Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[Gypyx]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

[Micc]

well, the difference lies (in my opinion) in the speed of a accusation, i feel like scum wants to make some quick accusation / assumption while even if gamesolving relies on accusations too, it's usually more cautious than what you did

but in post #93 you provided a good reason for that agressivity of yours, so i guess that point no longer stands

Which way would you classify your previously stated suspicion of me based on this criteria?

well, i already explained, your accusation was quick and not based on very much material and the accusation martial itself wasn't really convincing, therefore i found that quite suspicious, but as I said, I no longer find that suspicious

I get that, but I’m turning the tables and asking you to judge yourself. Weren’t you pretty quick to judge me on a small amount of criteria?

[Gypyx]

well I get what you're saying, but you went up to voting tuxedo, while I was just making a point about the way you behaved, I don't think you can really compare those 2

[Petrichorus]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

if that's actual scum defending scum then ladies and gentlemen the worst scum team in the history of mafia.

im actually wondering now if 72 is trying to pocket me

Please define 'pocket' in this context. I think I have an idea but I'd rather know for sure. Regarding scum v scum, I agree it would be a grave mistake to make such a rash what-aboutism, but that does not entirely vindicate fwog.

Either way, as discussed, with no more content coming from 72, VOTE: 72offsuit

[Micc]

well I get what you're saying, but you went up to voting tuxedo, while I was just making a point about the way you behaved, I don't think you can really compare those 2

Right, you made a point about how I behaved and said you’d wait to see more from me. Do you believe that’s how game solving works? Sit around waiting for stuff to happen, comment on it, and hope people care enough to notice?

Don’t you think maybe you could have gotten an even better read on me by voting me for this to see how I react? Or asking me to explain what I was doing? Or asking someone else what they thought about your observation?

[Gypyx]

well, the way i originally pointed out that fact was by metionning it to fwog hen he said that he was townreading you (without saying any other details)

and secondly, i also initiated some interaction with you in post #72, so idk how I am not "asking you to explain what you were doing"

[fwogcarf]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

if that's actual scum defending scum then ladies and gentlemen the worst scum team in the history of mafia.

im actually wondering now if 72 is trying to pocket me

Please define 'pocket' in this context. I think I have an idea but I'd rather know for sure. Regarding scum v scum, I agree it would be a grave mistake to make such a rash what-aboutism, but that does not entirely vindicate fwog.

Either way, as discussed, with no more content coming from 72, VOTE: 72offsuit

Pocketing is when a member of the scum team buddies up with a town member. They do this in several ways.
1. Constantly townreading them (sometimes silently, sometimes they're open about it)
2. Defending them when that person needs defending (Although half of the time that person doesn't need "defending")
3. Agreeing with most of their content.

It's a strategy that usually doesn't work because I've played with a lot of people who spot pocketing very easily.

[fwogcarf]

Micc/gypyx is never W/W. I don't see the scumteam getting into an argument over judgement with the way they've been talking.

[JacksonVirgo]

Really sorry about inactivity here

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler: Evidence On Petrichorus

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Here directly calls Fwog listing himself as town suspicious.

Personally I feel that listing yourself in any reads if it is just generic alignment is redundant, but if that's the rough convention on here then so be it. I don't find that in itself suspicious, apologies if I was not clear enough before.

Immediately contradicts here

See above regarding listing and suspicions. My suspicions were peaked according to how I would usually think during a meat space game vis a vis this scenario.

To contract the events that have interested me:

Fwog - Reads Micc as town,
Gyp - Queries Fwog's Reading - highlighting Micc
72 - Immediately votes Gyp

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.


72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

well tbf, even if he isn't directly defending you, 72's post made the focus shift on another person, so the end result is the same as if he defended you

Couldn't have said it better myself.

Sheeping

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

Acknowledges their sheeping, and generally comes off very self-conscious about how they're viewed. Continues to soft push 72, without developing their read or questioning them.

Either way, as discussed, with no more content coming from 72, VOTE: 72offsuit

Finally, votes 72 for inactivity?

@Petrichorus how much experince do you have with forum mafia?

All in all, Petrichorus seems to be following whatever wagons look the easiest, and generally tries to slip by unnoticed. When their actions are called out they immediately backtrack, and look for a new angle. They also have a habit of being extremely nice and friendly (yay for non-toxic games) it's not really alignment idictive but it always tends to make me wary, especially combined with a player who seems preoccupied with how other players view them.

Aside from Petrichorus, on the 72 defends Fwog stuff. It all seems really reliant on associative reads. And being six pages into day one, I don't like that.

[Petrichorus]

Hi Tuxedo,

Regarding experience on Forum Mafia: I have taken part in two custom mafia games on forums set up by an old LARP group about 5 years ago. In Meat Space I play and usually run games of Mafia as often as possible, before all this probably a few sessions every fortnight.

I always present as amicable no matter which medium I am connecting on. There's no reason to be anything other as far as I see it.

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.


72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it

wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def

. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Regarding the 'contradiction' I say immediately in this statement that in itself self listing isn't by itself 'so odd'. As such the sentence prior should instead have read "Fwog listing himself as town and being defended by 72 is suspicious" or "Fwog listing himself as town is mildly suspicious and being defended by 72 is moreso". As discussed later, a counter-wagon is still potentially a form of defense, whether meant that way or not. The contradiction discussed is a matter of minced words as far as I see it, but read it how you will. I did however make a mistake as discussed previously in that Gyp was marking Micc's attitude as suspicious where as I mis-read it as Gyp picking up on Fwog. I identified this mistake in post 111. Noting this mistake, my opinion did shift slightly as it relates to the interaction and I feel I have made this clear in following posts.

To note of 'new angles', my suspicions are still present regarding the same event, but my focus, I think rightfully so is now on 72o. The counter-wagon and following idleness don't sit well with me. I'd like to discuss with them why in their view gyp's post was 'rubbing them the wrong way' but until they return, I cannot.

If there's anything else Tuxedo, let me know.

In addition, JV, when you have some time, if you could talk about your experience with 72 in other games, that would be greatly appreciated.

[LuckyLuciano]

Petri, can you respond to this, you seem to have missed it earlier.

Further, I don't see how we get from

In post 82, Petrichorus wrote:
Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

In post 92, Petrichorus wrote:
VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

In post 111, Petrichorus wrote:
I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

[LuckyLuciano]

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

Does this mean you townread Micc and Tuxedo?

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

If I'm understanding you correctly, you find reason to suspect fwog's early posts. Do you believe that 97 is sufficient to outweigh those concerns? From my perspective fwog's explanation of why a D1 lynch is good for town is NAI. He's providing information, not making reads there.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded,

but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices,

so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

Why does this matter?

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't like his entrance, completely ignoring the interaction (44, 45). He proceeds to provide non-content (53). I like the stance taken in 80, but I find it hard not to apply his logic to himself as well. In other words, I think that he is giving off the same vibe that he's scumreading Gypyx for. Now this might sound weird, so feel free to ask me to clarify if I don't make sense, but it's because I think 72o's read is weak and misguided that I find reason to believe 72o is town for making the read. Scum tend to be more deliberate and careful in their play. This post reads to me as someone who genuinely believes that posting things just to post them is scum-indicative, yet doesn't realize that up to this point he's done the same thing. That sort of carelessness reads as town in my experience.

and how would the fact that 72 kinda "defended" Fwog fit in that view that 72 is playing carelessely? (welcome btw)

If you are trying to say that 72o is deliberately pivoting the focus from fwog to you, and that means his play isn't careless, I'm not seeing it. His reasoning for suspecting you equally applies to himself. That's careless play. We can talk all day about whether he was trying to distract town from fwog, but I think that's a highly associative read and those reads work better after we have flips. Prior to knowing either his or fwog's alignment, you're just speculating and stirring up suspicion.

[LuckyLuciano]

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

This is really good.

[LuckyLuciano]

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

Okay, when you say that you received responses regarding self-listing in spades I find it hard to understand what you mean when you say,

To note of 'new angles', my suspicions are still present regarding the same event, but my focus, I think rightfully so is now on 72o.

So you were suspicious of the self-listing, and you received responses regarding self-listing in spades, but your suspicions are still present. So let's talk about the responses you have received and how they have influenced your read on fwog. If they give you reason to further suspect fwog, then why is he not the best place for you to focus? If they give you reason to suspect fwog less, then why are you still suspicious about the self-listing?

[LuckyLuciano]

Tbh, the more I look at Petri, the more I think Tux is spot-on.

All in all,

Petrichorus seems to be following whatever wagons look the easiest

, and generally tries to slip by unnoticed.

When their actions are called out they immediately backtrack

, and look for a new angle. They also have a habit of being extremely nice and friendly (yay for non-toxic games) it's not really alignment idictive but it always tends to make me wary, especially combined with

a player who seems preoccupied with how other players view them.

[Petrichorus]

Petri, can you respond to this, you seem to have missed it earlier.

Further, I don't see how we get from

In post 82, Petrichorus wrote:
Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

In post 92, Petrichorus wrote:
VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

In post 111, Petrichorus wrote:
I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

My post was conjecture and I thought that posts 83 and 85 were compelling arguments. The answer to your question is that I changed my conclusion. I'll address the other points in the morning on my PC. Till then I bid you all a fine night/day in Meat Space.

[Micc]

well, the way i originally pointed out that fact was by metionning it to fwog hen he said that he was townreading you (without saying any other details)

and secondly, i also initiated some interaction with you in post #72, so idk how I am not "asking you to explain what you were doing"

yeah ok that's fair. What's your strongest read in any direction?

we are pogging

what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.


VOTE: Petrichorus
I'm in agreement that this is a good direction. I have fwog, Gypyz, tuxedo, and luckyLuciano on the probably not lynching today list, but that's contingent on me putting a little more work into actually think about things probably tomorrow

[fwogcarf]

Tbh, the more I look at Petri, the more I think Tux is spot-on.

All in all,

Petrichorus seems to be following whatever wagons look the easiest

, and generally tries to slip by unnoticed.

When their actions are called out they immediately backtrack

, and look for a new angle. They also have a habit of being extremely nice and friendly (yay for non-toxic games) it's not really alignment idictive but it always tends to make me wary, especially combined with

a player who seems preoccupied with how other players view them.

Hmmm

Will refer back to this if Tux is scum

[fwogcarf]

we are pogging

what's your take on JV not being here since you have meta with him? He's solidly in my lynch pool right now.

I have scumread Jackson more times than I have fingers and toes. He does things as town that I would never see anybody!town doing in a game. He's fakeclaimed a ton, most of it resulting in complete failure. I think I only played one scum game with him (don't remember the exact details), and I believe he was much more solvy in that game.

I'll let you know on how his content looks if he posts it later on and full-on meta read him later

Him saying he's inactive is probably NAI.

Spoiler:

Hopefully the quote format doesn't mess up

[72offsuit]

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

I'm liking Gyp so far. Does this feeling of fake contributing hold over to their other posts? And would you give this the same read?

Yeah, I just like Petri's and Micc's posts right now tonally.

But yeah I also agree we need more content from everyone

1. What are you liking so far about gyp?

2. No, he only had 4 short NAI posts to that stage

[72offsuit]

Thank you for the delightful praise. Looking at the balancing in this game, I'm wary of bringing down the hammer on Day 1. Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour as the best that town will get is that a scum calls basic townie as it is statistically hard to disprove. The best outcome for scum is that a role gets called and is then a target, especially being as it is not in town's interest for their powered folk to either lie or call.

Why are you assuming the wagon is on town? The wagonee could be scum

[72offsuit]

Re-read the quote, and changing my question: BV, nice to see you back I suppose. Played any mafia elsewhere in the meantime?

Nah, I kind of fell off somewhere around 2015. Ended up back here doing a bulk password reset, then one thing led to another and here we are.

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

I do not like the posts from either person involved in this conversation. Flipping your vote on to the person who's voting for you is sketchy in general, especially here where it's just "gut" with a flimsy excuse. Also, Read lists with no content are bad. They provide Mafia with a ton of information on how they're doing, with very little actionable information.

For the rest of RVS into Wagon stuff, I think one of the SEs could better explain. From my minor experience and reading other games on this site, RVS going into a wagon helps spark pressure and discussion early. We can see how the targeted player or players respond to being focused and at a high vote count, we can see what players push the wagon and what players avoid it. It's not much to go on, but it's something. And could provide useful information on a reread in future days once some people have flipped.

So short version you're right. Basically, every hidden role game like this relies on early game being messy and pointless until someone commits to a line of thought. This is even more pronounced in forum-Mafia play, since you can't really catch someone tripping over their words, or any of the other normal tells that a person might show when they're nervous. RVS enables that by getting some early reactions and discussion, which can get the ball rolling.

It's not just gut alone. I explained my read, however weak it was.
My intention was to move us out of RVs with a read, however weak.
Had the same vibe on the overall game-state as TM, the game felt like it wasn't progressing much at all.

[72offsuit]

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Explain why you find self-listing as town suspicious.