Open 80 - Double Day Mafia (Game Over!)

[Knight of Cydonia]

It's KoC, not KC. The day we forget the humble 'of' is the day I keel over and get raped by a panda. I don't call you Athenian, do I?

A SECRET RECIPE OF ELEVEN HERBS AND SPICES

forbiddanlight - 8 (killa seven, armlx, SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia, Joubert, CF Riot)
LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)
Gimbo - 1 (dcorbe)
Joubert - 1 (ShadowGirl)
CF Riot - 1 (forbiddanlight)

Not Voting - FaerieLord, LaptopGun, Gimbo, Firestarter

16 alive, 9 to lynch.

-Mod

[forbiddanlight]

Ah, L-1, and a new fight develops. I'm still dead, but that's probably going to end up noteworthy as well. Just saying .

[Knight of Cydonia]

Yeah, look, fl, we all know you're scum, or the most retarded townie ever, so stop trying to throw crap out there to try and get a townie lynch day 1.5.

[forbiddanlight]

Now now, no need for personal attacks, man with the completely unoriginal name after a relatively alright song that you probably first heard on Guitar Hero anyway.

[Knight of Cydonia]

I'd hardly call that a personal attack. I can make one if you'd like, just to make you feel special. Oh, and I've been a Muse fan since the first album. But this is all pointless crap, so maybe shut up.

[forbiddanlight]

Most retarded townie ever is what I was referring to. And really, I just felt like being a bitch in that last comment. I'm about to die, and there's nothing I can do about it. The least I can do is put what I've observed out there when (oh god, she's gonna say it again) I flip town.

[Knight of Cydonia]

You see, this is what annoys me most. Not the fact your only defences are "Oh, it was a plan, honest!" and "You'll be sorry when I flip town", it's the fact you're giving up already. If you were honestly town, you'd be fighting tooth and nail at L-1. Why aren't you? I've seen innocents turn a L-1 on them into a successful scum-lynch before, so saying it's a no-hoper is out of the question.

[forbiddanlight]

Haven't you fregging noticed I've been fighting tooth and nail this whole game? What have the past freggin 6 pages been? I'm telling you the damned truth, I'm putting my suspicions out there. No one WANTS to believe me, and everyone dismisses my defenses. So you know, really, what's the point of expending the effort that no one will listen to, when I have other games going that I can actually do something in? You say I'm "giving up"...well maybe I wouldn't give up if you all weren't so damn close minded about the plan facet!

[somestrangeflea]

dcorbe and killa seven have been prodded.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, I have an offer. If you guys want to start D1.5, I could hammer myself. However, I do want you all to consider everything I've said that was in actual analysis if I do this. I'm going to flip town, so there's no reason NOT to do this. It's just I figure you probably want to get past this relatively narrow K7/forbiddanlight thing soon. With my death that'll happen. I just want your word you'll consider the thoughts I put out there, even if you think I'm a "retarded townie"

[Corinthian]

Are we going to have the "would a townie self-hammer?" debate now? I've seen it argued both ways: only scum would suggest self-hammering/ scum would never suggest it.

It is a little odd that K7 decided to leave off contributing, considering he's a main player in the forbid discussion.

(@KoC: yes, Muse rocks, but so do pandas. My namesake's not the city, either.)

[ShadowGirl]

Well, I have an offer. If you guys want to start D1.5, I could hammer myself. However, I do want you all to consider everything I've said that was in actual analysis if I do this. I'm going to flip town, so there's no reason NOT to do this. It's just I figure you probably want to get past this relatively narrow K7/forbiddanlight thing soon. With my death that'll happen. I just want your word you'll consider the thoughts I put out there, even if you think I'm a "retarded townie"

I would think the opposite. If you a town, then you shouldn't self-hammer. We should be lynching scum, not townies.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, tell that to the other 8 people voting for me. Honestly, I think that people need to listen to what I said in my analysis. While they are turning deaf ears towards me, that's not gonna happen. If they continue to turn deaf ears towards it because I'm just a "retarded townie", then we still have made no progress and I die in vain. I'm bargaining by giving myself up for the sake of the town at least hearing my thoughts, and possibly reaching a conclusion that leads to scum lynched. That's the only real benefit I can see for my death and flip, so I'm willing to bring it on because I do want the town to win despite by bad play.

[Firestarter]

KoC, you may have been a bit harsh there
And Im personally not into the personal attck thingy, so that should stop as its going nowhere from 1st post onwards....
_______________________________________

FL, The whole basis of you being almost lynched at this time, is the exchange between you & K7. My problem was the extremely quick turnaround from Im quitting, to it was a plan.... If it was a plan, and this is a personal pov, I would want substantially more evidence that someone was scum, rather than just "He was the first to attack me, and therefore he must be scum" post. That has been the single biggest problem Ive had with you. Add this to the lots of posts saying, "It was a plan" and "What till I flip Town" does not help you at all.

However, I take the point on board that you have been actively responding to the posts from all and sundry regarding your allignment. Your activity level is quite high, and altough that alone does not remove suspicion, it has been taken into consideration, hence my removal of my vote from you.
And you commented on my leaving a FoS on you after I removed it, it was left there purely that I wanted to see you building cases, and trying for a proper defence....
Im not seeing that atm...

@ all players....
Im not convinced that FL is scum, Im more convinced shes played a bad game so far, and tbh, this wagon looks like a mislynch to me.... BUT...
Mislynch in the way that the reasons for lynching FL is not enough, imo.
Killa has hardly been around since voting FL, and other players seem content in sitting back, casting a vote with a token post, and let it go from there.

There is no need to rush a lynch through at this time, there is no deadline from what Im aware of (Does not go back to check for deadline). And discussion for a longer period is inherently better for town, we will simply gather more info to work with.

I will be going back through the pages this evening (Hopefully) and post some summaries on whats there.

I would ask all to refrain from hammering FL at this moment, that includes you FL, and take time to have a reread.

[forbiddanlight]

Well, what else can I say? The whole problem is that the attack on me is based off the it wasn't a plan thing and the fact that I accused someone of being scum for taking advantage of my self vote. The problem is overall the plan was a failure. I was hoping to see a bit more action, but no one was willing to touch it except killa. I disagree with a lot of what he said. I agree I shouldn't have said he was definitely scum, that was more me appealing to emotion to get him dead because I strongly believed it at the time. What I don't like is the fact that he really hasn't been around except for a few token posts as I pointed out.
Unfortunately, I'm not even sure WHAT to make of your current behavior firestarter. You seemed to be trying hard to twist my posts earlier, but now you are somewhat defending me. If you wanted to push my mislynch, you could hammer me now. I am feeling significantly less sure about your scumminess, which wasn't too sure already.
As for defense which I ended up getting off of, as I said, my only defense is insistance it was a plan, which no one buys. I mean, how can I prove it was a plan? I tried answering the other accusations on me in an earlier post. I think I've been very cooperative in answering questions people have asked me. I honestly have no idea what else I can say. Everyone is ignoring whatever defense I put up so certain that I wasn't planning anything and I'm trying to cover up bad play. So as I said to KoC, what's the point? I have no idea what you people want from me, so in the end, the only benefit I see from my death, as I said, is my flip, and the analysis I posted so far. If people don't agree with it, fine, but I still want to see people looking at it, considering it, pointing out where it's wrong if it is, pointing out where I have a point if I do have one. No one seems to have addressed it except in a perfunctory way.

I will admit I gave the scum a gift with my play this game. I did horribly because I was thrown off by a lot of factors. I'm trying to improve now, but I can only do so much. I at least, will not hammer myself til you've decided what you are going to do firestarter. But I'm pretty sure that you won't stop everyone. I'm likely dead soon. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a scum prepared to hammer me, because they don't even HAVE to jump on my wagon. There could be as little as one scum on my wagon, possibly none (though I doubt it). I actually trust most of the people on my wagon more than the people off it, as paradoxical as that seems.

This post meandered a lot, but I tried to seperate it into parts for easier reading. Whether it helps or not, I hope something happens to guide us in the right direction soon.

[killa seven]

ive allready stated what i think of self voting if your town.
so dont self hammer, thanks. unless your scum

[forbiddanlight]

Haha, well, I'm not sure I'll have to. There are probably a couple players willing to do the favor for me. I've stated the terms for why I'd self hammer, if that's what you all want. If you don't, then I won't, and we'll see how long I last at L-1.

[Firestarter]

Unfortunately, I'm not even sure WHAT to make of your current behavior firestarter. You seemed to be trying hard to twist my posts earlier, but now you are somewhat defending me. If you wanted to push my mislynch, you could hammer me now. I am feeling significantly less sure about your scumminess, which wasn't too sure already.

Ok, Im seeing a contradiction in this part of your post, you start it off with unfortunately, then end it with Im less scum in your eyes, can you clarify..

So as I said to KoC, what's the point? I have no idea what you people want from me, so in the end, the only benefit I see from my death, as I said, is my flip, and the analysis I posted so far. If people don't agree with it, fine, but I still want to see people looking at it, considering it, pointing out where it's wrong if it is, pointing out where I have a point if I do have one. No one seems to have addressed it except in a perfunctory way.

The Fact remains that most people have posted thoughts on your exchange/plan with K7 already, what you should do now is look to where you think scum is, and try to build a case. Its also in towns interest to keep our townies alive, you (if town) arent doing yourself any good with a defeatist attitude.

I at least, will not hammer myself til you've decided what you are going to do firestarter. But I'm pretty sure that you won't stop everyone. I'm likely dead soon. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a scum prepared to hammer me, because they don't even HAVE to jump on my wagon. There could be as little as one scum on my wagon, possibly none (though I doubt it). I actually trust most of the people on my wagon more than the people off it, as paradoxical as that seems.

Ok, first off, if I believed genuinly that you were scum after our exchange, I would not have removed my vote from you, it would still be there. If I see that I can put pressure on a player when they do look scummy from several posts, and you did look scummy after several posts, I will apply pressure to see ones reactions. To me, your reactions weren't absolutely brilliant, but they did not reek of scum either, regardless of some of the token posts that have been made in between, suggested.
BTW, Im not trying to stop players from voting you, Im merely asking for a thourough look through the posts that were made since the FL/K7 exchange flared up.

ive allready stated what i think of self voting if your town.
so dont self hammer, thanks. unless your scum

K7, since your around, any chance of some thoughts on FL now?
That pretty much goes for everyone else whos lurking/reading and not contributing.

[forbiddanlight]

Ok, Im seeing a contradiction in this part of your post, you start it off with unfortunately, then end it with Im less scum in your eyes, can you clarify..

I hate being wrong, which is what I'm being led to believe. It's unfortunate in my eyes. Things are easier when they are clear cut .

The Fact remains that most people have posted thoughts on your exchange/plan with K7 already, what you should do now is look to where you think scum is, and try to build a case. Its also in towns interest to keep our townies alive, you (if town) arent doing yourself any good with a defeatist attitude.

Well, I've already stated who I thought looks scummy, but that's all kinda changed, and I have to do another reread...but not another super analysis post yet. I agree the defeatist attitude isn't good defence, but I do kinda feel hopeless since there really doesn't seem to be a way out.

Ok, first off, if I believed genuinly that you were scum after our exchange, I would not have removed my vote from you, it would still be there. If I see that I can put pressure on a player when they do look scummy from several posts, and you did look scummy after several posts, I will apply pressure to see ones reactions. To me, your reactions weren't absolutely brilliant, but they did not reek of scum either, regardless of some of the token posts that have been made in between, suggested.
BTW, Im not trying to stop players from voting you, Im merely asking for a thourough look through the posts that were made since the FL/K7 exchange flared up.

I can understand that. Well, at least SOMEONE realizes I'm trying, even if I'm not doing well. A thorough look at this is really the best I can ask for. If someone could do that and take me a little bit away from the L-1 thing, that'd be nice .

K7, since your around, any chance of some thoughts on FL now?
That pretty much goes for everyone else whos lurking/reading and not contributing.

Kinda noticed that myself. I don't like how his posts are more rhetoric than actual analysis. (Course, some may accuse me of that @_@)

[Gimbo]

Ok....curiosity is really getting the best of me and its not often that I get to hammer.

let's find out forbid, shall we?

saw, wrench, screwdriver and HAMMER!

Vote:forbiddanlight

, reveal yourself!

[forbiddanlight]

So, that's how that is. The hammer. Interesting feeling. Enjoy D 1.5 after you see my flip.

Oh, and BAH, go townies.

[SpyreX]

I've made my feelings clear, but I'll chime in again so as to not be lurking.

FL's defense has, to some measure, made me wonder about her alignment some, but I am still definitely feeling that the behavior as a whole is scummy and she is probably scum.

[Manito]

Wow, did fl call in the cavalry to distract us, or something? Or is this just manito completely misreading every post Faerie makes for the fun of it?

Misreading posts? Is that why two other people have already agreed that FL's "I won't talk about anything else until fl is done with" and "I rarely vote" are both idiotic?

FL, you go on and on about how much you've contributed to this game with your PBPA's - but to be honest, all you have provided are short, uninvolved

commentaries

ABOUT people's posts, rather than providing

opinions

about current votes and discussions. Your reluctance to form an opinion and either place a vote (on fl or otherwise) is very suspicious.

Let's get a little PBPA on you, shall we?

--FL (205) #1: Simple post confirming presence in thread

--FL (206) #2: Rather uninformative PBPA highlighting the posts that stood out most to you, with small commentaries about your take on them. Some of your takes are mildly based on what seems to be your opinions on the actual scumminess of individuals, but largely you seem to point out things you just don't like about how someone posted. Quotes like "Speak English, Use Paragraphs", "Don't exaggerate", "I'm just nitpicking here", "That's pretty fucked up". Then you proceed (and this is laughable) to give the following nuggets of advice:

SpyreX and Manito. Stop agreeing and start posting
Dcorbe. Start posting
Gimbo. Don't give advice
Forbiddan. Stop thinking too much

So you're on your second post, a new replacement in the game, trying to run in and tell everyone what to do and how to think? Giving advice to people to NOT give advice? Who died and made you king?

Then you proceed to attempt to actually discuss the case at hand (fl's case) by asking if anyone has played with some random player from another game, whose name you can't even remember completely, in an attempt to compare his play (for which none of us has direct reference or relevance to the current game) to fl's. Then you even state that "I think lynching her is a good idea", yet you don't say why, in particular, and even worse, you still haven't placed a vote? Why the hesitation if you think it is a good idea?

--FL (220) #3: You respond to Armlx calling you out for (shocker!) the very same thing everyone here in the last few posts has called you out for - promoting a lynch but not voting! Then you make your other statement about not wanting to start other cases until fl is dealt with.

--FL (222) #4: More of your indecisiveness, in what looks like an A

T

E post (the same thing you'd been accusing fl of, ironically)...

Something huge to note here folks - Spyrex pointed out right after Post 4 for FL something very important, and FL "disappeared" for 36 posts right after it, without even making any sort of response to it - here is Spyrex's post:

Ok... what?

If you've got cases, share them.
Have opinions. Town needs voices, not lemmings.
If you dont think the lynch on Forbid is solid, stand up and go for it.

This post reeks so much of noncommittal I dont even know where to begin.

Why didn't you respond to this FL?

--FL (258) #5: The post you claim has so many other "options" is merely another nitpick by you pointing out how little 3 different people are posting. These aren't options, there is no case presented whatsoever (and oddly enough, you even STATE that, saying you don't want the fl case to lose momentum), so that kind of puts that theory of yours to rest.

--FL (267) #6: You state that you posted cases (even though you really haven't posted any cases with any sort of facts, just nitpicks) in an incorrect response to Armlx speaking to "fl", not "FL".

--FL (286) #7: You make a statement about me being more concerned about myself (a post which still mystifies me), a one line statement that really doesn't seem to contribute anything to the current discussion. Forbiddanlight's final question in my quote of her asks "Where is this discussion going?" - which is exactly my point. The discussion at that point, was going NO WHERE, which is why I quoted it, since I was getting flak from you and others about not posting enough. Why would I post more to add to a discussion that was going no where?

--FL (288) #8: Another short statement basically implying that I don't read the game and that I just agree with everyone.

Why you go off on the whole "agreeing" with everyone thing is beyond me, as I've said before, everyone has to agree at some point, otherwise we'll never get past day one because no one will agree on a lynch.

--FL (297) #9: Finally, a REAL post. Or is it? Oh, ironically, you're replying to

my

rather long post, defending yourself. Might I also add, you're defending yourself very emotionally, is the cursing really necessary?

3) It's not "not posting". It's not giving content. All you have said in this game has been agreeing with others. I have yet to see an original thought from you

Please, show me, where you have given an original thought or actual content that is contributing to anything but proving how non-committal and indecisive you are? Look in the mirror sometime

Again, read above. Saying I have posted no real opinions is frankly a lie, as I have shown

Shown where? I just did a PBPA on you, and no where do I see you having a

real

opinion - you have some non-committal half-opinions that go no where, but nope, no real ones.

No, it's not that simple. If I just post a case on someone else, the case will either be lost in the traffic (as is what happened) or people will accuse me of trying to make the wagon lose momentum.

The "simple" I was referring to was to either vote for her, or don't - either way, you can't seem to take a step in either direction (non-committal) and what's worse, you can't seem to give solid reasoning for it. Saying another case will be lost in traffic is baloney, there are plenty of people wanting to find a more solid choice than fl for our first lynch, otherwise she'd be lynched already. Saying people will accuse you of trying to make the wagon lose momentum is just you being afraid to stand up for what you think is right, if you have something concrete to contribute that will prove fl's innocence, you shouldn't be afraid to post it.

What is the purpose of any of your posts? Do we need people saying I agree?

Actually, yes, we do need people saying "I agree" - otherwise we'd be a whole game of FaerieLord's, standing around not voting and being non-committal on Day 1, while the thread grew rapidly towards 40 pages.

Fourthly, belittling? It's a case, obviously it's meant to show why people are scummy! What's the point of a case if it doesn't show scummy actions?

Cases showing people to be scummy still don't have to be belittling - you can try logical, it's a good way to do things if you want to be heard for what you're saying, and not how you're saying it.

As far as my "absenses" - I work more than full time (yay for salaried), and have a fiancee - and as you have already so "aptly" pointed out, I don't post much. This just goes to show, neither of us has any right, whatsoever, to attack anyone else for not posting - it happens to everyone. So stop trying to "make cases" based on not posting, it's just stupid.

Looks like the final vote was cast, we'll continue this discussion after.

[somestrangeflea]

End of Day 1.0 Votecount

forbiddanlight - 9 (killa seven, armlx, SpyreX, Manito, Corinthian, Knight of Cydonia, Joubert, CF Riot, Gimbo)

LaptopGun - 1 (Bogre)
Gimbo - 1 (dcorbe)
Joubert - 1 (ShadowGirl)
CF Riot - 1 (forbiddanlight)

Not Voting - FaerieLord, LaptopGun, Firestarter

After some discussion, it is decided that forbiddanlight should be the one who dies. Understandably enough, she does.

forbiddanlight,

Townie

, is dead.

It is now Day 1.5!

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. No players are currently voting.

[Gimbo]

shit