TM2020 - Large Theme - Gay Mafia IV: TOWN WIN

[davesaz]

I don't like the idea of FB leaning on RC.
Yes it's team mafia. It's absolutely not an excuse to not play the game yourself.

[Gammagooey]

And do you remember how you felt about Flavor Leaf through days 3 & 4?

Somewhat suspicious evidenced by 4875 and 5097.
I couldn't do anything more than speed read huge chunks of those days IIRC due to V/LA and heavy work days draining my brain.

Really?

Neither of those posts really indicate to me that you were suspicious of him, just responding to him/his play, and #4875 is you agreeing with FL that Maria looks like scum caught for the wrong reasons.

You also had this day 3

Nom has been pressured/a wagon suggestion for most of the game yeah.
pedit: FL I'm gonna grab my taser

I don’t like how anytime Nomnom starts to see me getting pushed a bit, she immediately moves from on my side to stabbing me in the back. This has happened 4 times only for her to drop it right after and go somewhere else like it never happened.

It feels forced.

And I believe I’m actually pretty good at reading Nomnom.

That would actually be bus indicative. Not a very strong indicator but it's what I think when seeing it.
I don't see scum!FL bringing this up though.

and followed FL immediately onto DEB day 4

Scum removed me because they want to ensure nom has venge because she is gonna shoot wrong and they want her to save them work

Which is what Maria says as point 2 and I agree

So let’s not lynch nom

Yet you voted me? This is kind of a contradiction by you because I’ve been actively trying to not have Nomnom be the lynch here.


Biggest thing that gives me pause on DEB is Maria pushing it, but I’m okay killing there.

VOTE: DEB

Curious to what happens.

I think DEB is similar here to D&D where he was cult leader.
VOTE: DEB

[davesaz]

So you haven't seen independent thought before, that happens to juxtapose with something else.

[Gammagooey]

And tbf I don't even really think the DEB vote right after Flavor is that bad on its own, you can think someone is scummy and potentially bussing their partner or just shrug and figure that they're both scummy and maybe you're wrong on one, especially with DEB's lurktastic play

But do you really think given your thoughts on FL at the time that would have joined a wagon on FL day 3 or day 4 if a serious one had come up? If you don't remember having a particularly strong opinion on him at the time it's fine and I'd like to hear that but I'm trying to figure out what you actually thought about him at the time and that doesn't really seem to match up.

[Firebringer]

I don't like the idea of FB leaning on RC.
Yes it's team mafia. It's absolutely not an excuse to not play the game yourself.

Good thing u don’t need to like it

[davesaz]

Somewhat

Words have meanings, you should look this one up.
I'm an extremely precise person.
Except when I lack the time or I'm trying to do stuff on a tiny screen that needs a full keyboard and big display.

[davesaz]

I don't like the idea of FB leaning on RC.
Yes it's team mafia. It's absolutely not an excuse to not play the game yourself.

Good thing u don’t need to like it

Can we please PL this?

[Gammagooey]

My lord dave I don't care about your pedantic sass

This is prob the last question I have for you tonight if you don't mind answering it.

But do you think given your thoughts on FL at the time that would have joined a wagon on FL day 3 or day 4 if a serious one had come up? If you don't remember having a particularly strong opinion on him at the time it's fine and I'd like to hear that but I'm trying to figure out what you actually thought about him at the time

[Gammagooey]

Yeah I'm gonna go sleep

I'll sum up my thoughts on the read-through tomorrow afternoon or sometime around then assuming the day's still going

[davesaz]

No, on day 3 I thought DV was scum, and suspected the RB hood partner was Maria. FL hadn't done anything at that point that would lead me to want to vote him. Enough to pay attention.

I might have gone for "comma gate" the same day it first came up if the pattern of evidence had also come out at that time. If that was D4, then it's possible. He really imploded when pressed and if that implosion had happened sooner I would have jumped on him.

You're going to ask why I voted FB, which I have already answered. If we're already going to lynch scum, and I see a clear partner tell like FB chainsawing me, hell yes I'm going to draw attention to it.

Let's recap and update a bit.
FB chainsawed and doesn't seem able to act on his own.
Panth doesn't really seem to have true scum reads and had to be put to L-1 plus see that someone else would join him before he'd attack me.

Don't forget that scum!FL tried to conftown Gammagoey. Why does scum want to conftown anyone?
I'm only on the table because I'm the only real danger to scum here. Town loses if you keep this up.

[panthaleon]

I don't like the idea of FB leaning on RC.
Yes it's team mafia. It's absolutely not an excuse to not play the game yourself.

Good thing u don’t need to like it

Can we please PL this?

Lol

[panthaleon]

I don't like the idea of FB leaning on RC.
Yes it's team mafia. It's absolutely not an excuse to not play the game yourself.

Lol

[panthaleon]

@panth - why did you not like how I joined nom's wagon at the start of day...whatever it was when nom got lynched (4 probably?)
What did you like about Maria's posting early on?

I actually don't remember other than feeling like you were trying to play me. I wasn't really feeling like I was making a great case and people were looking for a way to use me for my wagon

Maria was nice and seemed Confident and that was good enough for me. Kuribo can confirm my biggest issue with the game was feeling like the people I like were scum and the people I didn't were just town pissing me off

[Ankamius]

Internet's out atm gamma so I'm going to hold on checking in more detail

But that game I kinda just got a really good gamestate read early game so it's not impossible I caught dave for being on the wrong side of the game more than anything he did specifically

[Almost50]

Don't forget that scum!FL tried to conftown Gammagoey. Why does scum want to conftown anyone?

Again: because it was clearly sus AF if gooey was the scum NK and DEB was the LMS. Confirming your future NK provides the necessary WIFOM of "DEB got the LMS bc he is no threat to scum". Let;s not forget the LMS of that particular hood was not yet revealed, so if scum could have lynched in me/Ank the next day the Vig shot on DEB would have failed and they would have killed the Vig too (well, they

assumed

the Vig shot would be on DEB)

[Ankamius]

EC has stuff to say:

I don't really give a shit what Ank and Kuribo are talking about. Ank is legitimately cleared because Almost50 spent all of some night (4?) talking about how he was always going to be killing FL or DEB and that they were his top two scumreads by a large margin, and casing them to her... and on top of that, scum!Ank gets a free vig shot by killing her too. And Almost50 has survived both of them dying. That itself is clearing.

Speaking of A50, he and Gamma are townclear level of town, and I'm in awe that Panth is even considering them as scum.

[kuribo]

I've said it for years and I'll say it until the day comes that I'm finally permbanned for telling someone to crawl up their own ass and suffocate on feces

Nobody is confirmed town until they're dead or mod cleared.

And I'm not even trying to shade ank as scum, I just hate the site meta where people run around calling themselves confirmed town.

[kuribo]

And besides if that clears you then it clears me too: A50 has been hard townreading me for days while you and I went at at each other's throats, yet I never made a move to toss a vig shot to someone who absolutely wouldn't have shot me.

Now I'm not saying that fact does make me cleared town, I'm just pointing out how that rabbit hole goes and why I hate how eager people on the site are to AHA IM CONFTOWN AND SO IS X.

Like that's how you get played; towns aren't nearly paranoid enough. Trust no one except the dead and the mod confirmed has always been my motto.

[Ankamius]

Paranoia is how scum come back in gamestates like this

[Ankamius]

Like

It's all well and good to want to be absolutely sure about something before committing to it and wanting to look at every angle

But this game has a metric fuckton of noise and you don't need to factor in more than little chunks of it in order to get an accurate read

I tend to have "shallow" reads because of this, I just look at what the most AI things are and don't factor in everything else. Why would I need to check someone's associatives with every other slot and look at how they handled every single wagon when I can find 2-3 things that don't make any sense from a scum mindset and double check that against what I know every day?

Truth is, the way this game has gone makes it very evident that the game has been based around tampering with the neighborhoods with night actions and manipulating the players with day play.

That's an entirely reasonable deduction to reach and it says some very fascinating things about this game if you look back to what's been happening this game.

[davesaz]

I've said it for years and I'll say it until the day comes that I'm finally permbanned for telling someone to crawl up their own ass and suffocate on feces

Nobody is confirmed town until they're dead or mod cleared.

And I'm not even trying to shade ank as scum, I just hate the site meta where people run around calling themselves confirmed town.

Oh, so there is someone else other than me who understands this very basic but apparently hard to swallow concept.

[davesaz]

Don't forget that scum!FL tried to conftown Gammagoey. Why does scum want to conftown anyone?

Again: because it was clearly sus AF if gooey was the scum NK and DEB was the LMS. Confirming your future NK provides the necessary WIFOM of "DEB got the LMS bc he is no threat to scum". Let;s not forget the LMS of that particular hood was not yet revealed, so if scum could have lynched in me/Ank the next day the Vig shot on DEB would have failed and they would have killed the Vig too (well, they

assumed

the Vig shot would be on DEB)

OK, that's a moderately sensible view. Let's explore some followup scenarios.

Suppose DEB and Gammagoey are both scum with FL. I think the scumteam gains a lot from trying to conf Gammagoey. If DEB then goes down, which looks pretty likely from all the people who suspected him up to that point, it leaves the scumteam with a quasi-confirmed locktown. Isn't that the very definition of how to set your scum team up to win?

Suppose I'm scum with DEB and FL. FL confs Gamma, and lays down suspicion on me by casting doubt on my use of the LMS. Surely we can't think that DEB is going to endgame. Sure at that point FL hasn't gone down so you could cast this scenario as a straightforward virtual bus on me. But FL still has to deal with a very unnecessary confirmed townie. On top of that, if I'm teamed with FL then why don't I back his play? That path hypothetically makes me look better, and both of us potentially survive and go on to win. If you look closely I actively worked against FL's attempt to conf Gamma.

Third scenario, Gamma and I are both town. It's pretty unclear to me in this case how confing Gamma helps the scumteam. The objective had to be to cast doubt on me, the investigative.

=====================================
Once again, all of that being said,

I still TR Gamma on behavior

. This whole post is my gift to town should you be stupid enough to lynch me. If it gets down to a bunch of ObvTown left at LYLO, this is my posthumous vote.

If we lynch obv scum, I think we just win. Panth -> FB is the solve.

[panthaleon]

Oka wants to know who Eddie Cane thinks is scum

[Firebringer]

I don't like the idea of FB leaning on RC.
Yes it's team mafia. It's absolutely not an excuse to not play the game yourself.

Good thing u don’t need to like it

Can we please PL this?

Grow up

[davesaz]

Remember that other guy we lynched for refusing to do anything useful in the game?
He flipped scum.