Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[Karnage]

Vote Count 1.2

fwogcarf (2) ~

JacksonVirgo, Tuxedo Mask,

Tuxedo Mask (2) ~

fwogcarf, Micc,

JacksonVirgo (1) ~

Petrichorus,

amercelo (1) ~

72offsuit,

Petrichorus (1) ~

bv310,

72offsuit (1) ~

Gypyx,

Not voting (1) ~

amercelo,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-05-04 20:18:01)

V/LA:

none

[fwogcarf]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

[fwogcarf]

how dare you steal my pageget

[Gypyx]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

[fwogcarf]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Yeah, I just like Petri's and Micc's posts right now tonally.

But yeah I also agree we need more content from everyone

[72offsuit]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

[Tuxedo Mask]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

I'm liking Gyp so far. Does this feeling of fake contributing hold over to their other posts? And would you give this the same read?

Yeah, I just like Petri's and Micc's posts right now tonally.

But yeah I also agree we need more content from everyone

[Petrichorus]

But I don't wanna tunnel on you, so if other people can start posting that'd be great. I'm very bored in quarantine.

Man, I haven't played Mafia on here in years. It's nice to see some things don't change.

VOTE: Petrichorus

Gotta spread the Day 1 love around.

Aren't wagons considered more effective to move out of RVS?

And I like Petrichorus's intro.

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

That said, it's my first game here and I'd love a run down of why you think that Wagoning is a good option day 1 here. I agree that it would draw the day to a close faster, which seems to be the point. My interpretation of your reaction was that you think others would like to expedite the first day, and that their actions to spread the vote around is counter intuitive to that end, but it does raise my suspicions that you seem to be pushing for wagoning.

That said, nice to hear some new voices and Gypyx, nice to have you around.

[Tuxedo Mask]

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

That said, it's my first game here and I'd love a run down of why you think that Wagoning is a good option day 1 here. I agree that it would draw the day to a close faster, which seems to be the point. My interpretation of your reaction was that you think others would like to expedite the first day, and that their actions to spread the vote around is counter intuitive to that end, but it does raise my suspicions that you seem to be pushing for wagoning.

First I'd like to clarify that a wagon does not equal a lynch. I am not advocating we quick lynch someone at random to end day 1. That would be bad.

For the rest of RVS into Wagon stuff, I think one of the SEs could better explain. From my minor experience and reading other games on this site, RVS going into a wagon helps spark pressure and discussion early. We can see how the targeted player or players respond to being focused and at a high vote count, we can see what players push the wagon and what players avoid it. It's not much to go on, but it's something. And could provide useful information on a reread in future days once some people have flipped.

Currently, we have a bit of stagnation, which has more to do with activity than anything but would probably help if votes weren't so spread around randomly. Especially since a few players have signaled reads without moving their votes.

[fwogcarf]

if you think no lynching on day 1 is a good idea, you're insane

[fwogcarf]

But I don't wanna tunnel on you, so if other people can start posting that'd be great. I'm very bored in quarantine.

Man, I haven't played Mafia on here in years. It's nice to see some things don't change.

VOTE: Petrichorus

Gotta spread the Day 1 love around.

Aren't wagons considered more effective to move out of RVS?

And I like Petrichorus's intro.

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

That said, it's my first game here and I'd love a run down of why you think that Wagoning is a good option day 1 here. I agree that it would draw the day to a close faster, which seems to be the point. My interpretation of your reaction was that you think others would like to expedite the first day, and that their actions to spread the vote around is counter intuitive to that end, but it does raise my suspicions that you seem to be pushing for wagoning.

That said, nice to hear some new voices and Gypyx, nice to have you around.

Imo I'm used to quicker games (36/12) so I develop reads early and wagons usually form to lynch someone for info. Think about it this way

No lynch usually means 7/2 -> 6/2 with no information other than rvs votes

Lynching someone actually gives us more info because it reveals some peoples intentions that day. You can catch scum for their votes sometimes

Lynching town means 5/2 with potential pushes off of scum motivated votes

Lynching scum means 6/1 and it can go two ways if this happens. Scum concedes, or we lynch a town for more info as to who's town and who's scum

[fwogcarf]

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

That said, it's my first game here and I'd love a run down of why you think that Wagoning is a good option day 1 here. I agree that it would draw the day to a close faster, which seems to be the point. My interpretation of your reaction was that you think others would like to expedite the first day, and that their actions to spread the vote around is counter intuitive to that end, but it does raise my suspicions that you seem to be pushing for wagoning.

First I'd like to clarify that a wagon does not equal a lynch. I am not advocating we quick lynch someone at random to end day 1. That would be bad.

For the rest of RVS into Wagon stuff, I think one of the SEs could better explain. From my minor experience and reading other games on this site, RVS going into a wagon helps spark pressure and discussion early. We can see how the targeted player or players respond to being focused and at a high vote count, we can see what players push the wagon and what players avoid it. It's not much to go on, but it's something. And could provide useful information on a reread in future days once some people have flipped.

Currently, we have a bit of stagnation, which has more to do with activity than anything but would probably help if votes weren't so spread around randomly. Especially since a few players have signaled reads without moving their votes.

this is also a good tonal explanation

[bv310]

Re-read the quote, and changing my question: BV, nice to see you back I suppose. Played any mafia elsewhere in the meantime?

Nah, I kind of fell off somewhere around 2015. Ended up back here doing a bulk password reset, then one thing led to another and here we are.

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

I do not like the posts from either person involved in this conversation. Flipping your vote on to the person who's voting for you is sketchy in general, especially here where it's just "gut" with a flimsy excuse. Also, Read lists with no content are bad. They provide Mafia with a ton of information on how they're doing, with very little actionable information.

For the rest of RVS into Wagon stuff, I think one of the SEs could better explain. From my minor experience and reading other games on this site, RVS going into a wagon helps spark pressure and discussion early. We can see how the targeted player or players respond to being focused and at a high vote count, we can see what players push the wagon and what players avoid it. It's not much to go on, but it's something. And could provide useful information on a reread in future days once some people have flipped.

So short version you're right. Basically, every hidden role game like this relies on early game being messy and pointless until someone commits to a line of thought. This is even more pronounced in forum-Mafia play, since you can't really catch someone tripping over their words, or any of the other normal tells that a person might show when they're nervous. RVS enables that by getting some early reactions and discussion, which can get the ball rolling.

[Gypyx]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

Well of course yeah i don't expect someone to have super develloped reads by page 3, but the fact that he just put himself on the same level of towniness as micc / petri bothered me, and therefore i asked him more details

[Gypyx]

Also, what is a SEs?

[Gypyx]

(nvm figured it out)

[JacksonVirgo]

Won't be active for around 12-15 hours

[Petrichorus]

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

[Micc]

Could you explain how this is indicative of Tuxedo's alignement, all i see there is just that you show some fairly weak logic

I don't think the weak logic that lead to Tuxedo's vote is strictly scum indicative, it could go both ways. The baseline here is that Tuxedo is someone looking to get right into the game and not mess around with all the jokes and stuff. This is a theory opinion not related to his alignment. As scum he wants to play according to that theory belief, and get out pushing a wagon right away. Its real easy for scum in that position to find themselves pushing a bad logic case at that point because they're forcing themselves to come up with an unnaturally quick read. I think that's what has happened.

On the other hand its possible that town Tuxedo is so focused on pushing to the real part of the game he's willing to push literally anything. That's a perfectly reasonable town mindset, and actually a decent description of me in this game. If my exchange with Tuxedo had transitioned to a point where he was bringing this up on his own I would see that as town indicative, but that hasn't really been the case.

[Micc]

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to

gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples

) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Can you try to describe how these two things are different from each other and how you tell them apart?

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

In day 1 especially, but just generally the game revolves around that credible threat of hammering, or pressure. It starts with the town being incentivized to lynch on day 1. fwogcarf's post 85 is a good start to mathematically showing why that is the case. If you have any doubt as to why we are lynching someone today let me know and I can expand. Knowing that someone will be lynched means that these wagons can be built and pressure can be put on players for different things. Attempting to read how people react to these pressures is probably the fundamental concept of forum mafia.

At the end of the day, wagoning is good and necessary - just don't hammer people without giving them a reasonable chance to claim if they are PR.

[fwogcarf]

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Two things wrong here.

1. Almost ALWAYS people in their reads will list themselves as town if they include themselves. Why would you put yourself as null or scum? It wouldn't make any sense.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

[Tuxedo Mask]

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Let's talk about this. What makes Fwog listing himself as town so suspicious, especially if you admit everyone will say they're town? If it's suspicious for 72 to defend him, why is it not suspicious for Micc? If it is 72 that is being suspicious why is your vote on Fwogcarf?

[fwogcarf]

is tuxedo on an agenda or smtn

[Tuxedo Mask]

Could you explain?

[Gypyx]

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to

gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples

) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

Can you try to describe how these two things are different from each other and how you tell them apart?

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

In day 1 especially, but just generally the game revolves around that credible threat of hammering, or pressure. It starts with the town being incentivized to lynch on day 1. fwogcarf's post 85 is a good start to mathematically showing why that is the case. If you have any doubt as to why we are lynching someone today let me know and I can expand. Knowing that someone will be lynched means that these wagons can be built and pressure can be put on players for different things. Attempting to read how people react to these pressures is probably the fundamental concept of forum mafia.

At the end of the day, wagoning is good and necessary - just don't hammer people without giving them a reasonable chance to claim if they are PR.

well, the difference lies (in my opinion) in the speed of a accusation, i feel like scum wants to make some quick accusation / assumption while even if gamesolving relies on accusations too, it's usually more cautious than what you did

but in post #93 you provided a good reason for that agressivity of yours, so i guess that point no longer stands