BooneyToonz UPick: Boon There, Done That [END]

[Venus and Mars]

VOTE: fonz

Who wants to tell me why I'm choking on scum wagons and accidentally diverting to a mislynch this game?

-K

Why Fonz - other than his horrible read on me?

Yeah, in a game where you basically agree there's not obvscum and a lot of people are making sense you think that me not having had a reason to locktown you is a "terrible read." Be less egomaniacal, please.

Between you and Chk, this is completely unacceptable. I won’t repond to posts that don’t address me respectfully.

Since when does having me in your PoE=not locktowning me?

You literally accuse me of being crack and then turn around and suggest my calling you egomaniacal is disrespectful. Nancy, you consistently operate a double standard as to what is an acceptable level of abrasion, being far more rude than you will accept from anyone else toward you. The way YOU have spoken to ME throughout this game is what is completely unacceptable, not how i've reacted to it.

Having you at the back end of my POE and not locktowning you are basically the same thing, right? Because anyone who I don't have a strong desire not to lynch today is in my POE. Tbf I think you're probably just outside my POE right now, because I think I was wrong to write off Dave from consideration. Anyway I'm writing a more detailed treatment of exactly this in the catchup post I'm writing right now.

You have misinterpreted my early posts, which I’ve already explained, yet you refuse to believe me. I literally apologized more than once, when I actually have been guilty of what you’re accusing me of here. Calling your read on me “horrible”, in no way justifies that “egomaniacal” response and I won’t apologize for my reaction to it.

[Venus and Mars]

Calling a READ “horrible” /=calling a PERSON “egomaniacal”.

[Venus and Mars]

Calling a READ “horrible” /=calling a PERSON “egomaniacal”.

However Krazy does have a point, I shouldn’t continue to allow myself to be so easily baited but I think Fonz was fully aware of the reaction that word would provoke. He could have expressed a similar sentiment in a far less provocative manner, yet he chose not to. He wanted to bait me with that and he obviously gloriously succeeded.

[Venus and Mars]

I think he’s probably town, despite that bad read.

[The Fonz]

Like, I don’t understand how he got from, tr both me and Chk but would lynch me over Chk, to having me in his POE. Auro said Fonz accounted for the shift but I couldn’t find it.

@Fonz, can you link any scumgames? Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=59293 that's the only scum game since my recent return. I can dig up older meta if you like, but it's like four plus years old at the most recent so I'm not sure how useful it'll be. TL/DR is I replaced in and tunnelled Boon early because he lied about his role and relentlessly attacking people who lie about their role is kind of my thing when I'm town.

I really don't understand why you think there's an inconsistency here. Day one I call you pretty hard null over and over. That's not a scumread. The fact that I didn't want to lynch you was just that you weren't in my bottom four or five. A relevant thing about my reads that I don't think I've mentioned is that day one I kinda scumleant Titus on play, but felt like her boldness around claiming a potentially scummy-sounding role and acting like it was the most obvtown thing in the world was somewhat unlikely to come from scum. Natural psychological aversion to being burned the same way twice. That has a bearing on how I see you behaving kind of similarly.

What changes day three is a couple of things. One is the Titus thing above. The second is that the quick and dirty VCA I did in response to BTE's lacklustre at best VCA flags you up as being in kinda suspect places on both wagons. The third is a lot of other people I looked at as candidates before you started to look more town to me. Noticeably, Chronos after I iso-ed her, and Dave because of the secret cop thing. I'm now kind of buying RCE's argument about that not really being that difficult for scum to fake.

So at the beginning of the day my bottom of the playerlist in towniness probably looked something like this:

Nancy
George
RCE
___________________________
BTE
Dave
Sore Feet
Chronos


Lower players being scummier, the line probably being "Would consider for today's lynch."

Then I re-read Chronos and think her Titus interaction doesn't really look like bussing. Maybe the reason I'm not able to remember any Chronos interaction is that I don't know her, she's kind of uncharismatic, and has an Anime avatar that blurs together with some other people's, rather than that she's actually not doing anything. And someone (I can't remember who) offhand is reasonably persuasive about Dave's handling of the Secret Cop thing, so I'm like yeah, maybe that's enough to not consider him today.

So then it's like:

Chronos


Dave
George
__________________
Nancy
RCE
BTE
Sore Feet

I've quite liked what you've said recently when you're not talking about me and/or yourself, and as noted I was probably wrong to downgrade Dave as a candidate. George I go back and forth on loads. He's probably flipped between being just above and quite a bit below you almost every time I come to the thread.

At the moment I'm probably like

Nancy
____________
RCE
George
Dave
BTE
Sore Feet
faq.php?mode=bbcode
You spent some time in the "Eh, I don't think this is a particularly great lynch, it's OK I guess - if it and one of those I'm actively townreading are the two competing wagons at deadline" kind of slot currently occupied by RCE. I just don't see how having you there is "Objectively terrible." Also, calling my reads "Objectively terrible" is more offensive than calling you egomaniacal, because implying I'm stupid is a worse insult.

It's like when you accused me of saying you're terrible at scumhunting because I expect you to townread Titus. No, I think you have bias towards your friend because you know she's a good person and want to think the best of her, and that you undercompensate for that bias in games. I also think you have bias toward thinking your own opinions are less questionable than they might be to people viewing games through different prisms. I agree with chk that you being aware of your tendencies as town and scum make you able to manipulate them as scum to try to get townread.

If my read is "Objectively horrible" as you claim, which player that I'm essentially eliminating for today (chk, Conspire, Michael, JJH, Katz, and now Chronos) is objectively obviously much scummier than you? Because believe me, I'd really like to know.

[Venus and Mars]

Like, I don’t understand how he got from, tr both me and Chk but would lynch me over Chk, to having me in his POE. Auro said Fonz accounted for the shift but I couldn’t find it.

@Fonz, can you link any scumgames? Thanks.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=59293 that's the only scum game since my recent return. I can dig up older meta if you like, but it's like four plus years old at the most recent so I'm not sure how useful it'll be. TL/DR is I replaced in and tunnelled Boon early because he lied about his role and relentlessly attacking people who lie about their role is kind of my thing when I'm town.

I really don't understand why you think there's an inconsistency here. Day one I call you pretty hard null over and over. That's not a scumread. The fact that I didn't want to lynch you was just that you weren't in my bottom four or five. A relevant thing about my reads that I don't think I've mentioned is that day one I kinda scumleant Titus on play, but felt like her boldness around claiming a potentially scummy-sounding role and acting like it was the most obvtown thing in the world was somewhat unlikely to come from scum. Natural psychological aversion to being burned the same way twice. That has a bearing on how I see you behaving kind of similarly.

What changes day three is a couple of things. One is the Titus thing above. The second is that the quick and dirty VCA I did in response to BTE's lacklustre at best VCA flags you up as being in kinda suspect places on both wagons. The third is a lot of other people I looked at as candidates before you started to look more town to me. Noticeably, Chronos after I iso-ed her, and Dave because of the secret cop thing. I'm now kind of buying RCE's argument about that not really being that difficult for scum to fake.

So at the beginning of the day my bottom of the playerlist in towniness probably looked something like this:

Nancy
George
RCE
___________________________
BTE
Dave
Sore Feet
Chronos


Lower players being scummier, the line probably being "Would consider for today's lynch."

Then I re-read Chronos and think her Titus interaction doesn't really look like bussing. Maybe the reason I'm not able to remember any Chronos interaction is that I don't know her, she's kind of uncharismatic, and has an Anime avatar that blurs together with some other people's, rather than that she's actually not doing anything. And someone (I can't remember who) offhand is reasonably persuasive about Dave's handling of the Secret Cop thing, so I'm like yeah, maybe that's enough to not consider him today.

So then it's like:

Chronos


Dave
George
__________________
Nancy
RCE
BTE
Sore Feet

I've quite liked what you've said recently when you're not talking about me and/or yourself, and as noted I was probably wrong to downgrade Dave as a candidate. George I go back and forth on loads. He's probably flipped between being just above and quite a bit below you almost every time I come to the thread.

At the moment I'm probably like

Nancy
____________
RCE
George
Dave
BTE
Sore Feet
faq.php?mode=bbcode
You spent some time in the "Eh, I don't think this is a particularly great lynch, it's OK I guess - if it and one of those I'm actively townreading are the two competing wagons at deadline" kind of slot currently occupied by RCE. I just don't see how having you there is "Objectively terrible." Also, calling my reads "Objectively terrible" is more offensive than calling you egomaniacal, because implying I'm stupid is a worse insult.

It's like when you accused me of saying you're terrible at scumhunting because I expect you to townread Titus. No, I think you have bias towards your friend because you know she's a good person and want to think the best of her, and that you undercompensate for that bias in games. I also think you have bias toward thinking your own opinions are less questionable than they might be to people viewing games through different prisms. I agree with chk that you being aware of your tendencies as town and scum make you able to manipulate them as scum to try to get townread.

If my read is "Objectively horrible" as you claim, which player that I'm essentially eliminating for today (chk, Conspire, Michael, JJH, Katz, and now Chronos) is objectively obviously much scummier than you? Because believe me, I'd really like to know.

I don’t know why you’d think I’d be more likely to tr a slot based on personal feelings. You probably don’t honestly intend that to be an insult but it actually is. I don’t allow how I feel about someone personally to affect my reads. If that were even remotely true, Chk would be my top sr and as you know, he’s one of my strongest tr.

Wrt to your question, I don’t even know what answer you’re expecting, since I know I’m town and also - as I already stated on D1, to be well beyond my scumrange.

[Conspire]

I need to catch up properly, but it looks like there’s still no town cohesion and that’s :c

Who are we lynching? I’m ok with a pool of RCE/sore feet/BTE

~Esper

[Venus and Mars]

That’s why I called it a horrible read. You suggesting I tr Titus based not on my actually being competent at mafia but based on you thinking my reads are based on how I feel about people outside of the game. It was this and THIS specifically that I reacted so strongly against because that is 100% not the case and only a horrible mafia player would make reads based on how they feel about people irl.

[Venus and Mars]

I need to catch up properly, but it looks like there’s still no town cohesion and that’s :c

Who are we lynching? I’m ok with a pool of RCE/sore feet/BTE

~Esper

I hard tr BTE and strongly tl SF after their recent posts.

[Venus and Mars]

I need to catch up properly, but it looks like there’s still no town cohesion and that’s :c

Who are we lynching? I’m ok with a pool of RCE/sore feet/BTE

~Esper

I hard tr BTE and strongly tl SF after their recent posts.

Also reread Titus’ iso, she spews BTE as not a buddy.

[The Fonz]

Nancy. You claim you're objectively town. If you're so obviously town, it should be easy to name one person I have above you who is more scummy than you, from an *objective* perspective, because if it's obvious you're town

I just don't believe anyone who ever claims they're beyond their scumrange, because if they know what they're usually capable of as scum, they can deliberately act differently. I do not for one second understand what is unique about you that makes this different. The only exceptions I know are things like me getting a level of angry as town I'm incapable of faking.

[Venus and Mars]

Nancy. You claim you're objectively town. If you're so obviously town, it should be easy to name one person I have above you who is more scummy than you, from an *objective* perspective, because if it's obvious you're town

I just don't believe anyone who ever claims they're beyond their scumrange, because if they know what they're usually capable of as scum, they can deliberately act differently. I do not for one second understand what is unique about you that makes this different. The only exceptions I know are things like me getting a level of angry as town I'm incapable of faking.

How do you figure this? I should know who is scum here and if I don’t, that in your opinion, somehow makes me any less obvtown?

[Venus and Mars]

I am also not Titus and her play here has no bearing on mine. So, again, another bad argument. You should rather be asking, is this scum indicative for Nancy? and you’d find that out, if you ever took the time to metacheck me.

[chkflip]

Welcome back to the Nancy Show! Where Nancy takes pages of the game and makes it about herself in one way, shape, or another. On today's episode of the Nancy Show, we have returning guest The Fonz bringing yet another objectively factual case that Nancy is once again squiggly about like a floppy disk! Haha 90s references are fun. How will she react? Poorly. How will it further our progress? It won't! But let's see how emotional she gets this time.

Baba da dop bada
Baba da dip boo da
Bippidy boppidy boo
The Nancy Show!

(canned applause)

[The Fonz]

That’s why I called it a horrible read. You suggesting I tr Titus based not on my actually being competent at mafia but based on you thinking my reads are based on how I feel about people outside of the game. It was this and THIS specifically that I reacted so strongly against because that is 100% not the case and only a horrible mafia player would make reads based on how they feel about people irl.

You're just wrong! Literally everyone has hundreds of biases, some they're aware of, some they're not! And we try to compensate as best we can. Like, I know I'm biased toward chkflip because he's a good guy and I enjoy his company. I worry I'm biased towards Auro, just because he's nice and rational and doesn't upset me. Having these biases doesn't make you terrible, it makes you human!

And I'm probably biased against you because you stress me out to a level that is actually physically unpleasant. I got a poor night's sleep Monday night largely because of how amped up I was as a result of how you spoke to me.

I feel constantly torn between calling you out for hurting me, and knowing that you yourself are vulnerable and that your response is either that you'll internalise it and that'll hurt you, or your response will escalate and hurt me worse. I feel like you are unusually unable to distinguish between normal criticism of your play based on imperfect information, and personal attacks. It feels like everything you think is a normal part of criticising other people's play is like a red rag to a bull to me and chkflip, whilst what we think is well within the bounds of civility seems to set you off. In particular, you seem to have a high bar for how offensive you feel you are allowed to be about other people's level of skill, intelligence, or degree of empathy. You seem to have quite a low one for taking offense at anyone suggesting emotion is affecting your play. Me and Chk, the opposite.

This is why I try to read you based on your stated reads on other people, and not directly attack you until I am convinced I want to lynch you. I don't think I misinterpreted your early play. "Biting my head off" is obviously figurative, but it felt like an extremely aggressive overreaction. That was very much unacceptable to me.

[Venus and Mars]

Welcome back to the Nancy Show! Where Nancy takes pages of the game and makes it about herself in one way, shape, or another. On today's episode of the Nancy Show, we have returning guest The Fonz bringing yet another objectively factual case that Nancy is once again squiggly about like a floppy disk! Haha 90s references are fun. How will she react? Poorly. How will it further our progress? It won't! But let's see how emotional she gets this time.

Baba da dop bada
Baba da dip boo da
Bippidy boppidy boo
The Nancy Show!

(canned applause)

There is nothing remotely “factual” about any of it. You don’t know my meta and won’t bother to check it out. I’m not rehashing this again because it would be far more productive banging my head against a brick wall. You want to persist in being obtuse, have at it.

[The Fonz]

Nancy. You claim you're objectively town. If you're so obviously town, it should be easy to name one person I have above you who is more scummy than you, from an *objective* perspective, because if it's obvious you're town

I just don't believe anyone who ever claims they're beyond their scumrange, because if they know what they're usually capable of as scum, they can deliberately act differently. I do not for one second understand what is unique about you that makes this different. The only exceptions I know are things like me getting a level of angry as town I'm incapable of faking.

How do you figure this? I should know who is scum here and if I don’t, that in your opinion, somehow makes me any less obvtown?

Nancy. If it is *objective* you are town, that means it is *objective* that no more than a couple of people can be more obviously town than you. If more than half the game can reasonably be argued to be more obviously town than you, it is just plainly false that you are objectively obvtown.

It's almost as if scumminess is relative, and that if lots of other people are obvtown, I ought to be relatively wary of people who are simply playing to meta.

[chkflip]

19 hours y'all. 19 hours.

This is why I was pushy yesterday.

Y'all keep doing you though. It's clearly far more important.

Fonz <3

[chkflip]

inb4 "I aSkEd FoR aN eXtEnTiOn"

You don't deserve one. Y'all lurkfucked today. These are the consequences.

[Boonskiies]

The Sorcerer’s ABoontice!

Vote Count 3.05

Jjh927 [2]:

GeorgeBailey, BooneyToonzExpert,

GeorgeBailey [2]:

Chronos,

RCEnigma [2]:

Michael Scott, Conspire

Michael Scott [2]:

sore feet, RCEnigma

sore feet [1]:

The Fonz, Davesaz

The Fonz [1]:

Krazy Katz

Conspire [1]:

Jjh927,

Not Voting [2]:

Chkflip, Venus and Mars

With

13

alive, it takes

7

to execute.

Day 3

ends in (expired on 2020-04-09 21:00:00) on

April 9th

.

Mod Notes:

Don’t be outta pocket.

I won’t be giving an extension because there hasn’t been an extreme lack of inactivity or any replacements needing to catch up.

[chkflip]

Lmao there isn't even a leading wagon.

Get fucked.

[The Fonz]

I am also not Titus and her play here has no bearing on mine. So, again, another bad argument. You should rather be asking, is this scum indicative for Nancy? and you’d find that out, if you ever took the time to metacheck me.

More observations of people behaving in a way I previously thought was unusual coming from scum should obviously make me downgrade how townish I think that behaviour is, in general. I've also, to some degree, admitted it comes from a psychological instinct of not wanting to be burned by the same thifn twice in a game, which you're right, probably isn't 100% rational but does help explain how I feel.

Can we please talk about your view that SF should be off the table? It's both likely to be safer ground and is also, y'know, more important to the actual game whose deadline is today. I'm not really seeing what is obvtown about their claim, but I've also not been reading that carefully what with the doing 45 hours in four days thing and all, so am open to persuasion.

[Venus and Mars]

That’s why I called it a horrible read. You suggesting I tr Titus based not on my actually being competent at mafia but based on you thinking my reads are based on how I feel about people outside of the game. It was this and THIS specifically that I reacted so strongly against because that is 100% not the case and only a horrible mafia player would make reads based on how they feel about people irl.

You're just wrong! Literally everyone has hundreds of biases, some they're aware of, some they're not! And we try to compensate as best we can. Like, I know I'm biased toward chkflip because he's a good guy and I enjoy his company. I worry I'm biased towards Auro, just because he's nice and rational and doesn't upset me. Having these biases doesn't make you terrible, it makes you human!

And I'm probably biased against you because you stress me out to a level that is actually physically unpleasant. I got a poor night's sleep Monday night largely because of how amped up I was as a result of how you spoke to me.

I feel constantly torn between calling you out for hurting me, and knowing that you yourself are vulnerable and that your response is either that you'll internalise it and that'll hurt you, or your response will escalate and hurt me worse. I feel like you are unusually unable to distinguish between normal criticism of your play based on imperfect information, and personal attacks. It feels like everything you think is a normal part of criticising other people's play is like a red rag to a bull to me and chkflip, whilst what we think is well within the bounds of civility seems to set you off. In particular, you seem to have a high bar for how offensive you feel you are allowed to be about other people's level of skill, intelligence, or degree of empathy. You seem to have quite a low one for taking offense at anyone suggesting emotion is affecting your play. Me and Chk, the opposite.

This is why I try to read you based on your stated reads on other people, and not directly attack you until I am convinced I want to lynch you. I don't think I misinterpreted your early play. "Biting my head off" is obviously figurative, but it felt like an extremely aggressive overreaction. That was very much unacceptable to me.

I didn’t intentionally do that and I’ve already explained that you misinterpreted my post. All I asked and a fair question, was iirc, how is my play remotely different from TBoNTB, because I’m not seeing it.

Chk is probably driving me to drink and perhaps that’s spilling over onto you? If so, I’m sorry because I honestly do like you and think you’re a really good guy.

I really really don’t want to be fighting with you like this. Chk, I think just flat out hates me, so I won’t even bother with him.

Yes, I am super stressed and I already explained why at the beginning of the game and I think it’s cruel of Chk to be deliberately ignoring that.

I am truly sorry if I upset you and made you uncomfortable and/or hurt your feelings in any way. I legit have nothing but the highest regard for you as a human being, based off what little I know of you from playing two mafia games with you.

[Venus and Mars]

Nancy. You claim you're objectively town. If you're so obviously town, it should be easy to name one person I have above you who is more scummy than you, from an *objective* perspective, because if it's obvious you're town

I just don't believe anyone who ever claims they're beyond their scumrange, because if they know what they're usually capable of as scum, they can deliberately act differently. I do not for one second understand what is unique about you that makes this different. The only exceptions I know are things like me getting a level of angry as town I'm incapable of faking.

How do you figure this? I should know who is scum here and if I don’t, that in your opinion, somehow makes me any less obvtown?

Nancy. If it is *objective* you are town, that means it is *objective* that no more than a couple of people can be more obviously town than you. If more than half the game can reasonably be argued to be more obviously town than you, it is just plainly false that you are objectively obvtown.

It's almost as if scumminess is relative, and that if lots of other people are obvtown, I ought to be relatively wary of people who are simply playing to meta.

The only alignment I’m 100% certain of, is my own. I honestly don’t know what else you expect me to say.

[Michael Scott]

i'm out for a bit and this is what happens? oh gee