Mini Normal 2109 | Newbie Quotes II: Newb Boogaloo (Day 3)

[Billy Pilgrim]

Wow, few folks I know here. Hey Arkias, is this your first game outside newbie queue?

Imma try and catch up over the next 24 hours. 19 pages so give me some time.

In the meanwhile, I see that the votes are pretty spread out so UNVOTE:

[Billy Pilgrim]

Eth0s, we played anywhere but 223 together, where you pulled one of the weirdest gambits I ever saw when you were town?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy, can you give a readlist?

I'm only through pg 4. I will get to the rest later. But as of pg 4, I'm liking invisibility a good bit. Not liking Dollys play all that much, think that she opportunistically hopped onto Sausarex, then backed off after a pretty nai explanation. Not scumreading her, but it just felt strange and stuck out. I think I like Alimdia's interactions with invisibility, I think that their interactions with your slot on pg 4 are less natural. I dont know why when they're looking at the interaction you are having with invisibility and identify what you're doing as a misrep they dont vote and put pressure on you.

Not liking your play as of the end of pg 4. I think your interactions with Invisibility arent good. I see you excessively shading and i dont see you trying to sort his motivation. I think you're trying to make him look bad rather than find out his alignment, and that sort of play comes from scum more than it comes from town.

Still catching up. Will have more tomorrow morning.

[Billy Pilgrim]

hi again billy!

Hey rb. Maybe we'll get to play longer together this time. Last time I was distracted and it only lasted a day.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Caught up to pg. 12. Still getting caught up.

I like rb's play as town. Dont think I agree on the thing from invis being a slip though. Was definitely bad, and the fact that he was voting there and kept voting there is weird, maybe I'm wrong on this, but I don't think this is a scumslip.
When LUV came in it made me question my early read of invisibility. I'm gonna have to look those first few pages over. But I wanna know why he had the most to say abo uh t invisibility but ended up voting Dolly.

Gonna have some more questions when I finish, but invis, explain what you meant by saying you love when town self-votes and if you thought Jake was town there, why were you still voting there?
Dolly's joke mason claim (@invis - it also may draw a cc which is what makes it scummy, I honestly dont get a town motivation from a mason fakeclaim) coupled with her strange early play around a couple of wagons, hopping on after others have hopped on using reasoning that she could have used to be the first to hop on, this is mainly about Sausarex, makes me have real concerns about her slot. AMD I'm not getting many townie vibes. Her defense to the jokeclaim concerns was to say it made Wake obvtown, but I dont know how it accomplished that. I actually like wakes response to her calling him obvtown as a result, but Dolly is pinging me hard.

Jake's play is bad. Rb is saying it's bad not scummy, but I'm seeing alot of shade and not a whole hell of a lot of attempting to find town. His top townread being sausarex really stuck out (I like Alimdia, but not more than a couple of other people) at the time he did that huge wall didnt make alot of sense to me. The selfvote and behavior under pressure certainly didnt read town to me.

So far liking joey. Dont know why he thinks Jake town told in his first three posts though.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don't like Kcdaspot's slot. So far they have generated more fluff than a cotton candy machine.

VOTE: Kcdaspot

Why'd you wait until my predecessor replaced out to vote him?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Here's where I am at the moment:
VOTE: Dolly

Dont like the positioning around wagons early (in particular the Sausarex one). Sausa votes the mod at 14. Dolly posts next and says nothing about the mod vote just says she's an alt. Then 4 posts later rb votes him then Eth0s next. Then Dolly votes third. @Joey - while I dont agree with you on you thinking her reaction was townie , what do you think about that early positioning? Also, 32 she backed off this vote almost immediately which is something she shaded rb for later after her joke claim (post 181).

Dont see a reason for the jokeclaim as town. Dont see why she'd call Jake's response obvtown.

Given that the only thing Dolly sees scummy from invis is a pretty weak slip, dont get why she's like dead set on this lynch to the exclusion of all else.

Also 441 feels like scum trying to keep their mislynch options open when she won't say one way or another whether she thinks invis slipped.



Questions from my catchup:
@tris - you said you liked rb and Eth0s's vote on Sausarex after he voted the mod. Dolly had also voted there, but you didn't mention it, why? I have the exact same interpretation of that behavior so I want to know if we're on the same page for reasons.

@Eth0s - why were you townreading my slot before I replaced in?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Dolly blew up the thread with the votes on her last night. I'm gonna have to sort back through it tomorrow after I get some time. Brain fried from the weekend, and honestly skimming through it made me want her gone to end the distraction.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Damnit Dolly, if you're town, you broke this game. I do not understand why the fuck you think it was town motivated to set these ridiculous conditions and then badger people over them. You got evidence of this working even once? You said that scum cant resist, you got any proof of that or just your dogged insistence that that's the case?

@Wake - in response to your wall, what the actual fuck was the purpose of your question? You asked me about 491 amd said if I had to choose just one to vote between Dolly, invis, and Jake, who would it be? Well I chose one. And that was 15 posts later at 504. So seriously, what was the purpose of that question? And you said nothing else. I want that read list since you said you were working on it.

@Alim - I didnt devote alot of time to talking about you because my read of your slot is mostly null. Its null-town and I was scumreading Sausa so when I was commenting on Jake's readslist I didnt want to communicate that I was scumreading you. I get why it may have confused you, but that was my thought process.

[Billy Pilgrim]

You shouldn't be upset that I caught scum. It's unorthodox but it workrd. Letting Jake survive this lynch will just pushbhim into endgame eventually. Who wants to Lylo with Jake this game?

That slot is compromised.

I wouldn't wanna LYLO with Tris either.

Uh. . . This came outta nowhere, why?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Well that's a hammer. Eth0s asked for more time. You asked for more time and were granted it, so I see you're done now.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Dolly - you're dead, was your flailing an act and you're scum or are you in fact town?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yo guys I'm actually a 100 voter

What does this mean?

[Billy Pilgrim]

sigh

please don't hammer this before I post again.

I'm starting to think we shouldn't hammer it at all. I'll elaborate on that and much more when I'm on next.

@ethos can you expand on that

Isnt eth0s dead?

[Billy Pilgrim]

#689 EBODP

Also, this is an impossible pov to have. You awknowledge a vig (aka you noticed a 2nd night kill) yet you failed to notice who got killed? what town not give a fuck about who get killed at night?

So if it's impossible, what do you think is the most likely explanation?

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: LUV

I forgot LUV was in this game until this post.

[Billy Pilgrim]

And as far as I am concerned, you are the first one to bring up the hammer as being something that you could be pushed on, which shows that you are very aware your hammer sucked ass lol

Well, to be fair, Dolly kind of sucked ass.

I'm starting to change my Town-meta in this regard (starting to not hammer) because hindsight is 20/20 and Scum almost always tries to go after me for hammering.

if only town made a good 2-3 posts explains why Dolly had a town pov.. wait

Eh, I mainly just wanted Day 1 to end and I was getting annoyed.

However, I can now start digging into this game.

explaining* man im tired af and i just typo like crazy

See?

I can't focus, and you can't write.

Were you satisfied with people's reactions to what you deemed your A-E post?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy, it feels like you are coasting. Would you mind making content, a read list, anything

Waiting on an answer to my question at Wake.

My town read is a dead pr. I think you're still town.

At the moment, got no problem with a push on Jake, or LUV. Think that a Wake vote may be best but want that question answered before I commit.

[Billy Pilgrim]

You shouldn't be upset that I caught scum. It's unorthodox but it workrd. Letting Jake survive this lynch will just pushbhim into endgame eventually. Who wants to Lylo with Jake this game?

That slot is compromised.

I wouldn't wanna LYLO with Tris either.

Uh. . . This came outta nowhere, why?

This didn't really come out of nowhere, read my ISO

@Alim - I didnt devote alot of time to talking about you because my read of your slot is mostly null. Its null-town and I was scumreading Sausa so when I was commenting on Jake's readslist I didnt want to communicate that I was scumreading you. I get why it may have confused you, but that was my thought process.

I forgot to mention this last day, but you said I'm null-town but you were also scumreading me?


Billy slot is weird (I haven't reread kcda)

I think you misinterpreted that. I said you were null/town. I was scumreading Sausa, and you were close in proximity to him on Jake's readslist. Because I said I was concerned by the top of the list, I didnt want anyone to incorrectly infer that I was scumreading you.

[Billy Pilgrim]

^not explaining until Sausa posts more

TRs now: Joey, Arkias

My lynchpool today: {Billy, tris}
Maybes: {Invis, wake, jake}

Case me please. You said my slot was weird a few posts before this one, can you explain that as part of the case?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hey, ofhrz is here. Welcome. You said you were townreading Vizzy and Jake. Who is Vizzy?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think you misinterpreted that. I said you were null/town. I was scumreading Sausa, and you were close in proximity to him on Jake's readslist. Because I said I was concerned by the top of the list, I didnt want anyone to incorrectly infer that I was scumreading you.

I still have no idea what you're saying

Ok, let me try one last time, then I'm gonna give up.

In the original post, I said that Jake's readslist set me off, mostly because he was only townreading 2 people both of whom were townreading him. At the same time, I was reading Sausarex as kinda scummy, and he was one of the people in Jake's townreads. Given that you were the other person that Jake was townreading and I had you as null town, I commented on that because I thought there was a risk of somebody drawing an improper inference about my read of you since you were in the category that I was commenting on.

Basically, I did it to avoid confusion and it just seems to have created it. So I apologize.

Can someone explain to me how Jake is town? Because I'm not seeing it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Damnit Dolly, if you're town, you broke this game. I do not understand why the fuck you think it was town motivated to set these ridiculous conditions and then badger people over them. You got evidence of this working even once? You said that scum cant resist, you got any proof of that or just your dogged insistence that that's the case?

This is an overreaction to what dolly did. It feels fake

Also billy was voting for dolly and presumably had her as a scumread of some strength

Why would you get mad at someone’s gameplay if they’re a scumread who was doing dumb things and getting voted?

@Wake - in response to your wall, what the actual fuck was the purpose of your question? You asked me about 491 amd said if I had to choose just one to vote between Dolly, invis, and Jake, who would it be? Well I chose one. And that was 15 posts later at 504. So seriously, what was the purpose of that question? And you said nothing else. I want that read list since you said you were working on it

I feel like this was weirdly aggressive.

I’ve played with billy before - i think this kind of tone is out of character.

——

generally Billy’s posts are pretty towny when he’s town. He has a sort of scumhunting energy that really shines through his posts that I’m not seeing here.

I found his original reasons for voting dolly kind of weak as well.

I dont think it was an overreaction. I think she completely destroyed the gamestate by trying to force a duel with Jake. I also dont see why my case against her was weak. It was wrong, clearly, but I dont think I was way off for finding those things indicative.

As for your read of my tone, I can see that. I was less aggressive that game, but I also dont really remember anything driving me into an intense level of frustration. Most of my other games where I get frustrated have a tone like this. I'm thinking mostly of a newbie I played with Norwegian where I felt like his evasiveness was hurting the forming of solid townreads.

The fact that your slot flipped its read of me so quickly is probably due to two different players reading the game genuinely differently rather than a quick change in agenda. I think scum would be a bit more self-aware than that.

I think Ofhrz is probably town here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: wake yeah sure sounds good

I think you've now sheeped 3 different slots. Can you come up with your own reason for voting any of those 3.

[Billy Pilgrim]

my read on you was original

Can you explain it?

[Billy Pilgrim]

It was her early day play that made me think she was scummy. Her later day play made me not want to play with her. I think the early day play should have raised some alarms. Hopping on that mod vote after two other people when she didnt mention it as the first poster afterwards.

Also, I get weirded out when people talk about my ability to form reads in a positive light. I got you killed when i was the conf!town. Was i considering your play holistically there? Yeah, i read Neza as town based on his reaction to being almost hammered. I didnt see Dolly's reaction in the same light because she was aggro while it was happening. Neza seemed resigned. The tone was different. So I didnt do the hard flip like inhad with Neza in that game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Billy, can you link me a scum and town game of yours so i can lock my read on you

My most recent scum game is open 769. Other than that I haven't completed a scum game. Replaced out of mini normal 2098. And the nonary game was a mini theme. All the other completed games are town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sorry fellas can we not do meta lol? Talking about Billy's games

Hmm... why dont you want other people using meta in their cases?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Scum/Invisibility - I did not like his interaction with Jake and I did not like the vote on Alimdia and he didn't even explain his vote. On day 2 all he's doing is sheeping.

what about them? also why didn't you like my vote on Alim and how did I not explain it?

On #379 you voted Alimdia without providing a reason. I'm looking back on your posts right now and was your explanation on #380? It would have been alot more easier for me to see if you put your explanation and vote on the same post since I did not know your explanation was on #380 instead of it being on #379.

Adorbs - why did you vote Vizzy over Billy?

My list I made is towniest to scummiest. I voted Vizzy because he is on the bottom of my list.

What’s wrong with sheeping? I think it’s better to sheep townreads if you have no strong scumreads than to not vote at all and having your vote be wasted.

I saw that you also think billy is playing his scum meta. Can you go into that? Would you be interested in building a billy wagon?

The game I played when Billy was scum he was asking players questions, providing his thoughts, and voting players he was scum reading. A player scum read Billy saying his play looked different from the last time they played with him and Billy got lynched because of that. I'll also be interested in building a Billy wagon.

Is there a particular player you think I got my read on wrong like for example do you think one of the players I'm leaning town you're leaning scum on?

I’m also low key curious why you responded to sauce but not Joey saying basically the same thing about your read list

Saus asked me a question I responded back to and Joey did not ask me a question.

@Adorable, if my scum meta is asking questions, providing thoughts and voting my scum reads, did you look at my town meta? Is it any different than that?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I will reread tomorrow morning. At the moment, I'm not ecstatic about the game state because I'm getting pushed by a player I'm pretty sure is town. Clearly i messed up with Dolly yesterday. That lynch happened pretty early in the day. I'm pretty skeptical of Wake here. I know hes V/LA so I cam wait until he comes back, but I see him hammering with plenty of time left in D1 when Eth0s was coming around on a read and saying he didnt want to hammer. That was about 1 day after he had asked no one to hammer until people engaged with his analysis engagement post. Now is that too obvious to be scummy? Maybe, but

[Billy Pilgrim]

I will reread tomorrow morning. At the moment, I'm not ecstatic about the game state because I'm getting pushed by a player I'm pretty sure is town. Clearly i messed up with Dolly yesterday. That lynch happened pretty early in the day. I'm pretty skeptical of Wake here. I know hes V/LA so I cam wait until he comes back, but I see him hammering with plenty of time left in D1 when Eth0s was coming around on a read and saying he didnt want to hammer. That was about 1 day after he had asked no one to hammer until people engaged with his analysis engagement post. Now is that too obvious to be scummy? Maybe, but

Ugh, misclicked. Finishing the above. Maybe it is too obvious to be scum, but if he thought it was gonna keep the focus off a partner there was incentive there. I don't see town motivation in refusing to do a reads list when requested when he had promised it and made a big deal of holding off on a hammer until it came. And I think that definitely doesnt jibe with his earlier expressed attitude of ignoring D1.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Adorable, I recall what you are talking about, I think I actually touched on it briefly.

I will reread tomorrow morning. At the moment, I'm not ecstatic about the game state because I'm getting pushed by a player I'm pretty sure is town. Clearly i messed up with Dolly yesterday. That lynch happened pretty early in the day. I'm pretty skeptical of Wake here. I know hes V/LA so I cam wait until he comes back, but I see him hammering with plenty of time left in D1 when Eth0s was coming around on a read and saying he didnt want to hammer. That was about 1 day after he had asked no one to hammer until people engaged with his analysis engagement post. Now is that too obvious to be scummy? Maybe, but

You know you have no votes on you right? Hardly a push.

Sure, but shes trying to find out whether theres interest in a wagon on me and Adorable seems to be interested. So I'd classify that as a push.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Scum/Invisibility - I did not like his interaction with Jake and I did not like the vote on Alimdia and he didn't even explain his vote. On day 2 all he's doing is sheeping.

what about them? also why didn't you like my vote on Alim and how did I not explain it?

On #379 you voted Alimdia without providing a reason. I'm looking back on your posts right now and was your explanation on #380? It would have been alot more easier for me to see if you put your explanation and vote on the same post since I did not know your explanation was on #380 instead of it being on #379.

Adorbs - why did you vote Vizzy over Billy?

My list I made is towniest to scummiest. I voted Vizzy because he is on the bottom of my list.

What’s wrong with sheeping? I think it’s better to sheep townreads if you have no strong scumreads than to not vote at all and having your vote be wasted.

I saw that you also think billy is playing his scum meta. Can you go into that? Would you be interested in building a billy wagon?

The game I played when Billy was scum he was asking players questions, providing his thoughts, and voting players he was scum reading. A player scum read Billy saying his play looked different from the last time they played with him and Billy got lynched because of that. I'll also be interested in building a Billy wagon.

Is there a particular player you think I got my read on wrong like for example do you think one of the players I'm leaning town you're leaning scum on?

I’m also low key curious why you responded to sauce but not Joey saying basically the same thing about your read list

Saus asked me a question I responded back to and Joey did not ask me a question.

@Adorable, if my scum meta is asking questions, providing thoughts and voting my scum reads, did you look at my town meta? Is it any different than that?

I will have a look at your town games and see what your town meta looks like.

So you leaned me scum based on playing within my scum meta and didnt check to see if it was outside my town meta? And I mean, the things you pointed out, asking questions of slots, providing thoughts and voting my scum reads, is any of that scum indicative from a meta perspective? I dont get how I'm scum from your perspective here. You replaced Arkias? So early on the Dolly Wagon, that sort of weird attitude around the Invisibility slot, and coming in with pretty shallow comments and conf!biasing me toward scum while Ofhrz was soft pushing me.

VOTE: Adorable
I think the Pokemon may be trying to murder us in our sleep.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@Adorable, if my scum meta is asking questions, providing thoughts and voting my scum reads, did you look at my town meta? Is it any different than that?

Wait actually I don’t know how I missed jigglypuff’s post the first time around but

Asking questions, providing thoughts, voting scumreads are all things people do as town??? Even if those are things billy did in his last scum game, it probably comes from him emulating his town meta rather than it being scum indicative

That was my point, that really threw me off when I read the post.

[Billy Pilgrim]

This gamestate feels dead. So I think it's more likely to be a lurker at this point. I think Wakes EoD play is concerning. Both in demanding time to put out his reads list, then refusing to do that when pressed, and instead quick hammering when Eth0s wanted more time. I also think that his Analysis Engagement post was more to look townie than actual thoughts. He didnt follow up with anyone when they answered his questions and his question to me was already answered.

I'm down for this. I know hes V/LA, but he had an opportunity to answer my question before he left and he didnt.

I didn't forget about Adorable. I dont see why Joey counted him out. Him including that piece about being consistent with my scum meta in his early case, then explaining that my scum game was me asking questions explaining thoughts and voting my scum read, and then complaining to me when I said that's a dumb reason, then acting like I was the one who made the read about me when it was more about my predecessor is pretty shady.

I'm feeling mostly lost in this game, but I'd be down for lynching either of those slots.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah, I can see Adorable as more lynchbaity than scum.

VOTE: Wake

By my count that's L-3.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I snipped the quote since it was so long.

The first thing you mentioned wasnt about her being third on an RVS wagon, it was her being 3rd on an RVS wagon using reasoning that she had available to her at a time when she could have been first on the wagon. That pinged me because it looked like it was taking advantage of the opportunity.

I'm gonna cut and paste my reasoning from 504:
Dont like the positioning around wagons early (in particular the Sausarex one). Sausa votes the mod at 14. Dolly posts next and says nothing about the mod vote just says she's an alt. Then 4 posts later rb votes him then Eth0s next. Then Dolly votes third.

32 and 181 was something I was reading in conjunction. She shaded rb because he had been 3rd on the invis wagon and she said he was looking for an excuse to get off it, which I said is something that may have been her motivation on 32 when it didnt light fire. Dolly didnt mention rb in 181, but I'm pretty sure based on the game state at the time it was in reference to him.

I also mentioned the joke claim, the overconfidence wrt to invisibility's slot. Btw, I know I have a meta that's different from other players here and it gets my reads off. This time it has ofhrz scumreading me. I'm not all that confident in my reads. So when I was getting frustrated at Dolly it's because I figured there was at least a decent chance she was town and frustrated. I still thought she was my best lead for scum, but because I'm wrong often, I figured that it could be genuine from her.

Honestly the overconfidence usually pings me from town since the only people that should be that confident about alignments are scum. So I'm finding it interesting that this is the first time I'm being scumread for my lack of confidence when i have frequently scumread folks for overconfidence.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Honestly the overconfidence usually pings me from town since the only people that should be that confident about alignments are scum. So I'm finding it interesting that this is the first time I'm being scumread for my lack of confidence when i have frequently scumread folks for overconfidence.

I don’t think anyone is really scumreading you for lack of confidence

I'm reading into what your comments about me were. You thought my reaction toward a scumread wasnt genuine. I always think theres a decent chance that a scumread of mine is town. So when she tried to drag herself and Jake into the 1v1 deathtunnel, my frustration was real. Because I've seen plenty of townies do scummy things, and it hurts my ability to swing my read around. You've seen me swing my read around on a dime, but with what she was doing with Jake I wasnt gonna be able to do that. Eth0s was coming around at the end, but i didnt think i was going to be able to. That was my frustration.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Does anyone know what the likely number of scum is in this setup? I think this is my first time playing at this after count. Haunted Village was around this player count but an open setup so we knew 3 scum. Is that what's likely here? I ask, because that means that if we mislynch tomorrow is probably LYLO or MYLO.

[Billy Pilgrim]

oh wait never mind we’re in mylo regardless

Huh?

[Billy Pilgrim]

That last post from Invis may have been a slip, but maybe it was my phrasing since Ofhrz did the same thing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I read 953 as you knowing Wake's alignment. I then reread my post and realized that I had said if today is a mislynch then we're in MYLO or LYLO tomorrow.

So I realized that 953 is more likely due to my original phrasing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why is it that it feels like the only people that are playing are me joey ofhrz and invisible, and yet no one has hit prod range yet.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I don’t like that Wake is posting elsewhere right now though so I think I’ll have to compromise.

For one, don't talk about my on-going games.

For two, I'm now going to catch up on this game.

I've now seen this said in response to a comment like LUV' comment on multiple occasions, and I'm pretty sure its bullshit. Micc's comment on the discussion thread about the ban of talking about ongoing games gave examples of how you can talk about games and how you cant. He said you werent allowed to provide specifics, but that comments like the one LUV made were specifically fine. The ellitell is useful, and you flipping out about it is even more suspicious.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I vaguely remember being in this game.

I should probably replace-out, but then again that's not very nice to the game mods.

See the second paragraph here is actually against the rules.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ark replaced-out right? I just realized that it's bullshit because she said many times in game she was hyped about playing a non-newbie games

That's the Adorable slot right now.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ark replaced-out right? I just realized that it's bullshit because she said many times in game she was hyped about playing a non-newbie games

That's the Adorable slot right now.

i did some detective works and i think it was a mix between the timing of the night 9-11th of december, being vla 11-13 and then site flaking a bit. It's most likely not AI

I drew a different conclusion from the replace out, but maybe I'm wrong. I'm at least willing to see what happens today.

[Billy Pilgrim]

What does which one mean? Does it mean which conclusion?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah, I think it's right that hes at L-1. I wrongly wrote that he was at L-3 when he was L-4 then I counted 3 votes. Adorable wasnt voting him.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Sauce, you never talked about your townread on wake

After his recent posting since my read list, and another reread, I no longer townread him.
In fact:
VOTE: Wake88

If anyone wants more explanation for this just ask, but I think it’s pretty clear.

I understand your read being stale

But I’m still curious why you townread him in the first place

I had felt that I could overlook some of his scummy behaviour based on the quality of his a/e post (which I do still like), but the scumminess is just too much now.

What was good about that post? Because his questions to me had already been answered so I sorta ignored the rest of it, because he didnt have any reads that he expressed, so the questions just looked like questions rather than advancing the game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

@sauce

I am your one of your 2 scum-leaning slot and pushing on one of your ex-townread

Aren’t you 2nd guessing that I am lynching town?

No. I feel good about my read on Wake, and even if you weren’t pushing him, I believe I would’ve come to the same conclusion.
Besides, it’s a common tactic for mafia to push other mafia. It happened to me in my very first game.

I like this answer.

[Billy Pilgrim]

But @Saus - do you think Joey as mafia with Wake starts the push on him? Scum usually bus, but do they start the bus?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Shit, we're in MYLO arent we?

[Billy Pilgrim]

is it safe to vote

Probably. If theres only 3 scum 2 people would need to vote town and then the three scum would need to coordinate. So not really safe, but not where you cant vote at all. Who do you think it is Invis?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Adorable or Jake I guess. my tr of Jake was more or less dependent on my sr of your slot and I don’t sr your slot anymore. with that it makes jake the second weakest link. I’m gonna VOTE: adorable though.
I think we shouldn’t have more than one person vote a slot unless we’re, like, sure of it.

So the two people you're most suspect of were both people that were off wagon on the last lynch?

Also, what made you stop sr'ing my slot? I helped lynch both town slots. And I drove one of them pretty hard. What changed your read?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hell I just checked, Jake hasn't been on either wagon. Jake you playing the game?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I notice we only have a single death this night. If it were true that there was a vigilante, doesn't that mean that either the vigilante decided not to kill, or either mafia or vigilante's kill was blocked by a doctor?

You know something here? You seem to be fishing around here.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Man is anyone still playing? We're like 6 hours in now and theres like 7 posts. Comeon folks.

I think today may be the day for massclaim. We're probably in MYLO. Assuming vig, it's either gated or a kill got blocked last night. It would be nice if folks could weigh in on whether a mass is a good idea here.

I think it makes sense.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I wanted a couple of people to claim before me. I'm a pretty heavily gated pr. I'd like Invisand LUV to claim before I disclose the rest though.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Ready to claim.

We're waiting

*insert gif here*

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'd like to wait until Invis claims, then I'll out the rest of my role. Its Christmas Eve so cant promise I'll be here immediately, but within 12 hours of now, I'll be able to post.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was the night 1 universal backup. So I got the first pr to die, but only if it died on n1. So now that I've claimed, most of my value is gone, but I'm open to allowing folks better than me to tell me who to investigate.

[Billy Pilgrim]

does that leave jake and alim

And Joey who hasn't posted since the new day.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I was the night 1 universal backup. So I got the first pr to die, but only if it died on n1. So now that I've claimed, most of my value is gone, but I'm open to allowing folks better than me to tell me who to investigate.

Um, so you didn't use that 1 shot vanilla cop on n2?

Why did you have to claim AFTER Invis and Lil? You made it sound like you had info on them.

Also, I'll prefer to claim after Jake. Not saying I have info on him

No I didnt use my 1 shot on N2. Because this pr is of minimal utility. I wanted to try and get as many claims out there, then my plan was to check in the VT slots to see if I got a not vanilla result. Now I think I'll check in the claimed prs to see if I get a vanilla result.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah, that seems right at least from memory. Who should I check? Invis?

[Billy Pilgrim]

If this really is MYLO, we need to have a contingency plan for who I should shoot in the event we mislynch

I was actually thinking a no lynch may be best here. Then you dont shoot, or you shoot where the doc protects and it only gets a kill if scum target there. And gets like 3 conf townies.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah, Karnage is basically mech town at this point. Did Sausa claim targets? I cant remember. Should I check invis? Does anyone think hed claim a pr as a goon? I mean hell he may be a scum doc enabler, in which case my check would pseudo clear him.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah, Karnage is basically mech town at this point. Did Sausa claim targets? I cant remember. Should I check invis? Does anyone think hed claim a pr as a goon? I mean hell he may be a scum doc enabler, in which case my check would pseudo clear him.

hows it pseudo clear him

Because I'm just a vanilla cop. So all I can do is find out if someone was lying when they claimed a pr. If hes mafia doc enabler, I'd get a not vanilla result. So it would pseudo clear him because he wasnt lying about being a pr.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm a watcher with some limitations which I will not reveal at this point.

I have no useful results.

This is a normal game. I’m going to quote the wiki here:

“The Watcher is an informative role that can target a player at Night and learn who, if anybody, targeted that player the same Night (but not what actions were performed on that player).
Watchers have been seen as each alignment.
This version of Watcher, and only this version of Watcher, is considered Normal on mafiascum.net.”

Doesn’t this mean that having restrictions makes you not a normal role?

Restrictions could mean, loyal/disloyal modifier, it could be x-shot modified, it could be simple/complex like Sausa claimed, it could be limited by night like even/odd. All those are normal "restrictions."

[Billy Pilgrim]

^what billy said

If this really is MYLO, we need to have a contingency plan for who I should shoot in the event we mislynch

I was actually thinking a no lynch may be best here. Then you dont shoot, or you shoot where the doc protects and it only gets a kill if scum target there. And gets like 3 conf townies.

um the last paragraph makes no sense.
The claimed doctor powers is that it only protects vanillas, scum targeting there has no effect???

I'm basically treating the doc and vig as confirmed town now. Someone would have cc'd the vig. I dont understand targeting Eth0s like at all, but whatever.

So if both the vig and doc target the same VT, it would protect the VT from the vig's kill. Now obviously the vig can gambit here if he wants. But the doc protects a vanilla (goon or VT) from 1 kill. So if the VT dies, it means one of 3 things. 1) both scum and the vig targeted the same person, 2) the VT claim was a lie and the vig probably hit scum, or 3) the doc claim is a lie and doc is scum. I think the doc being scum is very low probability. So I think this either gets us a dead scum or conf!townie. And if scum choose to shoot there it keeps the doc and vig alive another day.

[Billy Pilgrim]

wouldn't it not conftown someone because if a goon got docced and vigged then they would be saved?
and also if we talk about it in thread can't scum just hit the person we decide to hit and win?

That's why we no lynch. Today is Mylo not LYLO.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I disagree on the vig and doc plan on the same person plan.
If I believe all of these claims, scum would have a roleblocker

This is solid reasoning. +1.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I think Invisibility was already a bit suspect from the day play. I also think the claim is strange. In fact, being a doc enabler seems to be a way to introduce balance if scum gets lynched early we lose our doc. I was gonna check there at night, but I think he may have been honest about the role and just scum aligned. Honestly, town isnt really trying this game. The one guy that was active D2 repped out. So I'm kinda counting on losing, because town isnt being all that cohesive at the moment. I'm good with a lynch on Invisibility unless someone wants to sell me somewhere else.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Also too much setup spec atm, need to get back to scumhunting the old fashioned way, unless you guys are determined to no lynch and lose our only confirmed town

It could be a Mafia vig, however.

No, it cant. Mafia vigs arent normal.

[Billy Pilgrim]

wouldn't it not conftown someone because if a goon got docced and vigged then they would be saved?
and also if we talk about it in thread can't scum just hit the person we decide to hit and win?

That's why we no lynch. Today is Mylo not LYLO.

How can you be sure its either? do we know how many scum there are?

No I'm guessing, but I heard that in this size game (13) it's always 3.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm a watcher with some limitations which I will not reveal at this point.

I have no useful results.

What results do you have? I don't seen any reason not to reveal them even if you don't think they are useful

Karnage, where you at. I'm pretty sure you've gotta be town and your reads are usually better than mine. Am I off on invisibility? Ofhrz seemed to think he was town.

[Billy Pilgrim]

should we do a HURT: vote for the vig/save and/or Billy's invest?

What do you think about alimdia saying that a roleblocker could derail that for me?

[Billy Pilgrim]

Less than 5 days left.

VOTE: LUV

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm a watcher with some limitations which I will not reveal at this point.

I have no useful results.

What results do you have? I don't seen any reason not to reveal them even if you don't think they are useful

Nobody visited Joey night 1

should we do a HURT: vote for the vig/save and/or Billy's invest?

huh?

I'm thinking Lil and Invis are scum before the claims even happened, and they've done nothing to change it.

In my opinion, you used the 1 shot too early and I would have saved it and used it on N3 or N2 to make better use of my 1 shot.

Cool.
Why'd you feel the need to say this?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I'm a watcher with some limitations which I will not reveal at this point.

I have no useful results.

What results do you have? I don't seen any reason not to reveal them even if you don't think they are useful

Nobody visited Joey night 1

should we do a HURT: vote for the vig/save and/or Billy's invest?

huh?

I'm thinking Lil and Invis are scum before the claims even happened, and they've done nothing to change it.

In my opinion, you used the 1 shot too early and I would have saved it and used it on N3 or N2 to make better use of my 1 shot.

Cool.
Why'd you feel the need to say this?

I don't like this question and the way how I read this post you sounded rude when you asked me this. It's better for a 1 shot Watcher to save their action for another night and using it on N1 can give you a high chance of your target getting no visitors. It would have also been good for alimdia to use his 1 shot on N3 and watch Karnage so that way mafia would not kill Karnage.

It was deliberately rude. Because it didnt accomplish anything except you shading a slot that I'm damn near convinced is town. So it felt scummy. Because he couldn't change it, so it sounded like you questioning whether it was genuine. And his slot is mad townie, so I was snarky.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Do you believe Saurus's claim then Billy?

I dont know. I got burned by setup spec in large 223 when someone fake claimed doctor and there were machos in the game so we assumed that the doc claim had to be true. Here, claiming simple seems real. I'm not gonna lie, I was pretty suspect of sausarex prior to the claim, so that claim is doing alot of work for me in terms of taking him out of my pool, but I think I have to believe it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

14 hours until deadline. God we deserve to lose since no one wants to play.

[Billy Pilgrim]

VOTE: LUV

Billy, if they flip town who do I shoot?

I think Invisibility? I don't know, I'm lost as hell in this game.

[Billy Pilgrim]

My msg accomplying the first quote disappeared:
I was gonna say that reminder that the simple doctor claim was after eth0s flipped a while ago on night 1 as a 'vanilla cop'. The part about your claim I find suspicious is when you claim your universal backup is only for Night 1, which seems weird.

I think it was to prevent swing. If we lost a pr night 1 I got to step in. It just so happened that we lost a weak one. I didnt claim simple doc. I claimed N1 universal backup. It was Sausarex that claimed simple doc.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I used my power last night. Adorable is Vanilla. So he claimed before my role reveal so I'm leaning toward that being a VT rather than a goon.

[Billy Pilgrim]

A goon would claim VT too though?

It's the timing of the claim. He claimed VT before I said I was vanilla cop. In fact, he claimed first. So he may be a goon, but I'm leaning actual VT due to timing.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Why does the timing of the claim matter? They also claimed pretty early in the claim, so both towndorable and scumdorable would claim VT.
I think its null. What else would a mafia goon claim other than VT?

I mean they claimed 1st. So they couldn't have done any of the kills or they would have immediately been CC'd. I mean what you're saying makes sense too I guess.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Alimdia, I'm pretty sure you're town. You are basically throwing every slot under suspicion now, but I think that comes from paranoia. I wanna double check what you thought wrt me saying to shoot invisibility and where you were voting.

But at this point, I dont know how my alignment isnt obvious. We're in MYLO yesterday, we mislynched. Scum either knows that Sausa's claim is a lie or that he can only target VTs. So scum can literally kill Kanrage for the win. Why the fuck would I bus my teammate in that scenario. I can literally say any town player that's potentially mislynch fodder, and we win. Why would I go after my partner and have to play another game? I mean, I get that you're paranoid, but this is a bit much.

Also, for all practical purposes, I'm pretty much a VT at this point. So I'll probably end up surviving to the last day.

So most likely there's 2 scum left and we have to lynch scum twice in a row or lose. I will code the VCs and see if that tells me anything.

[Billy Pilgrim]

672
Here's the Dolly lynch:

Spoiler:

Dolly

:

LUV

, Arkias (now Adorable), Billy Pilgrim,

tris (later ofhrz)

, SausasaurusRex,

rb, Wake88

Jake the Wolfie:

Dolly

, alimdia
Alimdia:

Invisibility

,

Eth0s

Wake88: Joey

Not voting: Jake the Wolfie

So on the first lynch, which was on town, no flipped scum on that wagon as of yet, but three unflipped players. Theres two counter wagons, both small, one with one scum on it.

1026
This is where Wake got lynched.

Spoiler:

Wake88

: Billy Pilgrim,

ofhrz

,

Invisibility

, SausaurusRex,

Joey, LUV

LUV

: Alimdia
Not voting:

Wake88

, Jake, Adorable

Here we have another town lynch, 1 scum on in slot 3. 2 unclipped players on. Alimdia on LUV. And Jake and Adorable not voting.

Now, yesterday 1183

Spoiler:

LUV

: Billy Pilgrim, alimdia,

Karnage

,

Invisibility

, SausaurusRex
No Lynch : Jake the Wolfie

Invisibility

:

LUV

Not Voting: Adorable

So Jake still not on a wagon, this is the first lynch Alimdia's been in on, second one for Adorable as well. And me and SausaurusRex in on this town mislynch as well. I know someone else had voted Invisibility so I wanna check some other stuff, including the other game where i had played with Jake, but I'm thinking i wanna flip Jake today.

[Billy Pilgrim]

61 the invis flips makes you look better here given that you accused him of opportunistically hopping on Jake, not sure why your vote didnt move though.

Holy shit, I see why I look bad on an invisibility flip, why was Kcda weirdly defending him at 63?

Although why'd you back off at 94? You were pressuring him, and I dont know why you kinda ease off there. Ok, but 97 helps. I dont think scum engineer a svs interaction in the first 4 pages where one accuses the other of misrepping. That doesnt happen much, right?

Was 124 a slip or was that meant to fuck with us when Invis flipped and throw off associationals? Shit if Jake is town, then I dont know wtf is happening. My early thought was Adorable and Jake. But maybe they are just disengaged town. Damnit I'm spiraling.

128, need to check if Alimdia is the first to call out the scumslip. If so, definite townpoints. Oh shit, he was. Now, the only thing that gives me pause is that if I'm scum, I want invisibility to flip before anyone else, because that takes any docs out of play. But do you strategically bus on D1? That i dont think so.

Man, the thing that stopped the Jake/Invis wagon was conf!townies. I thought that might lead me somewhere.

Although Alim voting invis when the pressure is going to Dolly gives him town points.

174 is kinda awkward positioning from Sausa. Voting Dolly while positioning for Invisibility on D2. Do you position to bus your partner after mislynching town as scum?

202 also looking good for Alim. While pressure is building on Dolly he continues to try and redirect to either Jake or Invis away from Dolly.

254 this looks good for Arkias/Adorable. Pressure is building up on Dolly and they go to Invis. Not sure that that's a scum tactic.

Alim defending Arkias at 258 from Joey which runs counter to what hes doing wrt Invis.

273 - Sausa shading Jake while the pressure is still on him. Probably not a team there.

I'm literally spitballing at this point, but one of my games just finished so I can effort this a bit more.

[Billy Pilgrim]

283 - invisibility kinda defending Jake a bit.

At the 310 vote count it looms like this

Invisibility(s): Dolly (t), Alimdia
Jake: Invisibility (s), Kcdaspot (now me)
Dolly Parton(t): Sausasaurusrex
Ethos(t): Arkias (now Adorable)
Arkias (now adorable): Joey (t)
Kcdaspot (now Billy Pilgrim): rb(t)

Not voting: Jake the Wolfie and some dead conf!towns

[Billy Pilgrim]

Correction from the previous VC at post 327:

Jake the Wolfie had Invisibility(s), Kcdaspot(now me), and Eth0s(t) voting him.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Though this is interesting. After having called Invis v Jake svs, Alim is asking whether the Jake wagon is too easy. I think Alim can only be scum if both Invis and Jake are scum. If Jake flips scum I may have to re-evaluate. Because otherwise hes trying to run up his partner for distance when the wagon on town is growing stronger and hes questioning it.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Hmm... but then at 341 votes Jake in response to Dolly prompting him and kinda backs off the invisibility scumread and away from the svs characterization. Simultaneously is asking my slot whether the wagon (presumably on Jake) is too easy.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Adorable or Jake I guess. my tr of Jake was more or less dependent on my sr of your slot and I don’t sr your slot anymore. with that it makes jake the second weakest link. I’m gonna VOTE: adorable though.
I think we shouldn’t have more than one person vote a slot unless we’re, like, sure of it.

This was his first post after clarifying that it was safe to vote. What do we make of that? That could legit be the scumteam.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Not sure what your 258 means.

It means I am damn near sure you're town. I dont think you defend a guy who flips town while attacking a guy that flips scum for something that I think I thought was pretty close to them doing the same thing.

Honestly, the two of us need to find one town. I dont think its Jake. I'm between Sausarex and Adorable at the moment.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Though this is interesting. After having called Invis v Jake svs, Alim is asking whether the Jake wagon is too easy. I think Alim can only be scum if both Invis and Jake are scum. If Jake flips scum I may have to re-evaluate. Because otherwise hes trying to run up his partner for distance when the wagon on town is growing stronger and hes questioning it.

@Billy the SvS thing was explained here via Joey correcting me:

I still got a read on alim

You also didn't explain your read when Invis asked you btw

I'm inclined to think that invis vs jake is actually SvS. That's pretty rare I must say, but it seems like some light bussing gone wrong.

thats a disgusting read and goes against your whole slip thought process and basically whatever you are doing rn still vote there

I have 0 idea what you just said. Can you reword

i have been posting after work so I am tired and it's harder for me to articulate my ideas

The premise of your slip is that inv knew before hand that jake was town, so its a TMI SvsT slip. You can't push the slip wagon while calling both mafia, that was my point

Ah I see what you're saying. That's totally my bad. I guess at that point I caught the slip, got excited that both people in the 'war' were kinda scummy, so I thought that was 2 scum there.

I'll reread more when I get back home (at lunch work atm)

Also.. @Billy you kinda haven't responded to my earlier analysis

I went digging back through the early game on my own. I think theres way too much positive stuff in your iso to think you're scum. If you are, well played, but at this point with a town that stopped playing, I'm fine losing to you, because then my teammates let you deepwolf. I wanna figure out between Adorable and Sausa who the last scum is, because I'm almost positive Jake is at least one of them. And if anyone has objections, please speak up because I think imma throw a vote down.

[Billy Pilgrim]

I read Jake's other games and I dont know if it helped much. Theres a world where both Alim and Jake are both town so maybe I won't vote Jake. Jake, you gonna play or are you just giving up?

[Billy Pilgrim]

So scum doc enabler as an anti swing mechanic makes sense. It's why I suspected Invis. You wouldn't have a scum doc and a scum doc enabler right? Because then it's not an anti swing mechanic. And only one doc claimed. So that means that if theres a scum doc, you wouldnt wanna get that person killed. But if theres a scum doc and a town doc, then the doc enabler is kinda overall balanced and not a huge swing either way. . .

Alim, why would the claimed doc be more likely to be scum in a setup where theres a doc enabler? Wouldnt there have to be a town doc in a setup with a scum doc and scum doc enabler?

BP

[Billy Pilgrim]

No doctor? How is that possible? We have a flipped doc enabler. What in the fuck would that be there for if there isnt a doc? Fuck is your paranoia faked just to get suspicion on everyone?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I've seen games with a backup tracker but no tracker, so having a doc enabler with no doctor is 'normal'

You've seen mini normal like that?

[Billy Pilgrim]

I've seen games with a backup tracker but no tracker, so having a doc enabler with no doctor is 'normal'

Ok, now I see what you meant in Micro 900. It seems like that was also done deliberately to spread some disinformation. So you could be right. Damnit, I've got like nothing in this game and it's just me and you playing, with maybe a pip from Sausa every once in a while. Who you want to lynch? I'm gonna sheep you and we'll either win or lose, but this game died a while ago. I think I prefer Jake, but I'll trust you.

I see why you dont trust me. My slot was behaving weirdly toward Invis, and I discounted the slip. I won't do that again, I just dont normally do much on slips. Last time I thought I saw one the person was a mason, so I haven't really put alot of weight on them in the past.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Eh, I'll commit to my read. I dont remember Jake staying off the lynches when he was town.

VOTE: Jake

If this is a loss, sorry.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Yeah. That's a lynch, and I bet it's SausaurusRex and Alimdia
Well played. Town kinda gave this game away. Sorry I blew this. But given that response I think scum deserves to win. Town wasnt trying.

[Billy Pilgrim]

Dang Billy why did you stop halfway. It was a really good read!

What was really good about my read? I basically had you locktowned because of apathy. Also my pseudo-clear on Adorable kinda killed me.

[Billy Pilgrim]

most of the kills were to cripple town activity

It was successful. I pretty much gave up at the end since town wasnt really interacting with me. Hell D3 was literally me talking to scum all day.