Mini 2097 - Make Me Regret This Game Over

[Menalque]

What was it that made you think so strongly I was mafia?

EP was completely off his meta before you repped in

[jjh927]

Did anyone who scumread me at any point in this game actually meta me at all?

[Menalque]

Also @everyone I always welcome feedback

@mastina just in case you missed this

[Menalque]

Did anyone who scumread me at any point in this game actually meta me at all?

Tiny skim

[jjh927]

You might want to revisit your case on me and my rebuttal to it with hindsight, menalque

[jjh927]

Especially considering you came up with that case on me because I was diverting attention away from EP and onto TL

[Menalque]

You might want to revisit your case on me and my rebuttal to it with hindsight, menalque

Yeah, that’s fair

I mean I did go back and forth on you quite a bit, and where it really counted I voted TL over you (and I didn’t think you were partners — I think, I always struggle to remember my reads)

[Menalque]

So what’s the broader takeaway? Don’t trust a meta-SR on someone just because they’re normally much more active?

[Menalque]

It’s just tricky bc I feel like that was a large part of how I got onto elements (like the emptiness of his ISO on D1)

[Menalque]

I’m really interested to read the scum pt tbh

[jjh927]

I don't really think I should have had to fullclaim in order to get TL lynched there over myself but it's acceptable because Eth0s was angling for that

[jjh927]

I’m really interested to read the scum pt tbh

Yeah I REALLY want to see it

[jjh927]

I need to know why they killed my dude deb

[jjh927]

Also I want to see the reaction to me correctly identifying TL as disloyal

[Menalque]

I don't really think I should have had to fullclaim in order to get TL lynched there over myself but it's acceptable because Eth0s was angling for that

Part of the problem was I was TRing ethos more than you mostly and I had those early doubts which got reinforced rereading your D1

Man, I wish there was a way to see how I’d have read Eth0s this game without having shared the pt with him D1/N1

This is another example of neighbour powers tending to lead towards TRs

[mastina]

Shit so why did deb have a backup that was probably of that

I mean...I wasn't convinced there was a scum damage mechanic D1, but after DEB flipped, I thought, "there's no way that the mod gives a backup healer to the town if the scum can't deal damage".

Apparently, there is.

[mastina]

Also @everyone I always welcome feedback

@mastina just in case you missed this

You did fairly well, you just had a bit of a tunnel which was wrong on jjh.

[Menalque]

What do you think I was doing wrong in terms of thinking to arrive at scum!jjh? (@mastina but also @jjh)

Like I know I was wrong but I don’t necessarily see how I could have avoided SRing him there after the kori lynch and the initial aggression towards my slot

[jjh927]

This is another example of neighbour powers tending to lead towards TRs

This doesn't have to happen. Just being aware of the psychology that leads to this kind of thing is a step in the right direction. Good use of PTs tends to be cooperative, and cooperating tends to lead to you thinking someone is aligned with you. Factor in that it is generally easier for someone to tailor manipulation to an individual than to a part of a group.

I think my ability to place people in PTs is well above my reads in main thread

[jjh927]

What do you think I was doing wrong in terms of thinking to arrive at scum!jjh? (@mastina but also @jjh)

Like I know I was wrong but I don’t necessarily see how I could have avoided SRing him there after the kori lynch and the initial aggression towards my slot

My initial aggression towards your slot was entirely because you immediately scumread me when you came in after the Korina lynch with no regard for the actual reasoning behind the lynch. I think if you'd looked harder at the actual reasons for why we lynched Korina, and furthermore realised that it wasn't at all my fault that the quickhammer occurred because Korina fucking self hammered, we wouldn't have been in that mess.

To reiterate that point, Korina self hammered and you blamed a mislynch that hadn't flipped yet entirely on me for exposing a lie that never should have been told

[jjh927]

To what extent was that manipulated by Eth0s?

[mastina]

Like I know I was wrong but I don’t necessarily see how I could have avoided SRing him there after the kori lynch and the initial aggression towards my slot

Experience.
Experience, of knowing that most scum, especially veteran scum, don't push for mislynches early-on that hard and that aggressively and insist that a town player will flip scum until the very last second.

That trait CAN come from scum--but if it does, it's very specifically scum mimicking townplay because that level of aggression against town so early is almost always from town.

In other words.
You'd actually have had a far better chance of being right on jjh if Korina had flipped scum; Korina flipping town only strengthened the reasons for why jjh would be town.

You have to keep in mind.
Being wrong, even from veteran skilled experienced players, != being scum.
You can, in VERY SPECIFIC CIRCUMSTANCES, burden of proficiency them--but if you look at burden of proficiency on the wiki, it's listed as a logical fallacy for damn good reason. Because thinking "you're a veteran skilled player, you must be better than this" is often fallacious in most circumstances. (Like I said, there are some specific situations where burden of proficiency isn't a fallacy and is actually valid, but I'm not sure I can describe them? I can point to instances, but I can't generically explain them.)

Town are going to be wrong more often than not--even good town.
As the uninformed majority, town are uninformed; they make conclusions which are uninformed and thus are inaccurate.
Scum are going to be right more often than not--as the informed minority, they have the information to make conclusions which are based on information they know to be true and thus are going to be more accurate.

[Sujimichi]

mastina, absent my tunnel on you I would appreciate feedback and/or tips on how I can do better.

[Menalque]

To what extent was that manipulated by Eth0s?

I can't believe that actually just happened

Clearly no one in this game gives a shit about what seems like really sound logic to me

have a fun catch up lol. town just goofed on an unprecedented level.

....moderately

[Gamma Emerald]

Also who successfully protected against the final scumkill?

That actually didn't happen but schadd only posted the relevant kill so lol
Yeah schadd was a help but I need to leave better instructions for my backup mod next time