Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[Bogre]

Well, whatever. I had a plan, it failed, and you all will lynch a townie over it. Hope when I flip you all decide to take a better look at K7. Or lose. That might be entertaining, but that's just me being vindictive after getting rather pissed off at a rather annoying series of life events. Have fun lynching townies guys.

I dislike this statement.

THIS SPACE INTENTIONALLY LEFT BLANK

forbiddanlight - 6 (killa seven, armlx, SpyreX, Manito, Firestarter, Corinthian)
killa seven - 2 (CF Riot, forbiddanlight)
LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)
Gimbo - 1 (dcorbe)
Joubert - 1 (ShadowGirl)

Not Voting - Lquiz, Voodo, LaptopGun, Joubert, Gimbo

16 alive, 9 to lynch.

-Mod

[forbiddanlight]

You should dislike it. You are helping the scum reach their goal of killing all the townies with a mislynch D1.0. So, dislike it all you like. I'm townie, I know it, and no one believes me. I've posted my attempt at defence, no one liked that. You all are dead set on me being scum. Please facepalm when I flip townie. And when killa flips scum, I wanna see that sig .

[SpyreX]

Don't you worry none. If you're not maf and k7 is, you'll see it.

I'm not thinkin thats gonna happen though.

[armlx]

Meh, vote isn't going anywhere. A lot of forbid's defense through now has been "You are wrong b/c I am town", which is an invalid argument for obv reasons.

[somestrangeflea]

Searching for replacements for Lquiz and Voodo.

EDIT: FaerieLord replaces Lquiz.

[FaerieLord]

Replaced. Read 79, then I'll read this.

[FaerieLord]

You know, I'm not even sure why I'm doing this read. I'll probably just go with Gimbo, but whatever (Joking gimbo. Also, you need to be prodded :D)

36: Laptopgun (-) Aha...
52: Dcorbe (+) A good post
53: Firestart (/) Please...pulling theories after one complete game...is bad!
54: Killa (-) I find that scummy
57: Bogre (-) Gut
70: Riot (-) Random votes can catch scum. I don't random vote
87: Gimbo (/) Ahahahahaha. Advice about not posting a lot...by GIMBO! XD
104: Forbiddan (/) 1)Speak English 2)Use Paragraphs
107: Spyre (-) Don't exxagerate
108: Forbiddan (-) No, just no.
109: Gimbo (/) Nitpick. A town would be fine dying if it meant he'd catch scum, but I'm nitpicking here
112: Gimbo (/) No. You have to be civil, believe it or not
120: Killa (-) What Armlx said below you
124: SpyreX (-) Go ahead, barn Armlx!
132: Firestarter (/) Get this straight. I'm FL now! K? :p
134: Forbiddan (-) That's pretty fucked up
142: Manito (/) Bad LAL context
174: Forbiddan (-) Not to sound like the asshole, but people on the internet don't care about RL. We only see that as AfE
180: Spyre (+) Finally, a good post...except you still played it safe and stayed on Forbidden
181: Manito (-) YOu ignored Spyre didn't you?
184: Gimbo (+) Gut
187: Manito (-) Uggh...
201: Forbiddan (-) AfE again


SpyreX and Manito. Stop agreeing and start posting
Dcorbe. Start posting
Gimbo. Don't give advice
Forbiddan. Stop thinking too much

@ The Forbiddan Case: Have any of you guys played against disciple of something. He played so bad, people thought he was a jester. He also had a master plan, but people called bullshit and lynched him. I'm not saying forbiddan light is town here, but take it into consideration that she might just be a very bad player, with all due respect to her. Ehh, thinking about it, I think lynching her is a good idea. Trying to change directions will not be a good move at this point since she'll just keep playing awfully.

Forbiddan, I have the power of the vote here, and you're not looking pretty. So do this for me. Post who you think is scummy and give reasons why. For the record, saying "He attacked me" will not cut it. It will only make me use bold tags. Thank you

As for the comments about posts on people, they are just placeholders for now. I'll explain everything better, once Forbiddan light is dealt with. Either via lynch or by become a good player.

[armlx]

Lynching someone you think is town but just a bad player is not the best move FL.

And stop doing that promoting a lynch but not voting people thing. It just makes you look scummy every time.

[forbiddanlight]

Ok, first, I can't fine AfE in the wiki, so can you tell me what that means? And second, alright, I'll try to give you my reads. I've done it a couple times but you were right, those were in a very OMGUS context.


killa seven - "Don't vote yourself and hunt scum" then "vote:forbiddanlight". Trying to "Call my bluff". Yet for some reason, you believe HE had a plan after he got called out on bad play, but you think I'M just reaching. Even if he's attacking me, that's scummy behavior. More of the same throughout this whole issue. He is where my vote is, of course.

Firestarter - Doesn't see anything warranting an FoS on either me OR Killa!? We both were reasonably scummy at that point. Further justification by "not wanting to throw FoS's around". An FoS is not a vote. It runs very little danger while getting your thoughts out there. I don't like this.THEN he misinterprets EVERYTHING I say to make the wagon on me look even more desirable? Hell, I'm half tempted to switch my vote here now. I realize it seems OMGUS, but seriously, take a look at how he's attacking me. So, he's second most scummy to me.

CF Riot- Votes K7, but says I'm making myself scummier and scummier by each post. So switch vote to me, or explain why K7 is still scummier, beyond what you've already pointed out. Third Scummiest, actually, but it's slightly weak, but stronger than the other reads below this


dcorbe - ignores the early stages of my self vote plan, and doesn't weigh in on the current debate now. But, hasn't posted anything around here. It's mostly the fact that he says something completely unrelated to the self vote thing, as if he's purposely trying to avoid being drawn in. Again, weak, but my fourth most scummiest read


Manito - Too agreeable with what everyone else says. I don't like that. Buuut...I really don't have anything else on him. I'll put him at fifth scummiest.

LaptopGun - No weigh in on the killa vs. forbiddan thing. He did the whole "something odd" with the random votes, but is no where to be found after that. This is my WEAKEST scum read but I still feel he could be scum. Fifth most scummiest read.


ShadowGirl -Also not weighing in, but I think she said she had IRL troubles. I want to hear what she has to say soon. Not even scummy, just I wanna hear what she has to say.

I think that covers everyone who caught my attention. Bogre just seems to be the type that will hardline to force a defense so he can examine it. Corinthian makes me feel slightly uneasy, but it feels like he's trying for find inconsistancies, much like a police officer would. Gimbo seems to be a bit too forgiving, but hey, I'll take what I can get. SpyreX, I rather liked his analysis post, as well as Joubert's. Speaking of which, I want a follow up on Joubert's inquisition. In fact, I like analysis posts in general because it gets a lot of thoughts out there and can shed light on inconsistancies. And, I have nothing so far on you, FL, except that you genuinely want to keep an open mind and let me defend myself. I of course see this as a plus. So, that's what you wanted, I hope it helps when people realize I'm telling the truth, whether by my lynch or an improvement in my play.

.

[LaptopGun]

Sorry for the absense.

Here's the 1st 2 posts of my attempt to justify it
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=7165
2 from page 11

@ Justin, I need a bit of clarification from you. I found your analysis of kabenon reasonable and certainly needs addressing. However I find it's at odds with what you told him previously in post 162 (fyi page 7). You talk about his suspicions of Shteven and specifically talk about the logic of the hypotetical freudian slip. I do not mean to suggest that this is bad analysis. What I want to know is, why does this not appear on your subsequent post explaining a whole host of new problems with kabenon? It seems you relegated it to a throwaway line about k's attacks on shteven. I would think that that only helps your case even more that kabeon never responded to you directly. He attempted to clarify it to others (such as Fonz, Vokan, and Farside when they questioned him) but you have not followed that line of questioning your self. Are you saying that as you put it "Quick thoughts" have been surpassed?

Relevent posts quoted below:

Quick thoughts:

Kabenon,

I understand what you’re going for with Shteven, but the problem here is two-fold. First, to have real meaning the kind of slip you’re suggesting here would either have to be part of a pattern of behavior or be far more blatant in thinking of a situation from a scum perspective. Second, in and of itself, Shteven’s statement doesn’t approach the issue from the perspective you’re suggesting it does. I mean, from any reasonable examination of the situation it would seem most likely that Jesse Gunn would have been doctor protected last night.

Given that Shteven, even if he were scum, could not know that Jesse Gunn was protected last night if as scum he killed another target, and given that it would seem a logical assumption for town or scum that Jesse Gunn would be protected for anyone playing regardless of alignment, why would you consider what Shteven said to be particularly indicative of a scummy slip?

I was a bit curious about Vollkan’s vote on Kabenon. Having reread the thread to check on Vollkan I find myself now a bit more curious about Kabenon.

Kabenon,

The fact that you have made the following two posts so early in our proceedings is of interest to me:

A word of warning Phate, vollkan always gives off town vibes...

And then later, giving an example:

I agree that a particular scumtell, or even town tell, cannot be placed on everyone. Take vollkan for instance. His large posts, contentful, appear pro-town. But he also does them when he is scum. I want to wait for a recent vote count before I vote, mostly because I don't have time to check myself. (I'm lazy and busy, sue me!)

All right, so you have warned us twice that Vollkan may be scum however town he may seem. Do you have any reasons for suspecting Vollkan beyond his usually seeming town that would warrant two warnings about him in the first nine pages?

So I guess I have two questions about this.


Who are you waiting on a vote count to vote on? You’ve already voted Shteven, making a rather persistent case against him. Is it Vollkan, which might be suggested by the linkage in the above post, or someone else?

Does your above statement about waiting to vote mean that you no longer believe the vote you already have on Shteven is appropriate?

This post bothers me some:

Just expressing my opinion, Shteven. That way, when people ask what it was, I can go back and point to a specific spot and say, Look there it is! Instead of saying "Well, judging from how I worded this post, I felt XXX." Much more concrete, more helpful to the town.

First, because the post you made which you are referring to here is this:

I think we should keep the idea that Jesse might be scum in the back of our minds, just as a last thought kind of thing. We can scum hunt without worrying about it too much. If we can't figure it out, we can always go back and examine him thoroughly later.

If you could please explain both how saying that Jesse might be scum or he might not but we can find out later is “concrete”, and how it is “helpful to town”. I understand how it might later be useful to you.

Finally there is this, in response to Farside22 asking you about your suspicions of Wesaq:

Why do you want to know?

While it is perfectly appropriate to ask the question you are asking in return, it would also have been appropriate to answer Farside22’s question. In this case it actually would provide something “Much more concrete, more helpful to the town”.

Why did you choose not to answer Farside22’s question?

Anyway, thank you for any answers provided. For now:

Vote: Kabenon007

My second one:

Shteven I didn't want to bring it up until Justin returned and answered my question, but it's what I've been noticing. Justin hasn't acted like himaself since he "pressured" our resident cop to reveal a scum (and by result himself as cop). I don't know what's up but I miss his posts. He really does a great job with things... but that's the problem. I imagine h'd be a wicked good mafia goon.

[LaptopGun]

Direct Link for page 11

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=250

Again more to come. Sorry this has taken awhile, I picked a good time to go on vacation to visit friends

[forbiddanlight]

And what does that have to do with your absence? Am I missing something here?

[LaptopGun]

Direct link for page 12

http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... &start=275
Justin’s response:

Farside,

About this:

Justin, I need a bit of clarification from you. I found your analysis of kabenon reasonable and certainly needs addressing. However I find it's at odds with what you told him previously in post 162 (fyi page 7). You talk about his suspicions of Shteven and specifically talk about the logic of the hypotetical freudian slip. I do not mean to suggest that this is bad analysis. What I want to know is, why does this not appear on your subsequent post explaining a whole host of new problems with kabenon? It seems you relegated it to a throwaway line about k's attacks on shteven. I would think that that only helps your case even more that kabeon never responded to you directly. He attempted to clarify it to others (such as Fonz, Vokan, and Farside when they questioned him) but you have not followed that line of questioning your self. Are you saying that as you put it "Quick thoughts" have been surpassed?

Just a bit curious about this:

However I find it's at odds with what you told him previously in post 162 (fyi page 7).

To be at odds would generally be construed to mean “contradicts”. If this is what you mean can you point out how anything in my later post contradicts what was in the previous one? If you do I would be pleased to answer.

About this:

What I want to know is, why does this not appear on your subsequent post explaining a whole host of new problems with kabenon?

I think you answer this yourself just after:

He attempted to clarify it to others (such as Fonz, Vokan, and Farside when they questioned him)

Most especially, in this case, his exchange with Vollkan. I dislike asking the precise same questions another player is already asking, for a number of reasons. Although it seems all right to me, sometimes, to return to the same questions at a later time to see if someone’s answers have “evolved”, pursuing this line heavily at the same time it was being pursued by another seems more designed to crack someone regardless of alignment than to find scum.

This troubles me just a bit:

I would think that that only helps your case even more that kabeon never responded to you directly.

I don’t think my case wants that kind of help. Kabenon was answering questions about his accusation against Shteven. To pursue him for not addressing his answers to me in particular would be persecution, not investigation. If you would, could you explain to me what value this would have other than to try to force a lynch regardless of Kabenon’s alignment?

Finally:

Are you saying that as you put it "Quick thoughts" have been surpassed?

Well, my quick thoughts were expressed. But certainly I am more suspicious of Kabenon007 for the behavior I pointed out in my later post than I am for the poor accusation of Shteven.

My response:

Hey Justin. I thank you for getting back to me and addressing my concerns. I hope I can answer what you asked. Moreover, I'm gonna have to put my cards on the table I don't like the polarization of this thread. It seems the

1. Contradicts seems not to be the best word choice. It is not an out and out 180; I see it as an inconsistancy in your questioning. What I was trying to get across was that it would have made more sense if you continued with the issues you brought up. You are a logical person and enjoy using it, so there seemed to be a classic oppertunity for you.

2. You seem to be better than most posters at phrasing things. I don't mean to take anything away from my fellow posters, but there I said it. You tend to be excellent at it. You commenting other's posts is pretty good, even if it's just echoing it.

3. I think some of the other posters have been persecuting him. You don't seem to be, but then agin you are letting others speak.

4.The evolution thing can reveal major differences. I wouldn't rely on it unless it seemed key evidence, but I by no means dismiss it out of hands.

5. Ok there's a 1000 pound elephant in the room and I can't avoid it anymore. I do not like letting a small cadre of other posters explain what you said or want to continue to say. There is a really large anti-kabeon sentiment right now. You may not be the spearhead, but it really gained momentum when you first questioned him. I have to decide if the mafia are trying to wagon him. However I have to wonder if they benefited from your always piecing analysis or if you deliberately set this up. Yes I am trying to add things up. Both have some evidence backing them up.

And then there is the third possibility, that I'm completely wrong. No mafia are in on it and I'm slowing up the lynching of scum. I don't know how this would play out. Here's a freebie- your reactions to my questioning look genuinely townie. I never said Kabeon007 seemed innocent to me. He's a suspect. I need to question him and I need to get to it. I talk too much, I post too much. But I want to be heard. I don't go quietly into the night.

[LaptopGun]

No. I just didn't bother getting around to this. I got a couple more things I promised to share and then I'll be caught up on that. Then I'll add my two cents on the hilarious developments.

Direct link page 42
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... start=1025

I am not surprised dcorbe was the right lynch

I like Volkan's lie/play/gambit because I really wanted the SK found out. Besides the obvious clearing of my name, I would have liked the idea of going after the mafia assuming the SK would cooperate.

My list of Probable townies: Volkan, armix, Rigel (these should be obvious)
Neutral: iamausername
Currently neutral but my gut feelings require me to qualify my selection: Shteven
Decent suspects: Fonz, dahill1

iamausername: Seems genuine, but cavalier attitude. Sticks to the facts. I know nothing else unfotunately, the vote record doesn't tell me a whole lot either. The bigest pro town indicator I see is that when he says something, it is almost always important to the situation. In other words, I don't see deception. There's a pro town vibes here, with a few question marks.

Shteven has largely been largely pro town since day 2. However, I can't get over how he readily agreed with my boogey man claims on Justin. I also cant get over that Justin then turned up dead. This is utterly a gut feeling here, and it contradicts how I view the rest of his actions. He was right on my argument on the similarities on the wagon, which is to say there were not really anything like I thought.

Fonz: He doesn't match up to my previous experiences with him. His play is all over the place, as I said before. I'm getting mixed indicators from both his town and mafia play, which makes me think he's the SK

dahil: What haven't I said already? Latest actions on the surface could be seen as pro town- pointing out that (correctly) that dcorbe was a lying mafia. On the other hand, he could have just been bussing a scum partner who he felt was too suspcious to try to save.

ABWOP

When I say "He was right on my argument on the similarities on the wagon," I was talking about the Kab wagon to the dcorbe one. In my last post I saw somethings that looked familiar in and he critqued it that they probably werent.

[forbiddanlight]

Alright. I'm really interested in seeing what you have to say. There's a lot of odd around for you to take flights of fancy with .

[LaptopGun]

I can provide more if anyone wants/needs more, these were just the ones that I remembered or struck me as appropriate while searching. Several posters and myself referred to my JustinPlayfair fiasco as my "boogey man" argument.

Alright on to more current matters. forbiddanlight looks more and more scummy the more and more she talks. I am not sure I find her self vote action extremely scummy. The thing that really sinks her in my eyes is her reactions. Some of them seem to be pulling motives or lines of thinking out of thin air. I haven't made up my mind, but something is just oddball with her.

[LaptopGun]

Alright. I'm really interested in seeing what you have to say. There's a lot of odd around for you to take flights of fancy with .

I appreciate the sentiment. It seems like there are sometimes I really should just keep my mouth shut with some of my thoughts.

[armlx]

Thats definitely good enough LTG. You are justified from page 2.

[LaptopGun]

Yep. Take it or leave it. In hindsight my thoughts were not the most intelligent things to say, but they for a bit were invoking questioning. If all we do is chat about how long it's been since the last post or "All hail Gimbo our fearless leader," I have a hard time believing we are going to find many of the mafia.

This comment that early in the game, guuah, looks strange. Like the guy who sighs at the mountain of work in front of him...

People for better or for worse are making a big deal about random voting, including myself. However in my opinion, there is no coloration between what they say and if they are acting pro town or pro mafia.

Did you say that to be sure you will blend in the mix?

I think the people voting for me are town as they are pointing out flaws in my reasoning. This doesn't seem like the mafia begging for a mislynch.

Are you that insecure about your position or role?

SpyreX is coming off as the voice of reason. Seems to have exactly right thing to say about all the crazy.

I'd say he looks crazy more than anyone else doing that, because everyone's MEANT to be a little weird in the preliminary stages. Shortly after, SpyreX answers all the points, although they weren't meant to be answered. Strange... Possible connection between those two?

1. It was a bit of work. I had a backlog because of the vacation. Sorry. Still, as an English major, I like the simile .

2. I was speaking the truth. If I was trying to blend in, I'm doing a poor job of it.

3. Very much my position at the time. I've come to live with the sometimes bizarre or paranoid behavior I've done as a townie.

4. SpyreX seemed noteworthy at the time as the most logical person a the time. Still seems that way. On the whole, there has been a lot better discussion such as those on a "person of interest" like forbiddanlight. I guess it's just the usual progression that people are just acting less weird with more substanial stuff to talk about.

[LaptopGun]

Thats definitely good enough LTG. You are justified from page 2.

Thanks. Good to hear.

[FaerieLord]

Lynching someone you think is town but just a bad player is not the best move FL.

And stop doing that promoting a lynch but not voting people thing. It just makes you look scummy every time.

1) I didn't say I think she's town.

2) Get used to it. By now you should know that I rarely vote. But since this is nightless, it looks like I will have to.

I'm just saying that I don't want to open up cases about other people until forbiddan light is dealt with. If you (town in general) think the best way to deal with her is a lynch, I'll happily oblige. But if you think there is a better route, I'll post my cases

Ok, first, I can't fine AfE in the wiki, so can you tell me what that means? And second, alright, I'll try to give you my reads. I've done it a couple times but you were right, those were in a very OMGUS context.

It is appeal for emotion.

We both were reasonably scummy at that point.

So you're admitting that you are scummy? How is a plan good if it will make you look scummy?

[forbiddanlight]

I've addressed that, FL. I didn't WANT to look scummy. I just fucked up and did look scummy in the process, hence abandoning the plan since I was only going to get townies on me after that. Killa however not only was drawn in, but the WAY he voted seemed scummy. Upon analyzing it now, we both did look scummy, so my plan was even more of an epic failure. And now, here we are .

[FaerieLord]

I'm having trouble what to obey right now...

Common Sense or Gut.

[SpyreX]

I'm just saying that I don't want to open up cases about other people until forbiddan light is dealt with. If you (town in general) think the best way to deal with her is a lynch, I'll happily oblige. But if you think there is a better route, I'll post my cases

Ok... what?

If you've got cases, share them.
Have opinions. Town needs voices, not lemmings.
If you dont think the lynch on Forbid is solid, stand up and go for it.

This post reeks so much of noncommittal I dont even know where to begin.

[armlx]

2) Get used to it. By now you should know that I rarely vote. But since this is nightless, it looks like I will have to.

FL, this only benefits you in games you are scum, and even then you will still get default lynched or vigged for it a good amount regardless of alignment. If you stop doing it, it will be better for you in the long run.