The Root of Toxicity in Mafia Games

[RadiantCowbells]

The easiest way to be bad is to think that you're better than you are.
The easiest way to be good is to keep your ability in perspective.

[Menalque]

disagree

the toxicity in league comes from immaturity certainly given that toxicity actively hinders your ability to win games

the toxicity in mafia is a result of a game where there are advantages to being toxic.

Toxic play in mafia gets reinforced with townreads, sheeping, and removed pressure and that makes the behavior more likely to recur

Toxic play in league is only reinforced internally rather than externally

I have no idea about league but I agree with RC here but with an addendum that I think most toxic play of this sort comes as a result of AtE being a major part of the current meta and that that should be phased out as much as possible if you want toxicity in games to reduce

[Menalque]

Idk if that’s a tautology tho

[popsofctown]

If I underrate myself will I lose a bunch?

[RadiantCowbells]

If I underrate myself will I lose a bunch?

Yes, you will.

[popsofctown]

Unexpected

[gobbledygook]

I have a policy of PLing anyone who hard defends scum bc I think it's just correct play and I don't think that's solely because I'm playing to future wincondition

I think giving scum the ability to defend each other and get away with it is bad for town and removing town that have really bad reads increases towns unity and chance of winning anyway

This makes so much sense now.

The easiest way to be good is to keep your ability in perspective

I don’t think this is true as a general principle. It does make people more pleasant to play with, in my experience.

[RadiantCowbells]

It's absolutely true. Over or underrating the correctness of your reads vs everyone elses hurts your winrate. Idk how you would argue that.

[Menalque]

ooi, do you track your read rate RC?

[Menalque]

Also what about the fact that read accuracy can sometimes vary wildly from game-to-game but when you’re in a game where it’s off it can be too far in before you have enough information to realise that?

[Menalque]

While still averaging out to a decent overall read rste from games where you solve correctly, for example

[popsofctown]

I don't track my read rate because I'm afraid of either developing an ego or inferiority complex that would hurt my winrate

[RadiantCowbells]

I don't know an objective way to do that.

I know last time I checked 68% or something of lynches in phases where I was alive were scum.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also what about the fact that read accuracy can sometimes vary wildly from game-to-game but when you’re in a game where it’s off it can be too far in before you have enough information to realise that?

I think that most people's scumreads % likely to be accurate is fairly consistent even if that means that it looks from an outside perspective like they have good games and bad games.

[OkaPoka]

disagree

the toxicity in league comes from immaturity certainly given that toxicity actively hinders your ability to win games

the toxicity in mafia is a result of a game where there are advantages to being toxic.

Toxic play in mafia gets reinforced with townreads, sheeping, and removed pressure and that makes the behavior more likely to recur

Toxic play in league is only reinforced internally rather than externally

I have no idea about league but I agree with RC here but with an addendum that I think most toxic play of this sort comes as a result of AtE being a major part of the current meta and that that should be phased out as much as possible if you want toxicity in games to reduce

Yeah I agree with this

And I think a huge part of AtE becoming standard town play is the shift from what the role of a townie should be.

I'm young one on this site, but when I first started, the standard for town was basically don't give a fuck about how scummy you are, your job is to scumhunt not look town. Whether you think thats optimal isn't the point of this post. But like, people who townhunted -> PoE was less than people who had a FoS pool to lynch with. And if you did get lynched, it was never your fault for being mislynched, its that the rest of town was bad, except in rare cases where someone is actively trolling.

But now I feel like a huge part of townplay is actually looking townie, like if you get mislynched you share that burden of responsibility. Along w the strat of townhunting/townbloccing ascending in popularity makes its kinda clear to me why AtE is prevalent, since its an easy way to get townread.

[RadiantCowbells]

Also maximum consecutive town lynches while I was alive (only counting my main) is 1, unless you count nomination when I literally couldn't lynch scum (which I don't)

[popsofctown]

Also what about the fact that read accuracy can sometimes vary wildly from game-to-game but when you’re in a game where it’s off it can be too far in before you have enough information to realise that?

I think that most people's scumreads % likely to be accurate is fairly consistent even if that means that it looks from an outside perspective like they have good games and bad games.

Even if it was inconsistent it wouldn't matter odds are odds. If Barry bonds strikes out his first two at bats you don't substitute him out. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

[gobbledygook]

How does keeping your own ability in perspective make you personally better at lynching scum, RC?

Edit: I mean this as like the theoretical General you, not you the person RC
I am asking for my own benefit lol

[Menalque]

I would think the best objective way to track read rate would be to look at number of lynched you were on that were on scum when alive

You could also include correctly called scum in addition to being on the scum lynch

As I doubt said statistics would ever be verified by anyone willing to deep-dive another player’s games sufficiently, you could also create a further category of reads you held if you think you’re able to be honest with yourself

Maybe the best way would be to have all 3 of those lists tracked, with the 1st serving as the strongest objective baseline for judging read accuracy, and the others being informative of it

[RadiantCowbells]

Even if it was inconsistent it wouldn't matter odds are odds. If Barry bonds strikes out his first two at bats you don't substitute him out. That's not how this works. That's not how any of this works

Correct, but individual players often have a tendency to misunderstand how that probability works and think that they have 'good games' where they play better than 'bad games' when most of the variation is simply that they are a % likely to scumread scum and sometimes that hits and sometimes that misses.

[OkaPoka]

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=59578

heres a thread that i think would have very different opinions if posted today

[Menalque]

Also what about the fact that read accuracy can sometimes vary wildly from game-to-game but when you’re in a game where it’s off it can be too far in before you have enough information to realise that?

I think that most people's scumreads % likely to be accurate is fairly consistent even if that means that it looks from an outside perspective like they have good games and bad games.

Yeah what I’m trying to say is that if the average is that someone identifies 2/3 scum in minis, but that’s from some games where they get 0 or 1, others where they full solve, and others still where they get 2/3, why should their reads be trusted if you don’t know if in that particular game they’re in a game where they’re likely to full solve or likely to get 0/3?

[RadiantCowbells]

Yeah what I’m trying to say is that if the average is that someone identifies 2/3 scum in minis, but that’s from some games where they get 0 or 1, others where they full solve, and others still where they get 2/3, why should their reads be trusted if you don’t know if in that particular game they’re in a game where they’re likely to full solve or likely to get 0/3?

Do you have an alternative way of solving the game that is going to have a higher EV?

[RadiantCowbells]

No, you don't know.

But if your EV of hunting scum is average (1/3 in mini) and someone elses is 2/3 outside of the way your own personal feelings about ~your reads~ get in the way why would you go with 1/3 over 2/3

[Menalque]

Also, if we take you specifically as an example RC, how should you be played around as town in your own opinion?

Should you just always be BoP’d the day before lylo if you haven’t lynched scum by that point? Likewise, if you do lynch scum and then don’t die to a NK, should you always be PL’d on the basis that “correct” play from scum would be to NK you?

NB: I understand if you don’t wanna answer these questions because you think it would hurt your game