Mini Normal 2119 [game over]

[Micc]

If it's icon he has options for what to claim here. I don't feel the need to discuss how i feel about each possibility when it will be narrowed down to one in ~6 hours. but there is a world where icon finds that discussion useful for deciding what to claim.

[Iconeum]

Targeted micc

Samen result as prev two nights

[Micc]

To be clear, the result you’re claiming is the equivalent of a No Result and not a Didn’t Visit, right? And you’ve verified with the moderator that you would see those things differently?

[Micc]

For icon to be Town we must assume that the last scum is a multitasking roleblocker/jailkeeper. That player blocked icon nights 3 thru 5. On night 2 that player blocked slaxx, preventing him from using the rolestop on Aaron. Datisi blocked Menalque night 2.

I believe this means menalque can’t be scum. And I’m Town. So it would be Icon scum. I’m going to sleep on that logic and see how I feel in the morning. If it holds up icon will be getting my fake vote.

[Iconeum]

To be clear, the result you’re claiming is the equivalent of a No Result and not a Didn’t Visit, right? And you’ve verified with the moderator that you would see those things differently?

I've not verified that specifically, but I will. I'm actually assuming that I either get a result like in the first couple days, or one like i'm getting the last couple days.

[Iconeum]

oh boy that math kill is kinda incriminating to me don't you think, micc?

[Iconeum]

now which one of you two bussed his partner yesterday

and why did you kill math, who was 150% sure to vote me today?

[Iconeum]

Datisi blocked Menalque night 2.

huh right

so if scum have an interfering role, ur conf scum

thanks

*votes micc*

[Iconeum]

in real short and easy to understand words

i will rather lose to menal here then to micc

i don't think i can forgive myself voting menal and losing the game to a slot that i've been calling scum all friggin game

[Iconeum]

Micc if you are town

you need to start pushing menal

[Micc]

I don’t understand how you can have a lack of understanding about how your results work at this stage. Or why you seem willing to vote despite that lack of understanding.

If you think there’s a world where you and I are Town you need to refute the mechanics I posted about.

[Iconeum]

Spoiler:

I could see piecing together Datisi's role. I could see having an ability to know Datisi targeted Menalque N2.

but even then the scum team would have taken Icon, who is in very good standing after leading a scum lynch D1 and had him fakeclaim a guilty D2 on Aaron for what reason? Even if the scum team found out aaron was a Cop through N1 actions, the play is to shoot aaron N2. Not to have the person best setup to deepwolf fakeclaim a guilty.

Combined Tracker Follower is very much allowed under normal guidelines.

That’s not what he claimed though.

And if he is a tracker follower he’d be a second cop which goes back to the point you haven’t addressed about Jill priority.

Wondering if it’s Ico+Micc here actually.

yes, his claim was very very messy. You need to read the 5-10 pages that came with it if you haven't already. I was in your shoes and argued many of the points you're arguing. fwiw Datisi has a much better relationshop with icon than anyone here and vouched for these mistakes to be within icon's town range multiple times. and I actually trust that silly as it seems

Combined has been Normal as of this announcement despite the wiki not being clear. You're welcome to verify with the mod or listmod. As a sidenote, this game has brought to light a lot of holes in how normal role interactions are defined and I expect you will see things more clearly laid out once NRG has a chance to review the problems from this game.

predit: I'm glad you're reading the follow up to his claim at least. that context matters I think

Spoiler:

but even then the scum team would have taken Icon, who is in very good standing after leading a scum lynch D1 and had him fakeclaim a guilty D2 on Aaron for what reason? Even if the scum team found out aaron was a Cop through N1 actions, the play is to shoot aaron N2. Not to have the person best setup to deepwolf fakeclaim a guilty.

Lots of assumptions there:

1) Ico didn’t lead the wagon it was a stagnant vote as pointed out in earlier VCs.
2) He didn’t fake claim a guilty of any sort. He was using what he knew to be true to mislead and try to townfirm himself. I did this really well in Shadowrun where we had a nightly hood/message and convinced the cop to never be on the person we wanted to kill. Scum is about making things seem true that are false and vice versa and being in a good position.
3) The reasoning for Ico’s actions was to establish a fake claim that was believable. Ico was heading towards too Townie territory so needed to get mechanical trust to stick around.

One more point here before I drop Icon discussion for the night:

~90% of my exposure to mafia being from the newbie queue leads me away from considering situations where the scum team has range as strong as you’re describing here. Newbies just don’t come to the site with that much scum range as a general rule.

A good portion of the site doesn’t have the scum range you’re describing here. I certainly don’t. I’ll take your word for it that you do, we haven’t crossed paths enough for me to gauge your meta. My impression of Icon is that he doesn’t have this kind of scum range, and Datisi who I believe to be a trustworthy judge of icon’s range was pretty adamant that this isn’t it.

So even if you're right about icon and the scum team to have set all this up, I’m more in the ‘they’ll have earned their win’ camp than anything else.

Predit: icon showing up means I’m probably not keeping up now that I’m on phone and will likely pack it in till tomorrow.

Spoiler:

but even then the scum team would have taken Icon, who is in very good standing after leading a scum lynch D1 and had him fakeclaim a guilty D2 on Aaron for what reason? Even if the scum team found out aaron was a Cop through N1 actions, the play is to shoot aaron N2. Not to have the person best setup to deepwolf fakeclaim a guilty.

Lots of assumptions there:

1) Ico didn’t lead the wagon it was a stagnant vote as pointed out in earlier VCs.
2) He didn’t fake claim a guilty of any sort. He was using what he knew to be true to mislead and try to townfirm himself. I did this really well in Shadowrun where we had a nightly hood/message and convinced the cop to never be on the person we wanted to kill. Scum is about making things seem true that are false and vice versa and being in a good position.
3) The reasoning for Ico’s actions was to establish a fake claim that was believable. Ico was heading towards too Townie territory so needed to get mechanical trust to stick around.

One more point here before I drop Icon discussion for the night:

~90% of my exposure to mafia being from the newbie queue leads me away from considering situations where the scum team has range as strong as you’re describing here. Newbies just don’t come to the site with that much scum range as a general rule.

A good portion of the site doesn’t have the scum range you’re describing here. I certainly don’t. I’ll take your word for it that you do, we haven’t crossed paths enough for me to gauge your meta. My impression of Icon is that he doesn’t have this kind of scum range, and Datisi who I believe to be a trustworthy judge of icon’s range was pretty adamant that this isn’t it.

So even if you're right about icon and the scum team to have set all this up, I’m more in the ‘they’ll have earned their win’ camp than anything else.

Predit: icon showing up means I’m probably not keeping up now that I’m on phone and will likely pack it in till tomorrow.

Nah Dat blocked Ico only way Ico would be town. I don’t see that if Dat was “that” sure. It’s much more likely Dat found the arguments convincing and roleblocked Ico and then the scumbuddy of Ico’s killed Dat.

Datisi was pretty adamant about all these things I'm saying. There was another memorable post that I can't seem to find right now that went along the lines of "I've seen Icon scum. This aint it".

Spoiler:

if you were anyone else i'd be screaming "scum" right now

That's lame. So you give only Ico free passes? Why?

no
my point was
iconeum is trully horrible with mechanics
and him fucking up the name of his own role, TWICE, is something i would usually condemn on a different player
but i know town!ico is very very capable of that

town!icon is very capable of fucking a claim up like this
like
extremely capable lmao

what the fuck is this setup

what the FUCK is this setup

yeah icon's play makes no fucking sense as scum
if he's found 2 stronk town PRs
the fuck is he doing lmao

oh yeah that
icon literally never misread his result
he called his role by the wrong name but he never misread his result
and considering he knew both (1) what action i used (follower) and (2) who i targeted (tracker) he's not fakeclaiming

@slaxx

because, in a game i recently modded, scum!emps got blocked by a town roleblocker and got lynched the day afterwards. I thought that if emps rolled scum here there was no way in hell he was doing the kill after that happened, especially after GL kept insisting emps never makes it to endgame is bugs flips red.

mechanically, Icon's role is confirmed because he, again, knew WHO i targeted and WHAT i did. "well he can be a scum tracker/follower." iconeum was THE driving force behind the bugs wagon. he is not scum in this game. I've played against scum!icon. This ain't it, chief. this ain't it.

ah yes, you mean me going from saying Aaron is my strongest SR at the start of Day 2 to literally doing anything i possibly can to divert away from his lynch once he claimed?

also, if you want a crumb, i've got that too.

Unless you're suspicious of me, there's nothing we have to work out together. I think you're scum, and I'm not giving you any logic to sheep or escape accountability from. Especially when you've avoided being on both of the last two lynch wagons. And emps was on me. I want you to bus on your own. It'll be easier to hold you accountable if you don't after the fact.

Not sure why you asked about where I'm considering voting if we have nothing to work out. and you've regularly been considering scum teams that don't have me in them. but also I'm such a strong scum read you're going to shut me out? I don't really get that. I just wanted to understand why you were considering icon because I think that's crazy talk, and I think you're a town vote that we can't afford to have voting wrong.

I don't feel I have enough support to do much this game anymore, so why don't ya'll state a townblock from which to solve this game?

I'm still strong town reading you and menalque.

probably voting bji today.

I had a thought about bji + menalque and now I can't get it out of my head.

I am exhibiting symptoms of Corona so I might have to real vote if I get hospitalized. But right now I am mild.

wishing you the best. stay safe.

could you try to towncase each of us?

also, would you say that your other votes were mostly PoE then?

the tldr is that you have a lot of posts that come from a mindset that I think would be difficult to fake as scum, there are some unique lines of analysis that go deep enough to feel like true solving and not scum pushing fake reads. For Icon I always come back to the aggressive claim day 2 as something that goes against everything that makes sense for him to be doing as scum. For math slot I see the frustration expressed by UT to be town too but I think I'm less sure than the general consensus coming from not having experienced it in real time. I think math's approach to solving has been genuine whereas there's a world where he can very easily win as scum by lynching me that's he's not taking - at least directly. Bji has some posts similar to menalque that I think show strong town mindset, but not nearly as many. I was able to pick out similar posts in the scum game of his that was linked, so feeling like these aren't the strongest things to be using to case bji as town.

I can pull quotes and give a more detailed case of any of those if you'll find it helpful. it will just have to come between checking in on work responsibilities over the next couple hours

I had a thought about bji + menalque and now I can't get it out of my head.

go on

this scum team justifies me not being lynched by day 5 better than any other. rereading days 2 and 3 in the context of you and bji setting up a micc + menalque + X lylo fit together way better than I expected.

micc

if menal is the scum here, then you need to continue on this thoughts process and keep working

otherwise i will end up voting you

[Iconeum]

well shit

[Micc]

Do you think I’m Town or not icon?

You can’t be worried about where I’m voting until you’re convinced I’m Town.

[Iconeum]

I don’t understand how you can have a lack of understanding about how your results work at this stage. Or why you seem willing to vote despite that lack of understanding.

If you think there’s a world where you and I are Town you need to refute the mechanics I posted about.

How can I know what types or kinds of possible results I will get? This isn't a game where I get a list in advance that says:

'if you are roleblocked, you get type A result'
'if you are not interfered with, you get type B result'
etc

I'll check with the mod to be sure tho

I think there's a possibility we are the town here, but it's a longshot.

Try to make sense of what I failquoted, because that's literally the only track where the 2 of us win together

[Iconeum]

Do you think I’m Town or not icon?

You can’t be worried about where I’m voting until you’re convinced I’m Town.

I'm not sure.

I believe chances are higher that menal is town.

Both of you had equal amound of opportunity letting math alive to come after me tho

[Iconeum]

I think this comes down to a simple solution:

I wouldn't be alive if scum didn't have a way of dealing with my night action.
Menal got blocked night 2, while i definitely got a result.

= micc scum

------

Micc, you have been in this game for a long long while now. Do you think I can play like this as scum? Do you think I *would* play like this as scum?
By outing the friggin cop like that? By doing everything I did?

[Iconeum]

You said it yourself, this is very likely WAAAAY out of my scum range.
Menal said something about this as well.

I demand this day go down in a duel between micc and menal, and that I can

[Iconeum]

HAMMER

[Micc]

If your role PM doesn’t make those things clear it’s probably because you’re not a Combined Tracker Follower. That stuff is pretty explicitly defined in Normal games.

We can continue this conversation once you’ve chatted with the game mod. Goodnight.

[Iconeum]

If your role PM doesn’t make those things clear it’s probably because you’re not a Combined Tracker Follower. That stuff is pretty explicitly defined in Normal games.

I've talked about this extensively tho, and paraphrased to the best of my ability to show how my result looks like.

[Iconeum]

If your role PM doesn’t make those things clear it’s probably because you’re not a Combined Tracker Follower. That stuff is pretty explicitly defined in Normal games.

Ok

[Iconeum]

the only concern i have today is:

why does scum!micc choose a 3p lylo with 2 players who were pretty much locking the game in at bji+micc by the end of the previous day

over a 3p lylo with math (and ico) who was very very likely gonna vote me today

[Iconeum]

it's clear now that i would have gotten a different kind of result if i was blocked

[Iconeum]

i'll leave the implications of that up to you guys