Mini Theme 2116 - Undertale S Open

Bingle · Post Post #2000 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:33 am

In post 1978, Chara wrote:Bingle: why is Chemist your favourite out of those three?

Mostly? I'm interested in who among all the people who say they're interested in lynching Chem is actually interested in lynching Chem and who isn't.

Farkran · Post Post #2001 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:36 am

The more i try to re-examine things, the more i can't see a gamestate where Hectic is not scum. Hectic has always been on his own spare wagons, and {Nacho > Replica = Chara > Amrun} have been orbiting around that wagon trying to make it succeed at some point, even in the face of easier lynch alternatives on me, both d1 and d2. I cannot possibly think that scum allowed a town spare when they had such an easy town lynch available. This applies to pretty much everyone who is still alive in the game. There is just no reason to let the Hectic spare happen from a scum point of view. The only teams that make sense are Farkran/{Chemist, Bingle} and it's... just not possible.

Replica, Chemist and Almidia could have voted Asriel/Fark d1. Chemist, Bingle, Amrun, Nacho, Chara could have voted Fark d2. Why did a Hectic spare happen? Why did Hectic quickspare his own wagon in d2 - when there was no risk for the FN to be outed - while he waited in d1?

It just does not make sense. Hectic has to be scum, and the partner is very likely among {Nacho, Chara}. Maybe Replica. If you are compromising on me, these are pretty much my last words, i really don't think i have anything to add to this game.

Bingle · Post Post #2002 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 11:40 am

In post 1966, Farkran wrote:Wondering why you aren't working from there instead of going through chemist first. What makes you think people will compromise on chemist more than they would compromise on amrun? What are you going to do if chemist flips town?

Exactly 1 scum in {Asriel/Nacho/Amrun/Chara} also implies 1 scum in {Chem/Bingle/Rep(/Hectic I guess)}. I'm hard tr-ing Rep.

Do you disagree with my thought that scum doesn't doublevote a policy lurker wagon very often in micros?

Also, if Chem flips town, I reevaluate with the dual flips and an additional wagon and come at tomorrow looking to lynch and assuming I get flipped before endgame.

Farkran · Post Post #2003 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 12:34 pm

In post 2002, Bingle wrote:
In post 1966, Farkran wrote:Wondering why you aren't working from there instead of going through chemist first. What makes you think people will compromise on chemist more than they would compromise on amrun? What are you going to do if chemist flips town?
Exactly 1 scum in {Asriel/Nacho/Amrun/Chara} also implies 1 scum in {Chem/Bingle/Rep(/Hectic I guess)}. I'm hard tr-ing Rep.

Do you disagree with my thought that scum doesn't doublevote a policy lurker wagon very often in micros?

Also, if Chem flips town, I reevaluate with the dual flips and an additional wagon and come at tomorrow looking to lynch and assuming I get flipped before endgame.

How is Chem scum with Nacho/Amrun/Chara though? Asriel was their target, not part of the wagon

Why would scum!chem with a non-Asriel partner allow a spare instead of pushing a mislynch on town!Asriel? I mean, Chemist was sparing Asriel back in d1. Towncred is ok, but why would you allow the day to end in a spare that is not your partner when you can push a better alternative without looking scummy?

popsofctown · Post Post #2004 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:47 pm

Spare Votecount 3.2

Replica ---------------------------------

Farkran --------------------------------

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

Bingle----------------------------------

(1)

Replica, Bingle

Not sparing:

- (5) Farkran, Amrun, Chara, Nachomamma8, Chemist1422

Fight Votecount 3.2

Replica ----------------------------------

Farkran --------------------------------

(2)

Replica, Amrun

Amrun ----------------------------------

Chara -----------------------------------

Nachomamma8 ------------------------

(1)

Farkran

Chemist1422 ---------------------------

(1)

Bingle

Bingle--------------------------------------

Not Fighting:

- (3) Chara, Nachomamma8, Chemist1422

3>3>3>3>

<3<3

Bingle looked a little bit pensive. "In my education in becoming a doctor I also received a mastered degree in Astronomy. Also Chemistry and Mycology. But most importantly, Biology," Bingle began.

Bingle was literally 3.

"As a biologist I can classify monsters, we classify based on a genetics. I have noticed that Psyche only had one eye, and Chemist1422 also only has one eye. Therefore they have the same genetics half-life," Bingle began pacing back and forth, fancying itself a sort of professor. It was rather awkward with its stubby legs, but it managed.

"I propose that if we amputate Chemist1422's limbs, he will become immobile, and that will change him from having mostly Psyche genetics to having exactly Psyche genetics. Chemist1422's limbs are healthy so they will be hard to remove but one of the first rules of the code of doctors is 'Do Arm', and 'Do Leg' is eighth or so. Then Chemist1422 can be our replacement dummy. The funny thing is that when we pick sides for kickball Chemist1422 will go from last pick to last pick." Bingle did a strange sort of laugh at its own joke that was totally unvocalized, but it sprayed spurt of lava out of its crater in a way that was clearly a humored reaction.

Chemist1422 cradled his left leg protectively. His limbs were his most treasured features aside from his eye. This was most probably because his limbs were essentially his only features aside from his eye. "I don't mind if I'm not the best at kickball, but please don't bully me about it. And I would really rather keep my limbs.. thanks.." His huge eye began to glisten with a film of water as Bingle's proposal and jab punctured Chemist1422's fragile emotional state.

With seven alive, it takes four to make a decision.
(expired on 2020-02-24 20:00:00).
Replacement Key

popsofctown · Post Post #2005 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 1:58 pm

A previous post implying Psyche ever had more than one eye was edited away because I can do that because I'm writing flavor in a mafia game and not releasing a serial television program.
This is one of the points I'm selectively conforming to canon on, tricking the player into presuming that Training Dummy has two eyes is one of game's many microjokes.

The deadline in the most recent VCs and all VCs is correct, I avoided posting any deadlines before finalizing the deadline. There will not be a deadline extension for Nacho's V/LA because his V/LA doesn't completely encompass the day phase.

Replica · Post Post #2006 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:42 pm

I'll be back in force tomorrow night instead of shitposting to procrastinate on the things I should be doing irl.

The fact that Farkran has been the only one to actually explain their read on me is pretty disappointing for me, but I try to leave it to others to ask about those.

I buy his team/kill analysis on me a lot more than I do the "genuine frustration" bit, which is a bad towntell both for me specifically and for most players in general.

Bingle · Post Post #2007 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 2:44 pm

In post 2003, Farkran wrote:How is Chem scum with Nacho/Amrun/Chara though? Asriel was their target, not part of the wagon

Why would scum!chem with a non-Asriel partner allow a spare instead of pushing a mislynch on town!Asriel? I mean, Chemist was sparing Asriel back in d1. Towncred is ok, but why would you allow the day to end in a spare that is not your partner when you can push a better alternative without looking scummy?

In post 2003, Farkran wrote:How is Chem scum with Nacho/Amrun/Chara though? Asriel was their target, not part of the wagon

What?

I've explained why I think Asriel (you) isn't scum with Nacho/Amrun/Chara. I just explained why I don't think Nacho/Amrun/Chara are scum together.

If you're arguing Chem would have pushed the lynch through, why? Burning towncred by 180-ing on his lurker stance to get a low value lurker lynch through would be pretty dumb there, tbh. If you're arguing he should have done so after you replaced in that would have been the opposite.

This was still early game, and most semi competent players aren't going to be looking to get any mislynch that comes around but rather to set up their team for townreads. I find it unlikely that both scum would commit to a lurker push like that, so assuming I would think that someone is town because they're not aligning themselves perfectly with the reads of other potential players is at the very least batshit.

Similarly, why would vanity sparing the lurker wagon not be a scum move if he thought the wagon would flip on town? Being publicly against a town wagon seems like exactly the kind of thing scum would want. Or is the insistence that the Asriel wagon wouldn't have gone through without Chem's support?

Amrun · Post Post #2008 (ISO) » Fri Feb 21, 2020 5:15 pm

In post 2006, Replica wrote:I'll be back in force tomorrow night instead of shitposting to procrastinate on the things I should be doing irl.

The fact that Farkran has been the only one to actually explain their read on me is pretty disappointing for me, but I try to leave it to others to ask about those.

I buy his team/kill analysis on me a lot more than I do the "genuine frustration" bit, which is a bad towntell both for me specifically and for most players in general.

Did you not understand my explanation of my read on you?

Granted, it was pretty short, but posting towncases just isn’t my way.

Farkran · Post Post #2009 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 12:27 am

In post 2007, Bingle wrote:
In post 2003, Farkran wrote:How is Chem scum with Nacho/Amrun/Chara though? Asriel was their target, not part of the wagon

Why would scum!chem with a non-Asriel partner allow a spare instead of pushing a mislynch on town!Asriel? I mean, Chemist was sparing Asriel back in d1. Towncred is ok, but why would you allow the day to end in a spare that is not your partner when you can push a better alternative without looking scummy?

In post 2003, Farkran wrote:How is Chem scum with Nacho/Amrun/Chara though? Asriel was their target, not part of the wagon
What?

I've explained why I think Asriel (you) isn't scum with Nacho/Amrun/Chara. I just explained why I don't think Nacho/Amrun/Chara are scum together.

If you're arguing Chem would have pushed the lynch through, why? Burning towncred by 180-ing on his lurker stance to get a low value lurker lynch through would be pretty dumb there, tbh. If you're arguing he should have done so after you replaced in that would have been the opposite.

This was still early game, and most semi competent players aren't going to be looking to get any mislynch that comes around but rather to set up their team for townreads. I find it unlikely that both scum would commit to a lurker push like that, so assuming I would think that someone is town because they're not aligning themselves perfectly with the reads of other potential players is at the very least batshit.

Similarly, why would vanity sparing the lurker wagon not be a scum move if he thought the wagon would flip on town? Being publicly against a town wagon seems like exactly the kind of thing scum would want. Or is the insistence that the Asriel wagon wouldn't have gone through without Chem's support?

I mean - i can follow how Chemist is partner with Asriel, but i cannot follow how Chemist is partner with anyone else, not just those on asriel wagon. I don't think chemist would have had any issues lynching Asriel, or changing his read when Farkran replaced in. Allowing a town spare on Hectic in both d1 and d2 is not good practice for any scumteam not including Hectic himself. While i think that sparing is one of the most powerful weapons for scum, it's dangerous if you allow town to spare players that you know to be town.

Your reasoning about towncred would be correct in a standard game where you would be forced to lynch *someone*, therefore being off a town wagon will make you look better - but it's different in this game. Allowing 1 town spare is kinda ok, but would you allow two? Why does scum!Chemist spare Farkran d2? Would you have done that, as scum, instead of revisiting your reads and lynch me instead?

Replica · Post Post #2010 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:44 pm

The fact that the gap in these is 7 minutes and 2 minutes respectively does not fill me with optimism, either in that Chemisttown is seriously firing from the hip or is not town.

In post 1996, Chemist1422 wrote:I got around to skimming Chara's ISO and like how it builds its ideas around townhunting and how it uses those to approach the game

I also think its Hectic read is genuine, especially if Hectic is town

I'm gonna reread around the D1 Sherlock/Suji situation and reactions to it now

In post 1997, Chemist1422 wrote:I think Farkran, Hectic, and Chara all had towny reactions to the original Sherlock post, Amrun sticking out as the one that didn't

I'll reread from the FN claim now

In post 1998, Chemist1422 wrote:I liked Amrun's reaction to the FN claim a lot actually

Chara's was okay, I didn't like Farkran's

I think I'm talking myself back into it being Bingle/Nacho

The team I think is most likely is Fark/Chemist but any team with Amrun/Nacho in it is very up in the air. Thinking about it I don't think Nacho/Fark is as plausible as I thought. This is true even without the vote, but now that I consider the vote it goes even further down imo I'm probably alone in thinking that Amrun/Fark is still possible, more just off the strength of Amrun. Amrun/Chemist I can also see, Nacho/Chemist is hypothetically possible but less so. Nacho/Amrun seems unlikely too.

I feel like I can pursue four avenues here.
1) Wait out deadline to strongarm Nacho/someone else into voting Fark
2) Amrun, who has probably spared 2 town and shares most of my reads. Probably the single most likely to be scum besides Fark, mostly because nightkills, but her partner is ???
3) Chemist, who we could easily get a coalition around and despite occasional flashes that make me gut townread him in general has awful, low-effort reads and bad interactions with the plausible scum (Fark/Amrun)
4) Nacho, no. Fark is shoving this and most teams with Nacho don't seem likely, the most plausible team here off the top off my head is like, Nacho/Chara.

#1 is likely. #3 would be my next choice. I'm also still really wishing we could spare one of me/Bingle today but that probably won't happen unless Amrun/Nacho come around to it.

Replica · Post Post #2011 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:46 pm

Worst part here is that there's probably a way I could have forced a Bingle/me spare by not being honest with my preferences but here we are, in the year 2020, new decade new me.

That post was kind of a slipshod stream of consciousness/working the teams and lynch possibilities out on the fly, rather than something more reader-friendly, but ah well.

Replica · Post Post #2012 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:53 pm

In post 2008, Amrun wrote:Did you not understand my explanation of my read on you?

Granted, it was pretty short, but posting towncases just isn’t my way.

I forgot about it, and I guess it works but it's not the greatest to me.

Like, I've also been tempted to call you town for the way our reads/interests have lined up at times. I think this makes more sense from my perspective than yours. Let's say I'm scum and you're town. If I have the same reads as you, there's not really any danger to me in doing so as long as it doesn't lead to my partner getting lynched. Either you probably townread my partner too, or my partner is Bingle...in which case it fully explains why I diverge here.

The same generally works in reverse with you being the scum, except you probably push Bingle to get a mislynch somewhere outside Fark.

...Thinking about it, though, why not just hardpush Fark with me and try to recruit Nacho to the cause in a Rep/Farktown, Amrun scum world? Maybe I'm being overly cautious here. I think you voting your partner is possible but not likely.

Replica · Post Post #2013 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 2:58 pm

My preference is now something like Rep/Bingle spare -> Fark lynch -> Chemist lynch -> Amrun lynch -> Nacho lynch. The order on Nacho/Amrun causes me deeply spiritual pain me but you have to do what you have to do.

Last thing I really need to do is delve into Chara. This has been really difficult and my eyes have glazed over the last two times I tried but a bad townread here completely wrecks any chance of winning.

Replica · Post Post #2014 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:33 pm

I made this instead and I'm not sorry.

Replica · Post Post #2015 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 3:44 pm

Spoiler: Alright last shitpost/forbidden Nacho summoning technique of the night

Amrun · Post Post #2016 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:09 pm

In post 2013, Replica wrote:My preference is now something like Rep/Bingle spare -> Fark lynch -> Chemist lynch -> Amrun lynch -> Nacho lynch. The order on Nacho/Amrun causes me deeply spiritual pain me but you have to do what you have to do.

Last thing I really need to do is delve into Chara. This has been really difficult and my eyes have glazed over the last two times I tried but a bad townread here completely wrecks any chance of winning.

I feel like my TR or Chara is weak but I’ve still got nothing else there. It’s concerning.

Amrun · Post Post #2017 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 6:12 pm

I’d spare you in a pinch, Replica, but not only do I think we should lynch here, I’d also selfishly feel lost at sea without you and I just don’t want to subject myself to that gamestate.

*cue scum killing Replica*

Jesus fuck, that’s going to happen, isn’t it?

H8 everything

Bingle · Post Post #2018 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:24 pm

Fark, I don't think you can manage a Nacho lynch this close to the deadline. Of the options of sparing me, lynching you and lynching Chem which do you prefer?

Bingle · Post Post #2019 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:24 pm

In post 2017, Amrun wrote:Jesus fuck, that’s going to happen, isn’t it?

Yeah, probably.

Bingle · Post Post #2020 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:26 pm

Rep, what do you think about my thoughts that the only viable Farkran partners are you/Chem and thus I would vastly prefer to lynch Chem?

Bingle · Post Post #2021 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:27 pm

(I don't think Fark/Rep makes sense anymore even if Rep is somehow scum, btw, because turbobussing this close to deadline with functional whiteflag is bonkers.)

Bingle · Post Post #2022 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 8:29 pm

In post 2004, popsofctown wrote:"I propose that if we amputate Chemist1422's limbs, he will become immobile, and that will change him from having mostly Psyche genetics to having exactly Psyche genetics. Chemist1422's limbs are healthy so they will be hard to remove but one of the first rules of the code of doctors is 'Do Arm', and 'Do Leg' is eighth or so. Then Chemist1422 can be our replacement dummy. The funny thing is that when we pick sides for kickball Chemist1422 will go from last pick to last pick." Bingle did a strange sort of laugh at its own joke that was totally unvocalized, but it sprayed spurt of lava out of its crater in a way that was clearly a humored reaction.

Also, clearly pops supports cutting off limbs, because I'm a doctor.

Replica · Post Post #2023 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:09 pm

I understood it but didn't agree, working out the teams earlier today I came more to agreement though. I think Amrun still has a place if she's playing extremely well, Nacho is a bit more up in the air. I could see you too I guess but I didn't even consider this earlier since I am not really interested in potential Bingle teams rn.

I'm on my phone trying to fall asleep but I read about half of the Chara ISO and came away feeling much better this time, particularly about their Hectic progression and push for their spare over Suji Day 1. I'll finish up+try to lay it out more tomorrow. I also forgot how comically terrible Farkran's #945 was.

For Amrun, we've come a long way since #607. If I die, I'll miss you...FRIEND ;_;

but also one of us has to sit through a 5 way with at least one, if not both, of chemist/fark and dear sweet heavenly cat god on high don't let it be me

Replica · Post Post #2024 (ISO) » Sat Feb 22, 2020 9:29 pm

Amrun's posting about me lately would also be excellent scumplay. I've been very intentional to limit how much I credit her for our reads/mutual respect. I've expressed skepticism of reads matching up being a towntell, and expressed that I find it off that she isn't expressing the same kind of caution. Buttering me up really has not been working, for like, several days now.

But her reaction has been to keep posting about how much they value my posting/perspective and to double down on the dread of my removal. Instead of adjusting a strategy that clearly isn't working at best and is backfiring at the worst, she's doubling down. I would have expected her to just stop posting about it by now if she were scum.