Open 769: Venrob's PYP X/Y (Town Wins)

[Wooper]

go to bed rub and think about what you said.

daddy ducky is truly a sight to behold I'd be scared to disappoint you

this made me snort
thanks nomz (i think)

[Billy Pilgrim]

Catching up pages 14-16

@rb - can you explain both parts of 334? Also, that was a quick change from 334 to 337, what happened in between there?

@Fetched - what part of rb's reads did you like in post 341? I dont think you had a reads list up to that point, but I do think you were scumreading Skitt, and at least initially rb said they were town reading Skitt and thought the wagon was bad?


Pages 14 and 15, Kerset does not come off well here. This seems like a weird fight to pick with rb and it's almost immediately from rb's first post in the game.

@Kerset - what's the scum motivation for waiting until page 14 to pop into the game? Didnt the setup say that scum got to talk during the draft? If so isnt it less likely that someone popping in late like this would be scum?

@Aaron - 364 what convinced you to vote Kerset other than rb asking you to?

@rb - why are you comfortable excited even to have Aaron o the wagon given your early read?

I haven't played with scum Luca yet, but this does feel like the town Luca I've played with.

This Kerset/rb 1v1 doesn't seem right. S_S pointing this out makes me dislike S_S's slot less.

@Skitt - I did forget that i voted him, but regardless i dont see how the fact that i voted him addresses my concern with you. You pushed him w/o a vote. You redirecting my concern by saying that I was voting him feels bad.

[Something_Smart]

This Kerset/rb 1v1 doesn't seem right. S_S pointing this out makes me dislike S_S's slot less.

Fwiw I understand rb's side of it now. It's mostly gut but he was trying to give an explanation people would understand, and not really succeeding.

[Luca Blight]

which town games did you see before?

Mini 2101 i think, it ended like two weeks ago, the one sky/tw modded

Incidentally i was scum there, but i'm not sure that's particularly relevant to the subject at hand

If anything i think he's being townier here than there

He only wasnt mislynched there cuz i faked an inno on him

I don’t think I was ever close to being lynched in that game, inno or not.

[Luca Blight]

Glancing over Kerset’s meta, I also agree it is like night and day to this game. I’m feeling more confident in my vote now.

[Kerset]

The fact that someone join this game later is NAI for me, i am only interested in reason behind this. I confirmed that we are only allowed to start this game, if everyone send PM to mod so i doubted that someone would reply to his 3rd PM and then omit PM about game start.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Catchup from pages 17-21

@nom - referring to 406. given that someone (it may have been you) said S_S plays pretty passively as scum wouldnt his lack of scumread also be part of his scum!game?

As of now, I dont like either of the Kerset/rb slots.

@Suji, could you explain the reads from 470?

Aaron's 477 feels like a way to try and keep the discussion on Kerset and rb and off of him. I dont know that scum would be so transparent about this, but it pinged me. Liking S_S even more when hes talking about the player list rather than theory and mechanics though.

@S_S - in 486, why me over either of the other leading wagons that that moment?

Skitter's read of the rb slot and interaction with nom over it feels better than the early game.

@Luca - why are you ruling out s v s on Kerset/rb at 503?

[Luca Blight]

@Kerset: what other reads do you have aside from rb?

@Billy: it would have been a very unusual first interaction between Kerset/rb to be s/s. Unusual things can happen in Mafia but I think both rb and Kerset being scum is highly unlikely.

[Something_Smart]

@S_S - in 486, why me over either of the other leading wagons that that moment?

Didn't want to encourage the fight between Kerset and rb.

[nomnomnom]

@nom - referring to 406. given that someone (it may have been you) said S_S plays pretty passively as scum wouldnt his lack of scumread also be part of his scum!game?

I don't know. But the only towngame I've played with him he was like "lol it's okay guys " and did not provide any concrete scumreads for a good while. I don't think I care about S_S right now.

[AaronFrost]

Aaron feels SO odd in this discussion right now. It feels like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. There's something that's hard to pinpoint about you talking about rb and Kerset, but like... I'm getting suspicious of you about how you made a 180 on your Kerset read and I have the intuition that you're essentially locking yourself out of your Kerset read, because rb must be scum. That's how it feels like to me.

pedit: Also what the hell are those Billy votes? I am genuinely puzzled.

Not really a 180 on the read, but I don't think rb and Kerset are ever a team here and I find rb to be scummier at the moment.

[AaronFrost]

hot take: luca is scum and kerset and I are both town

or more collaboratively: suppose i was wrong about kerset, and we were both town. how would the rest of you feel about Luca's angle on our slots?

So now you're backtracking? How did you come to this conclusion?

[AaronFrost]

id be willing to lynch SS just for that, but i think you're a better lynch (=

forgot to say: vote kerset with me then? =]

Yeah actually looking back I don't see how this is town motivated. How do we get from "Aaron is a good lynch right now" to "Aaron come vote Kerset with me?" It just feels disingenuous and like it's manipulating me into doing something that others might perceive as scummy.

VOTE: rb

why would others perceive you as scummy?

in fact, why so concerned about what others think of your alignment?

it's quite simple: i voted the wagon i believed most likely to flip scum, but then my kerset scumread outweighed this. as a result, i wanted to see if you'd vote my best scumread in the game

the real question is why you think it's weird that i would want more people to vote my strongest scumread

it's a thing i always am baffled by when people decide my play is 'scummy' because i like to have other people voting my best scumreads. your vote is the most important tool in the game, no?

So why aren't you have people vote for me right now?

Wanting people to vote your scumreads isn't weird, but the way you went about it felt like you were trying to tell me how to think and that's manipulative.

[AaronFrost]

rb does feel verbose but I need to think about that.

I think Kerset's end of the interaction was very odd for sure. I'll even go ahead and VOTE: Kerset. That iso is textbook pessimistic scum having a very low vote/fos ratio. I think the key to decoding rb is actually residing in Kerset's wall.

ok

i reread:

a) rb is verbose, sure, but that's not what i'm particularly taking issue with, it's that his posts are manipulative and seemed designed to 1. get aaron to doubt his townread of luca 2. buddy aaron

b) this is why i found rb to be scummy

c) i still don't particularly have thoguhts on kerset. i read their convo a few times and it just kinda ~is~

if you read my posts you'll see that i think luca is also a scumread of mine

So i questioned why aaron townreads him, because aaron said he has prior experience. that means i have two thoughts: how much experience, how relevant it is, and whether or not aaron realises that scum!luca would be aware of this and is likely to play in a way that would get a townread from aaron

these are the things i would expect town!aaron to consider, so when i ask aaron to outline these things, what im searching for is not to make aaron doubt his read: but for information that shows me that aaron himself is going through these processes.

questioning aaron's read is about me finding out aaron's alignment, not about me 'throwing shade' at luca

i have only one vote however, and it makes no real sense for me to simultaneously split my pressure across two slots. i can't realistically push for a kerset wagon as well as a luca wagon - but that doesn't mean i won't try to find out other people's alignments in the process

I mean yeah of course I've considered the fact that my early D1 reads could be wrong, in fact it happens pretty much every game I play. Most of my D1 reads are based on gut/previous experience.

[AaronFrost]

Noms you seem to have some experience with skitter. She's made some pretty weak points at this juncture. Is that normal; is it indicative of her alignment?

I'd say this is NAI for skitter.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I dont like the rb wagon right now. My read came around on that. Aaron isnt a bad vote at the moment, but I think Kerset is the best chance for scum at the moment. Their weird interaction upon rb's entrance. The vote on rb after rb was scumreading them. The poor reaction to pressure. Theres not anything really townie in the iso.

VOTE: Kerset

@S_S I'm confused why Skitt looks worse after a town Kerset flip. Care to explain? I dont generally do pre-flip associatives but I'd like to know where you're coming from.

[AaronFrost]

Don't know how I feel about the topic just being behind the Kerset and rb slot. Kerset has really bad arguments but the approach they bring to the game feels towny. I think we should still go for Aaron here. Rb is just gonna be...well rb

Bad post. Trying to distract from the Kerset/rb discussions.

Why didn't you say this about Sirfetch?

Because his pushes on other players who aren't rb/Kerset feel much more natural and town-motivated.

[AaronFrost]

who is the scummiest player in the game then?

Probably aaron or bilky

I havent read any of kerset's previous games

I feel like you've been shading me a bit but haven't actually pushed me or even voted for me.

[Something_Smart]

@S_S I'm confused why Skitt looks worse after a town Kerset flip. Care to explain? I dont generally do pre-flip associatives but I'd like to know where you're coming from.

The timing of 610 right after multiple people expressed suspicions of Kerset would be putting up a mostly ineffective argument that would look bad but probably not save them if both were scum; but it's a great way for scum to gain towncred if Kerset later flips town.

I might be misremembering but I have the impression in my head that skitter was originally defending Kerset because of bad reasoning used against them but at some point switched to a bona fide townread when the pressure ramped up. If it really did happen that way, it's a whiteknighting pattern.

[AaronFrost]

@Aaron - 364 what convinced you to vote Kerset other than rb asking you to?

Pretty much wanted to move off of nom for the time being and onto someone else + the reasons I laid out in 295.

[AaronFrost]

I linked to the wrong fucking post lmao

Meant to link to 356

[AaronFrost]

Aaron's 477 feels like a way to try and keep the discussion on Kerset and rb and off of him. I dont know that scum would be so transparent about this, but it pinged me. Liking S_S even more when hes talking about the player list rather than theory and mechanics though.

So you think town!Aaron would just allow himself to get wagoned while not voicing my opinions on players I find scummy?

[AaronFrost]

I'm liking nom's posts for town better. SS and Luca are pretty townie as well.

Not sure where all the scumreads on Billy came from. He hasn't really done much to swing me one way or the other.

[Kerset]

@Kerset: what other reads do you have aside from rb?

I bet that as soon as Rb wakes up he will repeatedly call each of my read OMG THATS SO SCUMMYYY but whatever

aaron - I dislike the way he approach people, he is not trying to understand them. His reactions to skitter were bad but in overall, i think that his slot is overratted. He receives more blame that he deserves. SL
billy - His reads are meh but he showed some proper views. Not so bad. null
flubber - He is very protective and i don't know why. I want to see how is he going to behave, when all of suspicion moves to other people. null
luca - He gives fair reasoning for each suspicion that he makes also he focused on building his own opinions rather then sheeping them. I can totally see a town player following such progression. TR
nom - I guess that she is emotional player? I don't have the same data as she does about her relations so its really hard for me to check her thoughts. null
PMmyst - lack of posts
Sir - He appears to be have independent mind, which is quite unique perk in this game and town indicative for me. There are some flaws in his logic but i would bet that he is misguided rather then scummy. TR
skitter - He makes a lot of posts and not all of them are useful, however i think that he has good intentions. He is consequent and not opportunistic(even when you call him town). I think that I will have better read on him during D2 (either here or in dead chat). TL
s_s - He is fine. I don't have any strong feeling towards this person but others seems to vouch for him. TL
suji - I dislike his general progression. He seems to hide his real thoughts, never made use of RT. #140 was odd. SL
wooper - I don't take him serious. I just hope that vigilante won't missshot because of his recklessness.
Xayah - lack of posts

[Something_Smart]

wooper - I don't take him serious. I just hope that vigilante won't missshot because of his recklessness.

...huh?