny sno replaces Saudade-
Johhny: why did you townread my slot?
Mumble: Saudade was posting in a way that he usually does as town, and most of the other players were pretty bad.
Johhny: I suppose, normally the way Saudade posts gets him suspected so I was surprised that you townread him.
Mumble: How are you feeling about the game?
Johhny: I don't trust VD, the claim could have been a scum panic claim, but he was wagoned fast so I may not vote him right away. Scum seem to be happy with how the game's going, since not much is going on.
Johhny: Who do you want to add to the hood next?
Mumble: I'm only one-shot.
Mumble (4 days later): What happened? What do you think of Rick's lie?
Johhny: I've been busy. Rick lying isn't really indicative of much.

Mumble: Does Rick lie a lot when he's town?
-S_S replaces johhny sno-
S_S: Yeah, he does.

Mumble: Let me know what you're thinking once you've read up.
S_S: My thoughts on reading up usually suck, so don't expect much.
S_S: You thought Rick could be town, why is that? I think he could be too, but you never know with him.
S_S: I'm thinking PMysterious, The Fonz, Vaultdweller, Chickadee, and Rick are town. I'd like to lynch outside of them.
Mumble: I thought Rick might be town because you told me he lies as town frequently.
Mumble:

My gut says LUV is scum. Maybe Vork as well.

Mumble: Should I guard anyone tonight?
Mumble: Looking at how the wagon went, Rick could be scum too.
S_S: Because scum were trying to save Rick?
S_S: I wouldn't guard anyone tonight.

S_S: LUV has left absolutely no impression on me thus far.

S_S: Scum-Rick usually has a good claim but weird arguments, this is the opposite though. I think he's more likely town.
Mumble: (In response to "Because scum were trying to save Rick?") Yeah, Croag's wagon went so quickly compared to Rick's.
S_S: That was probably just because deadline, but you are right that Rick is hard to wagon as scum.
S_S: Scum-Rick probably kills me tonight.
Mumble: I just meant that Croag's wagon popped up closer to deadline.
S_S: Did you guard somebody?
Mumble: No, I didn't.
-PenguinPower replaces Mumble-
S_S: You should read all of D4. Mumble did some weird stuff.
PP: Oh, he freaked out on A50, that's happened in the past. Why didn't you want him to guard Chickadee?
S_S: Cause of the likely ninja, I figured scum would hit the macho or the ascetic claim.
PP: Who's macho/ascetic?
S_S: I'm macho, VD is ascetic.

Okay, thank you for the synopsis. I have bolded the key points that peak my attention. Mumble not only had a candidate for scum in LUV, but also had a reason to think LUV was scum (basically, LUV hasn't done anything to prove he's Town to Mumble). We can do whatever we need to with this information, but thank you for bringing it to light S_S.

[PMysterious]

I'd prefer A50 out of those three.

Wanting to lynch me in LyLo/MyLo has alwa6s proven to be a scumtell of late.

This implies that we're actually in LyLo or MyLo, neither of which are confirmed. This implies that there are 4 Mafia remaining, a fact that we don't even know for certain. It is possible that there are only 3 Mafia, in which case we would not be in LyLo, and since we have an odd number of players, MyLo is not an option either.

So, with they way you're saying this, you seem to know that there are 4 Mafia, am I wrong to assume this?

[PMysterious]

am I wrong to assume this?

Yes, but I'm not going to trouble myself explaining. If you wish to get a hint yourself, here's a game that has just ended

I've been pushed by scum since D2 all the way and it condensed in LyLo. Wanting to lynch me in LYLO is a scumtell, and if it isn't confirmed then I will confirm it to you.. 17 palyers setups usually do have 4 scums (except for that one I'm linking, in which Scum!Bingle used that argument to try and mislead the town into believing it was also a 4-scum team, and challenged me to find ONE game of 17 players that had only 3 scums in it. My response was "this one" because I knew 17 players setups always have 4 scums)

Note: This is a bloody NORMAL. The game I link wasn't.

Again, this is based on evidence that we do not have. Assuming that 17 player setups always have 4 scum is not correct based on the one game you posted. Whether this is a normal game or not, it is still possible that there are 3 scum and not 4. Going back to what S_S said, the power roles in this game are on the weaker side of the spectrum, with the investigative roles being x-shot, and the only protective roles being 2 1-shot Bodyguards, an unrealistic notion in any other game. Considering that we just had 2 players have the exact same Jack of All Trades role, any expectations of common knowledge can be thrown out the window, including the general notion that there are 4 scum in a 17 player game.

@PM: Btw, you missed that I only listed THREE scums still. So, I kinda wonder how you came to the conclusion that I have "mod-confirmed" info that there are 4 scums here with that right before your very eyes. Are you selectively reading? Are you applying for the "Suspect A50 in every single game just because" club?

You only listed 3 scum, but why did you mention the LyLo part at all? That is my concern in regards to that post. You only brought up 3, but you said (with confidence mind you) that we are in LyLo. Why would you mention we're in LyLo if it is theoretically not the case? I only say theoretically since there "could" be 4 Mafia, not just 3.

I want to give you the benefit of a doubt here, but your word choice is bothering me.

[PMysterious]

Looking at the argument, assuming there are 4 or 3 at this rate, doesn't seem like it will actually accomplish anything. The wording caught me off guard, which is why I asked. On top of that, Almost, the words you capitalized, almost seemed like you were being defensive on your stance.

Not saying that it's troubling, but it's something I noticed. I will not speak on the matter right now, since we should be lynching Mafia anyway, regardless of the numbers. If there are 4, then okay, there are 4. If there are 3, then there are 3. We can't assume there are 3 or 4, based on the fact that, we simply don't know. Given what has already happened, common sense be damned.

[PMysterious]

Okay, not gonna lie, I got caught off guard. I had Rick as scum, but backtracked. I had Rick as Scum, but I backtracked.... now I feel bad about doing so. Good game.