Open 81 - The New C9 - Game Over

[armlx]

Who said the question didn't have a neither option?

Statistical studies have shown that not stating a neither option is avaliable when it is a valid response leads to bias in the result.

And which stall are you talking about here, the stall on roflcopter's initial question, or the stall on my request for elaboration on his response to the former? Or both? (Or neither? Wink )

The one you voted him for.

Lowell, vibes != proof or logic, therefore vibes = nothing unless you can back them with logic. As such, any vibe only based votes or alignment thoughts on people from you will be responded to with a "Please show your work" from me. Your incentive to do so will be my not bringing up memories of annoying math teachers once you start using logic.

[StrangerCoug]

Vamparific has more against him than you realize. You don't just throw a vote on a bandwagon with "I agree with what everyone else has said". Especially when you get into higher vote counts. It was the 4th vote, so not really bad, but it's still very fishy to walk in, vote with such a flimsy reason, and walk out. Then he comes back with his only defense being "I always screw myself over"? Yeah, that's not scummy at ALL.

OK, I buy that.

The "very little" you speak of is ridiculous. I had intuition on you for my FoS. I can't vote on intuition. Well, I CAN, but it's not good play. I do however feel if a wagon did form on you, someone would point out what my intuition was going off on, so I'd feel better about voting you;.

So you are playing the waiting game as to what to think of me, is that correct?

Vamparific however, was just a straight reading the evidence. It's scummy, no two ways about it. So, I really think that you aren't examining the situation well, StrangerCoug.

Maybe not, because nobody in this game is God. Any specific examples of my faulty examination that you wish to bring up?

-Edited to fix tags. Mod.

[StrangerCoug]

Mod: Please fix my quote tags.

I feel like an idiot typing "vote" instead of "quote", especially given my vote's already on who I'm talking to.

[forbiddanlight]

Mostly what I already brought up. And fix your quotes in another post, PLEASE. You seem to think my reasons for voting you and vamp are the same. They aren't, and I have much more substantiation with Vamp (which still isn't much, but it's D1). Your case is mostly intuition, meaning I'd basically rather wait, as you say, to see what others thing to see what my intuition is going off on, since I can't seem to find much else than what I actually put down for my reasons for FoSing you. I think that covers it.

[Korts]

vote Vamparific

The case against forbiddanlight looks good too.

Guys, no. Reasons, reasons, reasons. Don't be a hypocrite. You're wagoning Vamp for wagoning forbiddan for wanting to wagon StrangerCoug.

Make a case.

unvote, vote: Sun Tzu

I thought it was obvious.

"lol i keep screwing myself over" reads like a confession to me, as in "oops, I keep getting caught as scum."

I can buy that explanation, for now.

Mostly what I already brought up. And fix your quotes in another post, PLEASE. You seem to think my reasons for voting you and vamp are the same. They aren't, and I have much more substantiation with Vamp (which still isn't much, but it's D1). Your case is mostly intuition, meaning I'd basically rather wait, as you say, to see what others thing to see what my intuition is going off on, since I can't seem to find much else than what I actually put down for my reasons for FoSing you. I think that covers it.

Or you could've gone and researched SC (StrangerCoug FYI) to see if your intuition was right. Playing mafia takes a little effort sometimes, but you could actually take ten minutes to search for something specifically scummy instead of citing intuition. And

this

is why my vote goes back to you.

unvote, vote: forbiddanlight

By the way, Lowell, adding reason to your argument always helps. That advice doesn't go to Vamp and Sun Tzu only.

[forbiddanlight]

Meh, I don't know if I CAN make a case. I know what you say about intuition, but mine is rather frustrating as it's something I usually can't consciously pick out quickly. I'll relook it over (I did it once), but I don't think I'll get anywhere with that case. The case on Vamp, however, is not looking good in my eyes. He hasn't even TRIED to defend himself.

[Korts]

Meh, I don't know if I CAN make a case. I know what you say about intuition, but mine is rather frustrating as it's something I usually can't consciously pick out quickly. I'll relook it over (I did it once), but I don't think I'll get anywhere with that case. The case on Vamp, however, is not looking good in my eyes. He hasn't even TRIED to defend himself.

I can agree with the last part, at least. Vamp needs to answer the case against him, and I'd be interested to hear who his top suspects are.

unvote, vote: Vamp

Sigh. Looks like my vote's on world tour, it just doesn't want to settle down anywhere. There's always someplace better for it...

[forbiddanlight]

I've relooked, and I think I know what happened. I got Coug's stance slightly confused and thought I saw a contradiction. I still FoS based on the idea that he was REALLY reluctant to get off pseudo confirmed townie roflcopter, buuut, I don't think I'd vote him, especially with vamp popping in and out with one sentence posts.

[JordanA24]

So sorry for my 9-page absense, forgot to put this on my Watch List, anyway (writing this as I read):

roflcopter was just plain awful on Page 1, saying he appreciated the Doc being dead (Korts is also guilty of this btw)? Narrowing down the lynch options to 2 players on Page 1 (or implying this)? And the post where he accuses armlx of Rolefishing on Page 2 is even worse really, when you say someone is definatly town on Page 1, you should expect someone to think you may be cop claiming Page 1 (he also mentioned how stupid and unlikely he thought this was). Voting him for it? Argh!

@iamausername, you may think its a stupid trap, but it worked. when someone says "player x is obvtown" at the start of day one, and someone else says "why?" the only answer they're looking for or thinking is "because i'm a town power role duh."

He didn't really ask why though, he merely pointed out the possibility of a cop claim.

I agree when SC says that rofl may be scum who pointed out a townie to get on that townie's good side (although if he did, he did a horrible job of not making it look scummy)

i find armlx scummier for trying to take control of the game

vote:armlx

Showing initiative=/=Trying to take control.

This post=Bad Posting

What logic is that you are implying?

The short explanation:

1) On N0, if a game is balanced, killing off a random person should be even benefit on both sides. The vig doesn't kill themselves, so the pool is slanted towards the town's favor as there are (balanced number - 1 ) townies vs (balanced number) scum.

2) Vigilante kills after N0 are generally the same as more lynches. Which is good.

This is poor logic because there is 5 scum compared to 15 town. So even if you eliminate 1 town (the vig himself), it's still only a 5 in 19 chance of hitting scum, with a decent chance of hitting a town power role.

Good, good, more.

@Iron Man- yes, of course it's a rolefish. And no, I don't know if there are masons. If there aren't any, asking them to reveal doesn't risk much, does it?

The logic is basically: with 2 masons out in the open, it helps town winnow the field of potential lynch candidates, and forces scum to make an awkward and annoying choice. Either they can waste NKs on masons (who have no pro-town abilities other than confirming each others' town-ness), or they can try to kill someone else, hoping that (a) they hit a power role, and (b) they can hide the next day despite there being fewer and fewer viable lynch options.

This seems counterintuitive, but in every game I've been in the town has been better served the earlier the masons reveal.

How many of the games that the masons claimed early on it contained an SK? To me, the claimed Masons will just become perfect SK-bait.

username looked slightly scummier to me thanks to his reaction to Lowell's suggestion, which was just dismissing it with no explainaion as to why. I'm guessing he did this because it seemed to go against logic, but some ideas that turn out to be great do seem stupid at first, so just dismissing it because it seems poor is a bad idea and possibly scummy as well.

ok armlx, your question is probably worded better than mine, but you clearly get the idea of what i was trying to do. you're still scum though.

i actually find myself agreeing with lowell's argument for a mason claim. outed masons either draw nightkills away from power roles that actually have night actions (such as the vig we know we have) or remain as a confirmed-town thorn in the scum's side.

yes lowell asking for the masons to claim is obviously rolefishing, but armlx's rolefishing is worse because no matter what he says about looking for what meta or tell i had that made iron man pro town, what he was really trying to figure out was if i'm a cop.

so i'm just gonna go ahead and do this, sorry iron cause i can see you are against it, but i really think lowell is right.

i am a mason with iron man.

armlx, korts, blakadder and to a lesser extent strangercoug are all looking extremely scummy right now. i think armlx is clearly the play today.

just to clarify, my vote for strife was complete and utter bullshit, whereas my vote for armlx was not, and the reason i paired them and asked who was scummier was to see who was gonna try and keep the attention off of armlx by saying strife when strife really hasn't done anything wrong. korts went one step further by vehemently denying the whole attempt to draw out information. obviously nobody is going along with my request at this point, so i'm just gonna point out now that korts/armlx working so hard to shoot it down is another thing that makes me all but positive that armlx is scum and reasonably sure korts is one of his partners.

OK, fair enough, I retract my earlier statements about your scummiess, presuming no-one counterclaims.

But, next time you do something like this

DO NOT REVEAL WHO YOUR PARTNER IS, ESPECIALLY WITHOUT THEIR CONSENT!!!

If your partner wants to claim, he can do so himself, but I'd have much prefered it if only 1 Mason had claimed in this situation (and one should never have outed both), since later on, it's a potential pitfall for scum who are looking for a fakeclaim to fall into.

Although, to be fair to you, you are right in saying you could have taken a fair guess at who your partner is if you just claimed Mason anyway, which is why you shouldn't say in your opening posts something like "Ironman is definate town", since it makes your Mason Partner obvious should you claim Mason, and it draws early attention to yourself as well.

I did not see him confirm before I started typing. Sorry.

I don't intend to unvote at this time, because town or not, you have made a serious,

SERIOUS

blunder that is making it hard to believe your claim. For all I know, Night 0 you could have talked with Iron Man and agreed to fakeclaim mason when it came to that point.

If you must roleclaim a power role during Day 1, wait until lynch -1 to do it.

What'd be the point in fakeclaiming Mason and outing a Mafia partner under not much pressure on Page 3? You have a terrible reason for not unvoting SC.

I will unvote you once I have a good reason to do so. Right now I do not.

Claimed masons is a good reason.

*grumble, grumble*

Fine.

Unvote: roflcopter

, but I still believe your actions warrant an

FoS: roflcopter

.

The above is probably the scummiest action in the game so far. SC, was it not obvious before that rofl was a claimed Mason? So why did you only unvote when armlx pointed this out?

I want to propose a different theory and get feedback from you guys except roflcopter, Iron Man, Armix, and Lowell (for now).

We know that there are definitely 4 scums in this game. Do you think it is possible that the scum got together N0 and devised a fake Mason claim? Iron Man doesn't seem too upset that rofl outed him. Lowell asks for the claim and with little pushing rofl claims and outs Iron Man. I think it's too convenient to not be scummy.

HOS: roflcopter and Iron Man
FOS: Armix and Lowell

So you think that the scum decided to have 2 members claim Mason, practically killing themselves in the long run, and have the two other scum link themselves to the claimed Masons quite strongly?

I'm not ready to vote you yet, but should a wagon appear on you, I will sure as hell join it.

Congrats, you've just displaced SC for the title of scummiest post in the game.

vote:forbidden light

i agree with the others points

Obv. Bandwagoning, you're now tying with FL for the above award.

Well, in case you all DO want to kill me shortly, I might as well point out I'm a vanilla townie. No claim here, continue voting at will. I'm actually quite astounded that that one statement got a wagon on me. To be honest, I was justifying intuition. I don't feel that StrangerCoug is town, but I'm maddeningly incapable of backing that up with much more, hence why I only FoS'd. I didn't want to start the bandwagon because I didn't have any "real" evidence. If a wagon started, my intuition would be more justified, and I also might actually find the reason that I'm suspicious of him, other than what I said. I also think at this point there is probably at least one scum on my wagon (since they should pretty clearly know I'm not scum). Given that, I will

vote Vamparific

since from what I can tell, he just waltzed in and jumped on the running wagon. Pretty easy way to hide as everyone was accusing me of attempting to do. I also am supsicious of StrangerCoug, but since that's not likely to go anywhere, let's hit the other one who looks mildly scummy here.

Also, I have 5 votes on my wagon. Thanks .

Why did you claim at -4?? Claiming should NOT be done until you're at about -2. And just out the blue with no-one asking for a claim? What's that about?

I'm not sure whether to believe it or not, because you're new, it's possible you didn't know that's it's fairly vital you abstain from claiming for as long as possible, but on the other hand, your newness and the sudden bandwagon on you, if you're scum, could have caused you to panic and fakeclaim the most convenient role you could, Vanilla (since it's virtually uncounterclaimable).
Leaning towards the former for now tbh, since you're new I'm cutting you more slack than I normally would. Plus, I feel there will be better targets for my vote at the the end of this post (some are already in my head).

forbiddenlight, I'm utterly confused as to how claiming Vanilla Townie isn't really claiming, have you gotten Vanilla Townie and being generally protown mixed up?

I cede your points. I forgot the SK was considered scum. And the fact that it could be considered anti-town if I'm shrinking the pool of potential power roles. Sorry.

Sorry, but where did the SK come into this topic?

I also get the whole deal with Vamp. Seems really opprotunistic given his poting history.

FoS Vamp

.

More later.

lol i keep screwing myself over

This is a very poor (non-)excuse.

Back to the game. I'm getting very strong town-vibes from korts and forbiddan, though for different reasons. I'd like to hear more about the case against armlx, if there is one, and wonder why the case against strangercoug fell apart so quickly. I'm not ready to abandon hope...

What reasons do you have for finding forbidden protown?

Review of my Top Suspects

Stranger:Doesn't seem to bring much new to the game, re-iterates other players points quite a bit, seems fairly willing to try to hide in the shadows somewhat. How quickly his wagon dissapated also bugs me, that disintegration may have been caused by scum. And then of course, there was the time he seemed to just bend to armlx's will and conform with the general opinion of the town, which is scummy and sort of fits in with the rest of his behaviour.

forbiddenlight: Following bandwagons, claiming needlessly, confusing posts, I'm not a fan of this guy at all.

vamparific: The most obviously scummy player. The "I keep screwing myself over" post was the most fail in the game so far, and some of her other posts don't come very far behind.

A bit confused at the moment on who to vote for, vamp is very obv scummy, but this gives me the feeling he may just be town who's playing very poorly. Would scum make themselves this obvious unless they really shouldn't be playing Mafia? This is just a whole load of WIFOM to me atm.

Tomorrow, when I'm less tired, I shall look further in-depth, I admit this was a bit of a skim-read to get to grips with the game (and it's late and I'm tired). If I had to vote now, I'd probably vote StrangerCoug, but be highly tempted by Vamp and maybe forbidden. I'll decide probably tomorrow.

[Sun Tzu]

Long post but pretty good. The only thing I disagree with is your dispute of the value of a vigilante. It's true that he can hit power roles, but he doesn't have to kill randomly. If you look at this game there are plenty of good suspects to kill. Like armlx said, vig hits are like extra lynches.

[forbiddanlight]

Why did you claim at -4?? Claiming should NOT be done until you're at about -2. And just out the blue with no-one asking for a claim? What's that about?

Arguable. Cougar was holding his vote pending a claim

Sorry, but where did the SK come into this topic?

Argument about whether the scum know who's town or not. I was under the impression the SK didn't count as scum so much as being in it for his own sake. I kinda screwed up my thinking here. It happens.

forbiddenlight, I'm utterly confused as to how claiming Vanilla Townie isn't really claiming, have you gotten Vanilla Townie and being generally protown mixed up?

In most of the games I have played on other forums, claiming townie is kinda just something implied. I forget about the SK and mafia being two seperate scum factions. I personally didn't see it as claiming because when I think claim, I think claiming a power role. So sue me, it's getting used to how things are done around here. I doubt I'm gonna be an NK target for it with so much suspicion surrounding me, and there was suspicion surrounding me even if I hadn't claimed vanilla townie.


Just figured I'd address those points.

[iamausername]

It's true that he can hit power roles, but he doesn't have to kill randomly.

He does on Night 0.

Which is what was being discussed.

[iamausername]

I doubt I'm gonna be an NK target for it

Oh no, scum are totally going to go for a claimed vanilla townie.

[Rogueben]

Vote Count 4

Vamparific - (4) {Korts, forbiddanlight, strife220, Sun Tzu}

forbiddenlight - (2) {armix, StrangerCoug}

BlakAdder - (1) {roflcopter}

Lowell - (1) {Iron Man}

Greasy Spot - (1) {iamusername}

iamusername - (1) {Greasy Spot}

StrangerCoug - (1) {Lowell}

Not Voting: {BlakAdder, Enlight_Bystand, JordanA24, silence, -TinVision-, Vamparific}.

With 17 left alive it will take 9 to lynch.

Players are reminded that this is a game. Personal attacks are not acceptable. Greasy Spot has received his first warning.

[StrangerCoug]

Why did you claim at -4?? Claiming should NOT be done until you're at about -2. And just out the blue with no-one asking for a claim? What's that about?

Arguable. Cougar was holding his vote pending a claim

I may be misinterpreting you, but I don't remember posting anything that implied that I was waiting for you to claim something before doing anything with my vote. In fact, what I do remember is objecting to your doing so once you did.

The reason I left my vote on Lowell while considering you in the meantime is because I

WANTED

to give him a chance to defend himself, but it came to the point where, in my eyes, you were scummier than he was. I'll review your case and take a look at Vamparific's, but for now my vote on you stays.

[StrangerCoug]

Well this was an easy review xD

The first thing Vamparific does is answer roflcopter's question and votes for his answer, armlx. Then he attempts to distance himself from roflcopter by unvoting armlx, then he bandwagons forbiddanlight, then comes the "I keep screwing myself over" post, and then the unvote for forbiddanlight. He's posted way too little information to come off as townie to me, and while his posts are too close together to qualify as lurking in my book, his lack of content is what's about to kill him.

Unvote: forbiddanlight
Vote: Vamparific

[StrangerCoug]

EBWOP:

vamparific: The most obviously scummy player. The "I keep screwing myself over" post was the most fail in the game so far, and some of her other posts don't come very far behind.

Vamparific is male.

[Iron Man]

Kay. My vote on Lowell is no longer needed.

Unvote

I think that Vamp deserves my vote right now, because the reasons already stated. Opprotunistic bandwagoning. "lol, screwing myself over" is a scummy "I'm defeated you win" kinda statement. Also, he has posted extremely little in total and all of his posts are of very little actual substance.

Vote: Vamparific

I know this is pretty much the exact same post as the one Coug just made, but it's what I feel.

[strife220]

My god this game is moving fast. That's over 50 posts in the last 30 or so hours, I believe.


I don't like this post

Unvote, Vote: Greasy Spot

, by the way, which I should have done when I first noted that he failed to answer my question.

What authority in this game do you have to demand me to answer a question. Unless your too busy to read the thread and note that both Korts and myself have current arguments against Armix, you wouldn't be asking this stupidly obvious question.

Sounds a bit like a scum lash-out

I'm not the one who apparently changed my answer after 25 posts.

Idiot, do you think people can never change there minds about something. Your clueless if you think that.

vote: iamausername

for being too stupid to be a townie.

This I'm not happy with either, though not sure if it's a scum-tell or a "GS has a bad attitude" tell.


However, on the whole, I find the battle between IAU and GS to be fairly irrelevant. I don't see worthwhile tells coming out of this conversation anytime soon.

Back to the game. I'm getting very strong town-vibes from korts and forbiddan, though for different reasons. I'd like to hear more about the case against armlx, if there is one, and wonder why the case against strangercoug fell apart so quickly. I'm not ready to abandon hope...

I can understand town-vibes from Korts, but I don't get why you think forbidden is likely town. He's my #2 suspect right now. Please elaborate

I'm getting pro-town vibes from both IAU and GS. Which makes this debate all the more annoying.

More pro-town vibes. That makes 4 people you think are town just on D1. Forbidden got it right: way too many pro-town vibes and not enough scum-vibes. Marking this a suspicious, since scum have a much stronger motivation to declare who they think is town then pro-town players do. Really, there's almost no benefit for stating who you think is town on D1 - that's pretty much the opposite of scumhunting.



Still comfortable with my vote on Vampire. Interested in hearing more from Lowell.

[armlx]

This is poor logic because there is 5 scum compared to 15 town. So even if you eliminate 1 town (the vig himself), it's still only a 5 in 19 chance of hitting scum, with a decent chance of hitting a town power role.

I will be happy to argue the logic behind N0 vigging outside the thread some other time, but for now no one should bring up the subject any more as it will give away who can't be the vig if people agree/disagree.

[Korts]

This is poor logic because there is 5 scum compared to 15 town. So even if you eliminate 1 town (the vig himself), it's still only a 5 in 19 chance of hitting scum, with a decent chance of hitting a town power role.

I will be happy to argue the logic behind N0 vigging outside the thread some other time, but for now no one should bring up the subject any more as it will give away who can't be the vig if people agree/disagree.

And with that, you've just given away that you're not the vig. Good job.

[Enlight_Bystand]

Things are building up on Vamp quite quickly- he's at L-3 now.

Admittedly there seems a decent amount of evidence against him, even given the tiny amount they've posted, but I'm slghtly worried that we're tunnelling in on a single lynch target, and it might be worth looking around a bit for more info.

FL seems to be addressing the points put against them.

Roflcoptor, What in particular about BlakAdder appears scum?

The GS/iam thing seems to be reasonably benign, but will probably be something to look back at later.

I'm tempted by Vamp, but L-2 is too risky at the moment. I'd at the very least want to give them a chance to give a decent defence of their actions (or even any defence!)

[BlakAdder]

I agree with Bystand. I want to vote Vamp, but I'll give him a chance to give some particular defensive evidence against himself first. But for now,

FOS: Vamp

[JordanA24]

Blakadder has seemed very willing to follow bandwagons so far

FOS: Blakadder

[iamausername]

This is poor logic because there is 5 scum compared to 15 town. So even if you eliminate 1 town (the vig himself), it's still only a 5 in 19 chance of hitting scum, with a decent chance of hitting a town power role.

I will be happy to argue the logic behind N0 vigging outside the thread some other time, but for now no one should bring up the subject any more as it will give away who can't be the vig if people agree/disagree.

And with that, you've just given away that you're not the vig. Good job.

roflcopter, this is what rolefishing looks like.

Unvote, Vote: Korts