Newbie 1979 | Good Jams | (Game Over)

[insomnia]

Or actually give me a sec, I’ll properly evaluate people.

[IMASPY]

He’s actually gonna get locked if dawoodle flips scum so I don’t want to focus that

I think your attention should be on the two wagons. Dawoodle has done nothing but ask me questions, his town read, and didn’t sort any of the other people.

Town look for scum, not town.

If he says otherwise, refer back to his wall where he gave the equivalent of 3 scum reads in proportion to 2 town reads.

Well if town look for scum, not town wouldnt that put dawoodle more on the town side considering he gave 3 scum reads opposed to 2 town reads.
Also dawoodle has not only asked you questions. He ask me questions and he addressed billy in an individual post not connected to you at all.
He has reacted alot to you, but i forgive that since you tunneled so hard in the first 100 post.

[IMASPY]

I refuse to hop on the 2 bandwagons that started under 100 post without more reasons are given. Both Mafia scum and dsjstr hopped on your bandwagon with no quotes or reasons why they voted them aside from pushing activity.

[insomnia]

Billy why are you town reading dawoodle again?

Where did I say I was town-reading Dawoodle?

I missed this answer and I was looking for it.

You kept asking people why we are scum reading dawoodle and you didn't actually care for the answer. You're either defending him or looking for an opportunity to push him. Either way, asking about why someone votes for X player implies that you don't find a reason to vote there. So, what's the reasoning? Why is he town?

[insomnia]

Billy are scum

Expound?

[insomnia]

Ok, I read your post, so no need to do that anymore.

I am willing to re-evaluate on dawoodle, let him live for another day. I do intend to move to either Billy or djstr now, surprisingly.

I still think that dawoodle's pretty scum, virtue of that terrible wall and his questions that aren't being followed through. This guy either has to start speaking more in the thread or he's gonna get lynched at some point, be it either by me or the town. Unless djstr is scum which would make dawoodle look really townie.

Dawoodle is no rookie, as he mentioned, he does have some IRL experience. I guess I liked his #174 and that was the pivotal moment for my switch in read, followed by ima's thought process. But, I do still have some form of reluctance from switching, maybe because it sucks being wrong, but also because his questions match NOTHING with his reads. He can ask the weirdest questions to iam and billy, and then post reasons for why he scum reads Luca (this was just an example). From my personal PoV (because I've caught people before based on this tell alone, which is not really a tell, but whatever), scum that are disengaged (that was when I pushed dawoodle and he sat at 3 votes for a long time) they still ask questions, but then their reads don't follow up on those questions. I can take the excerpt from that game to prove my point, as I can't really explain it properly in here, but hope you got the point. Using TMI, he can give easy reads on other people, but it's not about the reads he's making, it's about the questions he asks that DON'T match his reads at all. Which is a sign of TMI. You can't possible post one thing in the thread, probe into specific people (because you most likely scum read them) and then give reads that are good on other people. Which tells me that he probably wasn't focused on his questions at all and followed the thread state more clearly in his head to see where he can push easily. I can make a comparison by quoting his posts and his conclusions that have nothing to do with each other, which I most likely will.

I made a step by step analysis in my notes that I can provide, but I think that it's just junk level as it was not really made to be posted, more of thought dumping.

[insomnia]

I think we probably have all scum but 1 targeted right now..i am not quite sure how many scum is in this damn town.

Ima, can you explain your thought process here? I can think of a few explanations, but would like to hear yours.

Billy, how confident are you that the metas do not/have not changed from the games that you looked at?

Ima, #107, do you feel like you got any informative reactions from it?

djstr and luca aren't team mates.

Why?

Bumping this because it is a fair question considering that Luca had posted twice at this point.

What about that post indicates that they're not partners though?

So who are the scum for you, dawoodle?

I think at least one of Blatant and Billy are scum. Dsjstr is suspect, and Luca is null but leaning scum. I can go into my reasoning if anyone is interested.

The interaction around Billy's vote for Blatant was strange. The evolution of explanation for Billy's vote was suspect. On the other hand, since the first day, most of Blatant's posts have either been defensive or just general process. I have not seen what I would consider scum hunting from him and the aggressive push against Billy's vote is one piece of that.

For dsjstr, he put a vote on me to "get some activity" (#77) and in the day since, his only activity has been confirming that it was an L-2 vote (#79) and justifying his lack of posts by saying it was comparable to Ima's number of posts (#122). If he actually wanted some activity, I would expect him to post.

For luca, his lack of activity concerns me. As Billy pointed out, he was supposedly catching up in "a few hours" a day ago, and has been silent ever since. If he starts posting and interacting, I will reevaluate based on his behavior.

Most of these reads are made under the assumption that I am a villager. As a townie, the wolves should be happy that suspicion is on me and would avoid scumhunting for the easy mislynch. Regardless of whether I am town or not though, villagers should still be looking for the second scum which seems to be lacking.

Get my point? This guy had no read on Billy, asked him something about meta, then decided to make a read on him. Look at those questions and what he gets at with them.

Or rather, look at what's NOT there. Where's the conclusion he got from his questions? It's almost as if it's an entirely new approach and his questions weren't even there.

Questions are asked in order to SORT people. None of the questions dawoodle asked could have possibly lead him to those reads in the wall. Read the questions. That's literally every single question he asked up to that wall.

Scum have to fake trying to sort, and hence, they have to look like they are trying to solve. Key difference here.

Look like

they're trying to solve. How do you pretend trying to solve? By asking questions.

His questions don't lead to that read on Billy, therefore, they had no value in sorting anyone. Therefore, he has TMI, therefore, he's scum. You get the point.

Yeah, so actually, no, I'm not willing to re-evaluate. There's no way someone says "most of these reads are made under the assumption i am a villager. regardless of whether i am town or not..."

Seriously? A town would literally explode. This is way too reasonable to be town. Like, yeah, I get his points, but there's no way he's this objective and calm as a villager. He's not even voting anyone / pushing his reads. He's like "yeah so 1 scum in blatant / billy is where I'm at", good, push your reads.

I'm sorry but I just can't move my vote. I honestly think this is scum, scratch my previous post, I've seen this wall again and it's still bad.

His Billy read is saying "He's scum because...But actually he does have a point on Blatant, so I'll keep my vote on Blatant" ??????????

keep it simple, lynch dawoodle, if he flips scum then lynch billy. Occam's razor. Keep it simple.

if he's not scum, look into djstrs next.

[insomnia]

And, by the way, me making a read before the 100 post mark doesn't change it's accuracy in any way. You don't need tons of information to find scum. Actually, it was demonstrated that you get more confused when presented with tons of information, rather than with a low amount of information. It helps you keep a clear head.

Scum lynches do exist on day one, town lynches are more likely on day one. But scum lynches also do exist.

Ima and literally everyone that's not voting dawoodle, what reasons do you actually have for defending dawoodle here? Anything deep / nuanced? If you call it a tunnel, prove me wrong and try to work with me. If the only reason you have for not voting him is "insomnia's read was made too early, no way it's scum" then lol you. Not even considering this option as a scum is faulty. Please let me know your concerns about my read, I think it's quite good.

Also, the inconsistency in dawoodle's reactions is also glaring. Remember when I first called him out on his first wall? Read his reaction there and his reaction in this wall and see the difference. He's calming himself down and is trying not to flail. It's just not town consistency.

Again, if your reason for not voting dawoodle is because it was a post-whatever-under-100-read then you're not having an actual town read, you're just doubting my capabilities. If you're doubting them, then read him for yourself and debate with me. Why is he town???

[insomnia]

You're literally saying "It was a day one read so it's bound to be wrong", ok, prove me wrong. Work with me. Show me where you think I'm wrong. I'm not a tunneler, but the evidence is so compelling to me that I can't really change my view on it. Nothing else is as scummy as dawoodle. Honestly.

I actually came in with quite a clear head and was really opened, so my initial read was not even a tunnel, despite what you choose to believe. I was actually willing to listen to him. I wasn't actively looking for scum, it just happened I skimmed his post and went "Oh, this is looking really bad". I explained it, what do you disagree with?

Now, perhaps, it is quite a tunnel, but I think it's for the right reasons.

[insomnia]

Well if town look for scum, not town wouldnt that put dawoodle more on the town side considering he gave 3 scum reads opposed to 2 town reads.

Ok, I misspoke there. What I meant was that, town look for scum, as in they probe their scum reads, as opposed to looking to validate their town read on someone. You don't come back to your most confident town read. You have nothing to sort there. Dawoodle would just keep coming back at me with questions for no reasons, what's he looking to achieve, he already has a scum read on me?

This point is in connection with the "asking questions" point thing I made in the massive wall. He's not even ACTUALLY looking for scum which is even worse. Hope you understood what I meant now.

[IMASPY]

And, by the way, me making a read before the 100 post mark doesn't change it's accuracy in any way. You don't need tons of information to find scum. Actually, it was demonstrated that you get more confused when presented with tons of information, rather than with a low amount of information. It helps you keep a clear head.

Scum lynches do exist on day one, town lynches are more likely on day one. But scum lynches also do exist.

Ima and literally everyone that's not voting dawoodle, what reasons do you actually have for defending dawoodle here? Anything deep / nuanced? If you call it a tunnel, prove me wrong and try to work with me. If the only reason you have for not voting him is "insomnia's read was made too early, no way it's scum" then lol you. Not even considering this option as a scum is faulty. Please let me know your concerns about my read, I think it's quite good.

Also, the inconsistency in dawoodle's reactions is also glaring. Remember when I first called him out on his first wall? Read his reaction there and his reaction in this wall and see the difference. He's calming himself down and is trying not to flail. It's just not town consistency.

Again, if your reason for not voting dawoodle is because it was a post-whatever-under-100-read then you're not having an actual town read, you're just doubting my capabilities. If you're doubting them, then read him for yourself and debate with me. Why is he town???

Im not clearing dawoodle as town. Infact i gave a list of my sus list and stated i see him as more sus than you. However, i havent see anything from him that has made me think he is scum totally.

He asked me a question on post #87 and after i answered that he gave me a follow up question in post #149. I am in no way saying that makes him town but you are giving him less credit for his post than i am.

[IMASPY]

I will admit I am struggling to get reads right now so I would not be productive for the town.

So stop asking.

If you are telling me to stop asking you to have some responsibility as town by trying to find mafia then id rather vote you out. Either you are a town that will not contribute or you are mafia trying to avoid making enemies of too many town.

Well if town look for scum, not town wouldnt that put dawoodle more on the town side considering he gave 3 scum reads opposed to 2 town reads.

Ok, I misspoke there. What I meant was that, town look for scum, as in they probe their scum reads, as opposed to looking to validate their town read on someone. You don't come back to your most confident town read. You have nothing to sort there. Dawoodle would just keep coming back at me with questions for no reasons, what's he looking to achieve, he already has a scum read on me?

This point is in connection with the "asking questions" point thing I made in the massive wall. He's not even ACTUALLY looking for scum which is even worse. Hope you understood what I meant now.

If you ask me dsjstr has done far far less in

actually]/b] looking for scum. I do know what you mean by that last sentence because i just made that case against dsjstr.

[insomnia]

And, by the way, me making a read before the 100 post mark doesn't change it's accuracy in any way. You don't need tons of information to find scum. Actually, it was demonstrated that you get more confused when presented with tons of information, rather than with a low amount of information. It helps you keep a clear head.

Scum lynches do exist on day one, town lynches are more likely on day one. But scum lynches also do exist.

Ima and literally everyone that's not voting dawoodle, what reasons do you actually have for defending dawoodle here? Anything deep / nuanced? If you call it a tunnel, prove me wrong and try to work with me. If the only reason you have for not voting him is "insomnia's read was made too early, no way it's scum" then lol you. Not even considering this option as a scum is faulty. Please let me know your concerns about my read, I think it's quite good.

Also, the inconsistency in dawoodle's reactions is also glaring. Remember when I first called him out on his first wall? Read his reaction there and his reaction in this wall and see the difference. He's calming himself down and is trying not to flail. It's just not town consistency.

Again, if your reason for not voting dawoodle is because it was a post-whatever-under-100-read then you're not having an actual town read, you're just doubting my capabilities. If you're doubting them, then read him for yourself and debate with me. Why is he town???

Im not clearing dawoodle as town. Infact i gave a list of my sus list and stated i see him as more sus than you. However, i havent see anything from him that has made me think he is scum totally.

He asked me a question on post #87 and after i answered that he gave me a follow up question in post #149. I am in no way saying that makes him town but you are giving him less credit for his post than i am.

Did he share with us his results from probing you?

>If yes, it's goodie
>If not, he wasn't actually probing you / has no intent of sorting you. Well, if you ask me, the reason would be that he doesn't want to clear in the mislynch pool, especially if I'm right on him and Billy.

If he doesn't have results from probing you, he was not sorting you. Simple.

And I read his probing into you and the two questions don't really have a connection with each other, he lacks following through.

Asking questions =/= sorting someone.

[insomnia]

You voted for me because I voted for dawoodle

Btw, spy, thoughts on this specific post?

I will say I town read it, I'll wait for your answer though.

[IMASPY]

You are fundamentally wrong if you think i am calling you scum just for voting dawoodle. This is now the third time im gonna ask you

WHY YOU

think dawoodle is scum. I havent seen any real reasons that i agree with. Can you maybe quote a reason you think i would be convinced by or maybe even just type up a couple loose reasons

why you

think he is mafia.

I posted a response to it 12 post later.

Dsjstr response to this post was quoting 4 post from you. And used those 4 post to justify his and scums vote on dawoodle. Two post were done after Blatent Scum voted for activity. One post was done after dsjstr voted dawoodle for activity.

However 100 post later dsjstr uses these 4 post to claim those are the reasons for believing dawoodle is mafia.
If that is the case why didnt dsjstr use one of those post as a reason for voting dawoodle at the time?
Probably because i pushed him for reasons and since you are the only one 100% convinced dawoodle is mafia you are the only person he can quote with scum reads on dawoodle.

[insomnia]

That’s not the answer I was looking for, but here’s why I town read it.

What scum, knowing that he’s voting a town, would ever use that excuse in order to call someone else out?

It proves two things, one, he actually believes that dawoodle is scum, even if it’s based on my reasoning

And two, he doesn’t have TMI on dawoodle.

[IMASPY]

dsjstr and BS have both joined your BW without providing or contributing to your case.

[insomnia]

The only thing I didn’t like about djstr is that he said he doesn’t trust SE’s but he’s following the lead of an SE right now, as well as his reasoning. But he did mention he town reads me, despite knowing I’m an SE.

I just want to lynch dawoodle, I really think he flips scum here. If he does, it clears dsjstr, a potential mislynch bait. If he doesn’t flip, then I’m considering djstr tomorrow and will follow you.

[insomnia]

dsjstr and BS have both joined your BW without providing or contributing to your case.

Scum are more likely to provide a reason for joining a wagon anyway from my experience

So it’s a good thing

[IMASPY]

That’s not the answer I was looking for, but here’s why I town read it.

What scum, knowing that he’s voting a town, would ever use that excuse in order to call someone else out?

It proves two things, one, he actually believes that dawoodle is scum, even if it’s based on my reasoning

And two, he doesn’t have TMI on dawoodle.

Man its pretty dangerous claiming proof of someones inner thoughts with something so flimsy.

Its weird to me now that you are trying to clear dsjstr to me as town after your whole town reads scum, not town post.

[insomnia]

I already explained that I expressed it wrongly. I don’t actually believe that lol.

It’s actually easier to find town rather than scum. Villagers should almost always villager hunt.

I had more success hunting town and leaving wolves in a PoE than doing what I’m doing right now

[IMASPY]

So dsjstr i will give you one more chance to defend yourself. Why are you still voting for dawoodle after you voted him to get information out of him? What has dawoodle done or said to convince you he is mafia?

Who are you to be the judge, jury, and executioner? I’m sorry that I don’t have all of the relevant quotes, but you asked dsjstr to defend himself, and then after he does, you decide it isn’t sufficient so you revote. Why would you unvote if you only planned on putting your vote back into dsjstr? I know that you could easily say “I wouldn’t have put my vote back I liked his defense” but that clearly isn’t the case based on this quote. Your vote isn’t worth more than any of the other players, and I’m sure that you didn’t need to unvote to make your point. You really just wanted to leverage your voting power, which as I stated doesn’t account for much.

\

I am all three in this game.... that is exactly what this game is... all townies are all three of those things. I have already replied to this post, but I was looking through poyzins post and i forgot to make this point the first time.

[eth0s]

Replacing Billy Pilgrim.

[dawoodle]

I should clarify that when I say "since the first day," I mean everything after the first day, not every single one of Blatant's posts.

Im assuming you are just misspeaking because this is still the first day.

Not really. I meant the first irl day, not the first game day.

[dawoodle]

Spoiler:

The interaction around Billy's vote for Blatant was strange. The evolution of explanation for Billy's vote was suspect. On the other hand, since the first day, most of Blatant's posts have either been defensive or just general process. I have not seen what I would consider scum hunting from him and the aggressive push against Billy's vote is one piece of that.

For dsjstr, he put a vote on me to "get some activity" (#77) and in the day since, his only activity has been confirming that it was an L-2 vote (#79) and justifying his lack of posts by saying it was comparable to Ima's number of posts (#122). If he actually wanted some activity, I would expect him to post.

For luca, his lack of activity concerns me. As Billy pointed out, he was supposedly catching up in "a few hours" a day ago, and has been silent ever since. If he starts posting and interacting, I will reevaluate based on his behavior.

Most of these reads are made under the assumption that I am a villager. As a townie, the wolves should be happy that suspicion is on me and would avoid scumhunting for the easy mislynch. Regardless of whether I am town or not though, villagers should still be looking for the second scum which seems to be lacking.

It was to get other people to be active, getting someone closer to a lynch allows for the game to progress and for knowledge and information to be shared.[/quote]
I understood that and agree that the vote itself was not scummy. However, posting and probing are another way to get people active, and the lack of anything since the vote is what I was pointing out. I need to catch up on all of the discussion, but I like the fact that some discussions have started.
Perhaps I will get to it later, but is there a reason that you did not probe more after you voted for me?