Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

[Chemist1422]

This........is enlightening. This has not been even remotely helpful in figuring out Chemist's alignment, but this is a man dedicated to signing up for games and posting <100 words for their entirety, a patron saint of the Laconic tradition, absolutely dedicated to winning games with the least amount of effort and words possible.

This is by far the most effort he has put into any mafia game ever, I apologize for any previous complaints, godspeed.

Weird.

Chemist was the last game we played together an outlier???

What game was that

The game where you hammered the scum that most people thought was town??

I don’t remember being that active in that game actually

[Replica]

Scumreading you for what I think is poor scum execution as opposed to...scumreading you for good scum execution?

The fact you actually got offended over that is hilarious, and as town being accused of poor scumplay in this game, in this moment, shouldn't have bothered you whatsoever.

[Nachomamma8]

@Farkran:

I'm not calling you townreading you for how bad you are at being town. I think that you are wrong, but as I've said before I don't think that you are bad.

I also called you a bad listener but that's actually a shitty thing for me to say; didn't realize that English wasn't your first language until I did some browsing on your meta and so instead of being an obstinante jackass I will make a more measured attempt to clarify myself in the future.

[Nachomamma8]

I think that you are town because your progressions (how your reads on players change as the game goes on) are extraordinarily deep and I think that the path you are taking now with regards to your scumreads (Replica, Chara, Hectic) are people who are either very strongly townread (Hectic) or are strong players who would be daunting for scum to go against. I don't think any of those pushes are likely to gain traction based on the way they carry themselves and the number of people townreading them. I don't think that scum tend to put in effort unless it feeds an agenda and I don't believe you'd push that group if you simply wanted to look town. As a result, I believe you are either arrogant scum (looking for a challenge), or town who believes that they have something.

[Farkran]

Why? Serious question. Why do you now townread hectic based on a poorly assembled meta case of his first game on site and a 40p multiball theme?

Why do you townread Nacho enough to sheep him while doing a complete 180° of your previous read?

I don’t think nachos case on Hectic is S/S. I think, independently of that, that nacho is likely town.

The meta case on Hectic doesn’t seem like a bad one, at all, and I’m willing to BoP nacho. If I’m confident in his ability to townread and confident that he’s not pushing a spare through on a buddy, why not trust his spare read?

Also: I’m not reversing a read, but changing a sheep. I always thought your hectic case was more more :eyebrows: for Chara than hec, tbh.

I wouldn't BoP anyone ever, but that's just me. Also i don't know Nacho.

I can't push Hectic/Nacho with such confidence as i was pushing Hectic/Chara (this solve also takes a hurt from Nacho being so confident in Hectic town, though), but i still think a Hectic flip is what we need to progress in this game. He is just at the center of... everything. Regardless of being correct or not, we can move on from there with actually significant VCA from d1 AND d2. I mean, this is also true about me. If i could challenge Hectic to a gladiator 1v1, i would.

Also we have just crossed the 5 days line from deadline, highest wagon is once again a spare. I don't know how i could be more honest about saying that i wouldn't spare hectic even if he is somehow allowed by the mod to show his role PM, just as much as i wouldn't spare myself. I am willing to talk about a compromise lynch. If we don't want Hectic, i would like to go for Chara. If Chara is off limits too, i pick Psyche. Can we talk about this for a while? It's not like i can prevent the majority by myself, but can we please just... talk about our own scumcases to see if there is any common ground?

pedit: i really hate being unnecessarily toxic. Sorry. It's just so hard to cope with town sometimes. I'm trying to improve on that.

[Replica]

"Arrogant scum" is pushing it, I think he's more risen to the challenge of the game. Letting town continue to rack up spares is death, and most scumplayers think that unless they take control and lead they're not really proving themselves as players.

[Bingle]

Hey guys, I think Farkran is a serial killer because he’s shit at being 3rd party.

[Nachomamma8]

"Arrogant scum" is pushing it, I think he's more risen to the challenge of the game. Letting town continue to rack up spares is death, and most scumplayers think that unless they take control and lead they're not really proving themselves as players.

I'm one of those players and there's a difference between "taking control" and "pushing players widely read as town and also have clout for absolutely fucking no reason". The former is normal and good. The latter is batshit.

[Farkran]

Hey guys, I think Farkran is a serial killer because he’s shit at being 3rd party.

Well, i never played SK or any third party in my career. I played jester a long time ago, off-site, and i was vigshot n1 so i guess i was pretty bad.

[Bingle]

I have no idea why anyone wouldn’t want to spare today, unless they specifically want a 1 spare route, tbh.

Mathematically, the shift from spare to lynch should only reverse if we hit scum. We have the same information for d2 as we would have from a traditional lynch and a diverse enough pool of people who others think should be locktown that we can actually get information from who is shot. We should probably lynch tomorrow, but sparing here seems like a no brainer with the combination of strong townreads and gamestate.

Speaking purely from random chance, we have a 7/9 chance to hit town today. That is a good set of odds.

[Replica]

Yeah, you respond very well (by well i mean, in a towny way) to pressure - at this point i think you would know that i mentioned you in the post you quoted here basically just to "summon" you back to the thread, am i correct? Yeah, i'm fairly confident Replica is town now. I will reread that Chara exchange with Amrun to see if you can have a point. Can you help me by highlighting the posts where you think there is almost conclusive evidence that Chara is worthy of your spare over any other player? I don't even want to bring back the spare vs fight argument, that's something we will probably never agree about - i just want to see we can find some common ground to work with because i no longer think you have enough scum equity to consider fighting you soon.

I actually don't remember seeing this post at all, my bad. #564 and #596 were the ones that caught my interest, though there are a few more of Chara asking Amrun more about the read on me scattered around.

This whole paragraph is really curious. I didn't really consider that you were trying to "summon" me, so much as just question why town Replica wouldn't do something even if your focus had switched by this point. My response was addressing an unquoted point before returning to the quoted and saying "Yeah, you're right, I should be doing this". Like, of all the posts of mine, this one is by far the strangest to townread: scum are insanely reactive to summons/incongruities like these. Responding in a towny way to pressure is also just incredibly vague, and I can only think that you would be getting at the idea that town often reactionary tunnel.

The most promising thing we have in common as far as I can tell would be sparing Bingle.

[Replica]

I have no idea why anyone wouldn’t want to spare today, unless they specifically want a 1 spare route, tbh.

Mathematically, the shift from spare to lynch should only reverse if we hit scum. We have the same information for d2 as we would have from a traditional lynch and a diverse enough pool of people who others think should be locktown that we can actually get information from who is shot. We should probably lynch tomorrow, but sparing here seems like a no brainer with the combination of strong townreads and gamestate.

Speaking purely from random chance, we have a 7/9 chance to hit town today. That is a good set of odds.

Ding ding ding, for any number of lynches you want, ask yourself "When is statistically the best time to use them?" and you get "Lynch later spare earlier"

[Replica]

I looked at Guns n Roses alimdia, stronger/more assertive play but I still didn't see the same level of investigation they do in this one. Scum alimdia really likes to unleash the accusations/scumcase all at once rather than laying out a more nuanced process over time. Granted, I only skimmed like half the game and need to double check, but I like the slot and think it's really underrated this game.

[Farkran]

I have no idea why anyone wouldn’t want to spare today, unless they specifically want a 1 spare route, tbh.

Mathematically, the shift from spare to lynch should only reverse if we hit scum. We have the same information for d2 as we would have from a traditional lynch and a diverse enough pool of people who others think should be locktown that we can actually get information from who is shot. We should probably lynch tomorrow, but sparing here seems like a no brainer with the combination of strong townreads and gamestate.

Speaking purely from random chance, we have a 7/9 chance to hit town today. That is a good set of odds.

Actually, no. We had no flip d1, we made the FN claim. It's vastly different. Any and all votes after the claim (or the slip, for that matter) are almost irrelevant. If we persisted on fighting, we would have a lynch flip on someone else, a dead FN, and an alive sherlock.

Instead, we have one spared town which will serve no purpose unless we go for a 3 or 4-spares route, a dead sherlock, and literally zero info.

This is not going to change in d3 if we spare today, with the aggravating exception that we will not be certain we have spared town today, leading to potential instant losses or dumb mylo/lylo situations that could be entirely avoided.

"The combination of strong townreads", where do you see that? Half of the playerlist is scumreading the other half. I probably have never seen such a disharmonic social context in my entire life except for poor politics, and yet there are at least a couple non-scum players favoring the no-info resolution over the one that could actually help improving our reads.

I don't know what else to say.

Also we have just crossed the 5 days line from deadline, highest wagon is once again a spare. I don't know how i could be more honest about saying that i wouldn't spare hectic even if he is somehow allowed by the mod to show his role PM, just as much as i wouldn't spare myself. I am willing to talk about a compromise lynch. If we don't want Hectic, i would like to go for Chara. If Chara is off limits too, i pick Psyche. Can we talk about this for a while? It's not like i can prevent the majority by myself, but can we please just... talk about our own scumcases to see if there is any common ground?

Can we just talk about this?

[Farkran]

"Arrogant scum" is pushing it, I think he's more risen to the challenge of the game. Letting town continue to rack up spares is death, and most scumplayers think that unless they take control and lead they're not really proving themselves as players.

And please, Replica. Please, please understand that if i was scum here i would meet pretty much no resistance whatsoever in sparing me or my partner. "Letting town continue to rack up spares is death" is completely nonsensical.

When i replaced in i could pretty much quickhammer Hectic, kill random town, spare the FN d2, kill random town and still easily push for a spare on my partner. The way the gamestate is, i could probably push for a spare on anyone right now. Just look at how many people are townreading any random slot. Literally any.

[Psyche]

this idea of "read progression" as alignment-indicative is quite interesting, seems ubiquitous, and has intuitive appeal
i just dont know how i'd test whether it's bullshit or not
maybe instead of a dataset of votes i need a dataset of reads

[Psyche]

Can we just talk about this?

i think you need to start getting more comfortable w the idea that the day is probably not going to end in a way you approve of

[Psyche]

this idea of "read progression" as alignment-indicative is quite interesting, seems ubiquitous, and has intuitive appeal
i just dont know how i'd test whether it's bullshit or not
maybe instead of a dataset of votes i need a dataset of reads

shit now i cant talk about this outside the thread

[Farkran]

Can we just talk about this?

i think you need to start getting more comfortable w the idea that the day is probably not going to end in a way you approve of

Yeah. Except there is nothing comfortable in ending the day like that. It's not even like i could say, "let's compromise on this guy for a spare"! Because we will NOT know if we were correct and therefore it's completely useless.

The only spare vote i will ever cast in this game is on myself, when we are in a situation where 3 people have been spared and i am L-1 from being the 4th spare. That's literally the only situation where it makes more sense to spare rather than mislynching town.

[Psyche]

maybe we spare farkran sooner rather than later
i'd say he's more definitely town than hectic after all

[Amrun]

But it wasn’t that you were calling him wrong that bothered me, it was more like you were calling him disingenuous there.

I wasn't calling him disingenuous in the post you've highlighted but I probably called him disingenuous and called him town anyways. Do you think that ScumCho is entirely unable to track reads and forgot that he called Farkran disingenuous and then called him town anyways or do you feel there should be something I'm scumreading that I'm not or...?

No, originally I was just questioning you to try and sort, but upon reflection, I think the ambiguity actually makes you more likely to be town because I think you would not do that so obviously as scum.

I have not miscounted Farkran as scum here though I do townlean him. I can see Farkran producing 100% of this content as scum. I think as scum he’s be a little more likely to produce something more in line with consensus reads, hence my town lean. I don’t think it’s impossible that he do that as scum, though.

[Amrun]

Why do you think there is scum motivation in defending the lurkers, honestly?

My initial thought was that Chemist as scum wouldn't defend the lurkers because there's no reason for him to stick his neck out for them.

My second thought is that Chemist defended the lurkers so he could sit back and take potshots at the townies pushing the lurkers and then have a place to sit after the lurkers are lynched. I think his tone is as flat and uninspiring as Ben Stein giving the State of the Union Address and I really can't find someone who I'd rather kick out of the playhouse than him.

I’m going to be honest and I hope chemist doesn’t take offense, but this seems like planning more into the future than anything I have seen chemist do up until this point in any game I have ever played with him. He is not a dumb guy but he seems to play super in-the-moment to me.

[Psyche]

hmm interesting post

...yeah im picking up townreads too easily

[Amrun]

Also I agree with Farkran that sparing today is totally different than sparing FN yesterday. Having no flip today makes me disgusted.

I’d probably vote to fight almost anyone that would go through rather than sparing anyone still alive.

[Bingle]

Akshually:

HEAL: Farkran

I have reasons to want to delay the hectic spare that I cannot elaborate into at this time.