Newbie 1979 | Good Jams | (Game Over)

[dawoodle]

Aggressive might have been too strong of a word. But 86 is specifically what I was referencing. It feels like an over the top denial when, as I said in #156, he has two previous games that I could find where he started (and was not a sub) and only the second one (when he was scum) used that opening.

[dawoodle]

Also, by virtue of dawoodle being under the gun here and him posting only to defend himself without actually providing too much content on the actual game, my honest opinion is that he has to be lynched at some point regardless. Even if it's not today.

But from my PoV, other people are much townier than him so I still see him as scum. His lynch really makes me focus on the right stuff. He's the flip that can change the flow of the game.

I'm not sure what you consider providing content to the actual game, but I feel like I am at least trying and sparking conversations. At this point, I think your mind is made up about me. I will be the likely lynch tonight, and I am just trying to provide as much information to help the town after my death as I can. As such, I think you should look at how posting behavior changed after I posted my scum list and my justification for it. I feel like you will be more open to viewing it as useful 1) if you spot it for yourself and 2) after I flip green. I do plan on posting my opinions of the behavior if I have time during twilight.

[insomnia]

Despite me actively advocating for your lynch, I doubt that you'll actually be the lynch tbh.

I didn't mean to undermine your posting, I specifically meant solving. You are posting game related content. It's just that, because I am constantly on you, your views might be skewed anyway and you're forced to defend yourself more than scum hunting. I'm sorry if you took offence there.

I do think other people are way townier than you are and your lynch here can shift the game in the right direction, at least for me. It's just like you said, you're also limited to scum reading a few people, and those reads are because someone's not reacting to a claimed RVS vote and the other is someone that I also scum read. Meaning the Billy slot.

It seems to me that you're reluctant to voting Billy. You scum read Billy's progression more than you scum read Blatant, or at least that's what your posting implies to me, but you're not voting there.

If I had compelling evidence to chase another lead I would've done so, but everyone is really townie in my eyes. I'm sorry if you're town and I tunneled you and ruined your experience. I know how it can be to be at the receiving end of a tunnel, which is why I still gave you *some* room to breathe, but you've not done anything with it that screams town.

[insomnia]

I just really am that confident on my read on you. It's a combination of scum hunting but the bright contrast between you and other people, where they are a lot townier than you, so it's a combination of the two fundamental things.

If I were to give you another chance, you'd have to vote with me on Billy. But otherwise, I'll keep on advocating for you lynch.

[dawoodle]

First, I am enjoying this game. And the fact that it's a game is part of the reason I am generally calm in my responses. Honestly, I'm not exactly sure how town is supposed to be, but I think I am gaining some valuable insights from being painted as scum so early.

I still think Billy is scum, and once a replacement is found, I will likely put my vote on them. However, I do not feel comfortable voting for someone who is out on replacement. (I realize this is slightly hypocritical with my vote for Blatant and his lack of activity, but my vote was placed during RVS before he disappeared. I will reevaluate that if he is sent out for replacement too or if enough other people pile on that I think there might be an early lynch.) Having said that, I think that my observations and opinions will be taken more seriously when I flip green because townieness is linchpin of my argument and I don't know how to demonstrate that without dying.

[insomnia]

Towniness is less thinking about what you post and just react on things.

Scum are methodical in their approach, they can't fake emotions. They think it's for dummies. Emotions are what distinguish town from scum most of the time.

You're just...WAYYYY too reasonable for a town here. I know this is getting old, but if I were a town here, I would've done everything to avoid my lynch. You're just sitting at 3 votes, not moving your vote, not actively getting people to vote your scum reads and on top of that, you just don't care for getting lynched, which is almost never townie.

You just are way too methodical. You need to let your emotions get the better of you in the thread. For example, if you see a post that really makes you ask yourself questions, react to it, be like "Why in the actual heck (pg friendly) did you even post this? What's the point of this?"

You often asked me "Aren't you agreeing with me?". I do, and that's the thing. You make way too much sense and are way too reasonable for me to think you're town. You're way too objective. It's like you're calculating every move, which is inherently scummy. Townies react more, scum are calculating in their minds more. Hope it makes sense and you take something out of this.

[insomnia]

Otoh, if you're a town here, if you can develop good scum hunting abilities, this will almost always help you and you'll have a huge advantage over the others. But I just don't think someone can possibly be as non-reactive as you are right now.

[insomnia]

Let's suppose I don't scum read you here and I want to work with you. Why should I vote Blatant? Convince me.

Tell me your town reads and your reasons for town reading them. Why did you come to the conclusion of "Exactly one in between BS and Billy"? Why is Billy a weaker scum lean than BS?

Thoughts on Poyzin? He posted a few times but I don't think you ever said anything about him

[dawoodle]

That makes sense and I will work on incorporating it in the future. Having said that, I'm going to do the scummy thing and not change my play style here because then I look scummy for trying to act like I was told to. I'm afraid that sounds too logical, but I'm doing it anyway.

Having said that, I'm still waiting on one or two pieces of evidence to make my case stronger. When I get that, I'll post who I think scum are before EoD instead of after the vote like I said.

[dawoodle]

What the heck do you mean "exactly" one?
I'm sticking with my previous post and not changing, although I might try to joke more. We both know that I said "at least one of", and that I just said that I'm not voting Billy because he's out for sub. Now, I'm going to do the opposite of what you ask and give you a reason to vote Billy over Blatant. You already think he leans scum based on his opening. You also recognized that he was trying to sell us as a pair with his initial posting. Why would anybody come in and hitch their wagon to the top scum read? I couldn't find the evidence that I wanted until I went back and re-read his posts. I think the answer lies in one of his responses to you:

Spoiler:

Because you not engaging with me here when I flip town makes me useless in sorting

what

Ok, let's say you get your Dawoodle flip, what happens if that flips town? Do you push me still?

He was trying to set the stage for us to be a pair so that when I flipped town, he looked better by comparison because he was defending me. At the time of my scum list, I wasn't sure if Billy was busing his partner or not so that he looked good no matter the outcome if the wagons didn't change. At this point, I don't think that is likely, and he just set up the town v town counterwagons that you accused me of planning with my poorly advised initial read.

[insomnia]

See, this is some townie shit and good reads and thoughts. This is what I'm looking for.

I am willing to vote Billy man, I don't give a damn if he subbed out, that slot is cursed, like 3 people changed it. Let's give the mod an easy time and stop looking for replacement. Put that slot in the grave.

VOTE: Billy slot

[insomnia]

If you keep posting like this and asking good questions as well, I might not even push you tomorrow.

[IMASPY]

these jams got me thinking im ready to hammer now... am i right guys? I think we probably have all scum but 1 targeted right now..i am not quite sure how many scum is in this damn town.

Oh god this is scary. Please dont hammer already. We've got no information yet. Noting this post because I wanna check who was L-1 at the moment.

This post and the post he asked enchantress about lylo were the two post that made me feel he was town. His first post didnt give me much information because he was using meta data for most of them.

[dawoodle]

As for Poyzin, I would appreciate a little more pressing from him, but other than his slightly forced opening (again hypocritical on my part when all my stuff looks forced ), I think he is trying to contribute and had asked some good questions. I like that he was hesitant to put us to L-1 before hearing from everyone. And he called out what he thought was scummy behavior.

[dawoodle]

I'm going to wait until at least this evening to vote him. I'm still not comfortable voting someone who's not here.

[insomnia]

But your vote is on BS tho.

[dawoodle]

Yes? I already said I would take it off if it looked like things were getting too close to a lynch.

[Poyzin]

Luca has gained the most townie rep from me since that post but we was second from the bottom so it wasnt hard for him to move up in my rankings.

Actually, it WOULD be hard for Luca to gain the most townie points. Luca was your second highest scumread at the time you originally posted that list, so it would seem that you had some conviction to put him there. This is clear when you talk about your confidence in your dsjstr scumread, which has been unwavering to put it in different words. You even say that it is easy for players near the bottom to move up, yet that doesn't seem to be the case for dsjstr, who you are committed to lynching. To finish the thought, it would be easiest for null reads to shift around, as you wouldn't have much conviction about their placement.

Once again, I'm just postulating, but I'm pretty sure Luca moved up only because you agreed on dsjstr "definitely" being scum. While I agree that this is a good possibility, as I do heavily sus dsjstr, I am even more suspicious of you because of your use of underhanded tactics to push the scum!Dsjstr envelope that I have previously described. I have high confidence that at least one of the two of you are scum. If you are scum, I'd say dsjstr is cleared. (And vice versa for that matter, because I can't picture any scenario where the two of you are mafioso based on both of your demonstrated convictions throughout the last few pages).

VOTE: IMASPY

Don't say that I'm defending dsjstr; I'm not. I'm just trying to find flaws in the argument for dsjstr. There is a large difference, as the former implies that he's a townread for me; he's not.

What you left out of this quote.
"Poyzin has gone lower on my list since this post, however, at the time nor he, luca, or blatant scum had posted enough townie content for me to even consider them as town."

you luca and BS were in three way tie for 2nd to last as i said in that very same post you just clipped from. When three people are tied and two of those 3 people have the least post i would say the person that posted the most out of the three has the best chance to gain townie points. Along with the best chance to let off a scum read. just so happens i read luca as a town.

I don’t need to quote the whole post. Still, you should be more confident about your read of people who had posted more, such as Luca, compared to somebody who has not been making many posts, such as myself. Therefore, Luca would have the hardest time getting out of his position, which is why it’s suspicious when you paint the opposite picture once you decide that you want to lynch dsjstr. You may have felt that reading your mislynch partner as scum would hinder your ability to mislynch dsjstr. So, you decide to townread Luca so that the two of you could feel better about your decision on dsjstr, which was your goal the whole time. Of course this scenario depends solely on dsjstr being town, which I’m still not confident in. If dsjstr is indeed scum, then I’ll admit my defeat and say that you probably are town. However, I’m feeling worse about your slot than I do about dsjstr’s slot, for the reasons that I previously stated that I believe you are trying to undermine town’s attempts at coming to an appropriate solution by deliberately misinterpreting dsjstr’s messages; when they tried to provide themselves with a defense, it wasn’t good enough and your vote remained for one. I read your reasoning for inviting, but the unvote and the revote occurred in such a tight time interval that I don’t even think you considered both mafioso swinging in and hammering, which would absolutely be the scummiest move to make and would not be ignored.

[Poyzin]

reasoning for inviting

On mobile; this autocorrected from unvoting.

[insomnia]

Poyzin, while you're here, thoughts on Billy and Dawoodle? What about Blatant?

[Poyzin]

Poyzin, while you're here, thoughts on Billy and Dawoodle? What about Blatant?

I believe that Billy is probably town. I think they had good townie posts when they initially arrived in the thread. However, this is not a passionate lynch, as I have not looked into a case for them as much as I have for my scumleans. Overall, I’m of the mindset that Billy is null-town.

You had interesting points on dawoodle early in the game; however, I’ve been liking dawoodle’s recent content more and more and can’t say for sure that I think he’s scum. Because of this, dawoodle is basically middle-null for me. While I don’t agree with their scum reads, this does not deter my opinion of that slot.

For Blatant Scum, I’m afraid I can’t say much beyond a null read for them. I’m not sure why Billy is being replaced and not Blatant; there literally isn’t enough for me to comment on. Nothing that they have said is particularly scummy, but there is no real reason to believe that they are town. It’s hard for lurkers such as Blatant to be read as town, but they aren’t necessarily scum for doing so.

[insomnia]

Yeah, I like your take on BS. Can you quote some posts that you feel like made you say "wow, dawoodle is really town for this" and your thought process behind reaching that conclusion, please?

[insomnia]

I actually really want to lynch Dawoodle because it's a puzzle piece that is messing up my other reads, but everyone is so reluctant to voting him. I just want to hear all of them out and hopefully get them to change their opinion. I don't think anything he's done is particularly townie.

Even his most recent post, although I really like it, why didn't he feel like pushing Billy over that theory instead of sitting on an afk slot? That's why I thought it was a bus and I'm still buying it. He still doesn't vote him. Why?

He has no issue sitting on an afk slot, but a replacement slot?

I am fine with any of them two getting lynched, but I'd much rather prefer dawoodle because it changes my perception on a lot of things. I think you're town, although a lot of your reads are different than mine. I think spy is the towniest out of everyone, Luca's also sitting there somewhere. Would you like to vote dawoodle with me, or are his posts making you feel like "Damn, I just can't lynch this!". If so, why? What has he said that turns you away from voting him?

That question is available for everyone that is kind of ignoring dawoodle here.

[Poyzin]

Nothing that they have said is particularly scummy, but there is no real reason to believe that they are town. It’s hard for lurkers such as Blatant to be read as town, but they aren’t necessarily scum for doing so.

I may have repeated myself here, but I wanted to explicitly state that BS is lurking; I don’t agree with those antics, but there isn’t anything that can be done about it as far as I am aware.

Before I continue, I wanted to address this quote of yours because it is fundamental to my argument.

Towniness is less thinking about what you post and just react on things.

Scum are methodical in their approach, they can't fake emotions. They think it's for dummies. Emotions are what distinguish town from scum most of the time.

You're just...WAYYYY too reasonable for a town here. I know this is getting old, but if I were a town here, I would've done everything to avoid my lynch. You're just sitting at 3 votes, not moving your vote, not actively getting people to vote your scum reads and on top of that, you just don't care for getting lynched, which is almost never townie.

You just are way too methodical. You need to let your emotions get the better of you in the thread. For example, if you see a post that really makes you ask yourself questions, react to it, be like "Why in the actual heck (pg friendly) did you even post this? What's the point of this?"

You often asked me "Aren't you agreeing with me?". I do, and that's the thing. You make way too much sense and are way too reasonable for me to think you're town. You're way too objective. It's like you're calculating every move, which is inherently scummy. Townies react more, scum are calculating in their minds more. Hope it makes sense and you take something out of this.

I’m not a fan of your take of “You need to let your emotions get the better of you in the thread.” While tone certainly makes it easier to read somebody as town, I don’t think this is good advice. In my opinion, logic IS good. The thing about the mafia is that, because they are the mafia, there MUST be something fundamentally wrong with their argument. While townies may have incorrect logic sometimes, the mafia must be wrong ALL the time (unless they are bussing). With that being said, letting your emotions take control can be potentially dangerous. People who tunnel on somebody have let their emotions take control of them. I would rather have somebody talk sense into them then remain in their emotional state. So while you do have a point that scum tend to be more methodical than town, logical townies are more beneficial for me than emotional townies. In addendum, methodical townies aren’t necessarily bad either; their just harder to discern from scum, which makes the game more challenging, while the methodical townies are still helping town.

Now, with the posts.

First, I am enjoying this game. And the fact that it's a game is part of the reason I am generally calm in my responses. Honestly, I'm not exactly sure how town is supposed to be, but I think I am gaining some valuable insights from being painted as scum so early.

I still think Billy is scum, and once a replacement is found, I will likely put my vote on them. However, I do not feel comfortable voting for someone who is out on replacement. (I realize this is slightly hypocritical with my vote for Blatant and his lack of activity, but my vote was placed during RVS before he disappeared. I will reevaluate that if he is sent out for replacement too or if enough other people pile on that I think there might be an early lynch.) Having said that, I think that my observations and opinions will be taken more seriously when I flip green because townieness is linchpin of my argument and I don't know how to demonstrate that without dying.

Dawoodle is right about many things here; for one, voting for Billy while a replacement being searched for is really not a smart decision. Dawoodle also realizes the hypocrisy of their vote on BS, who has not been posting for an even longer period of time. Scum would not acknowledge their own behavior that could be seen as scummy; on the contrary, dawoodle makes their voting contradiction available for everyone to see.

That makes sense and I will work on incorporating it in the future. Having said that, I'm going to do the scummy thing and not change my play style here because then I look scummy for trying to act like I was told to. I'm afraid that sounds too logical, but I'm doing it anyway.

Having said that, I'm still waiting on one or two pieces of evidence to make my case stronger. When I get that, I'll post who I think scum are before EoD instead of after the vote like I said.

I am perfectly fine with dawoodle sticking with his natural play style. It also demonstrates his ability to not be influenced by other players, even if they are generally regarded as town.

[dsjstr]

Earlier I said I've been struggling to find reads, I'm starting to question if that is because we are killing ourselves(town) while mafia is just lurking. I am hesitant to change votes because it would make me seem like I am following Insomnia again and tbh I am not exactly sure what the VC is while I'm typing this. I will look through and count it for myself I can post my results but I myself am fine with sending someone to L-1 after the replacements join. They could just join and lynch someone and claim that they didn't realize they were at L-1, but once they know the VC I plan on sending someone to L-1. That also goes for everyone else, if you see this as being scummy then send me to L-1.

UNVOTE: