Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[Gypyx]

(gonna read through petri's ISO now, brb)

[Karnage]

Vote Count 1.5

Petrichorus (2) ~

Tuxedo Mask, Micc,

72offsuit (2) ~

Gypyx, Petrichorus,

fwogcarf (2) ~

JacksonVirgo, bv310,

Gypyx (1) ~

72offsuit,

Not voting (2) ~

LuckyLuciano, fwogcarf,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-05-04 20:18:01)

V/LA:

none

[Gypyx]

My general thoughts on Petri is that he focuses way too hard on being friendly with others / his reads and way of playing don't make me feel like he wants to find scum

Tuxedo, in my book, ask as many questions as you feel pertinent. I'm not aware of conventions here but trying to lead the conversation is a pretty sweet gig if you're scum unless there's precedence from someone's playstyle.
Regarding quarantine, i hope we all stay safe and sane.

2. 72 wasn't defending me in that post, more he was actually focusing on the post content that was provided there. Gyp had stated that "fwog/petri/micc are on the same level of townreads as you?" Now whether or not he forgot that I posted that remains to be seen, but I do agree with his logic there.

well tbf, even if he isn't directly defending you, 72's post made the focus shift on another person, so the end result is the same as if he defended you

Couldn't have said it better myself.

- So there, petri quotes a whole message just to say that he agrees with me, of course I know that his playstyle is naturally firendly, but I find it to be kinda over the board

Hi Luciano, a pleasure. So let's address these one at a time:

1 - Post 54 - I think town has a decent chance being as there seems to be a genuine passion for investigation that I rarely see day one in Meat Space. I have come to this conclusion from the challenges such as Micc's post 30 and 37 (Apologies for not hyperlinking these, can someone throw me the coding?) and also Tuxedo's post 81. Just a couple of examples.

2 - Fwog has been forthcoming with content but only since post 85. Prior to that I'm not a fan of the tone of most if not all of their posts as it portends to helping town. As such my initial read was scum defending scum. It was waylaid a little by their response to my vote but post 97 seems to be an interesting way to instigate discussion. 72 hasn't given much other content and has not responded to my query and as such it's harder to pin him down. It's difficult to know if that is by design or through external factors.

3 - Regarding the vote for 72, I thought about this before just unvoting. I don't like to swing my vote around and while fwog had already been pressed on his read, I wasn't entirely satisfied with their response, thus the added pressure. At this point I might as well add a vote to 72 as he hasn't responded, but that will affect my appearance as kowtowing to loud voices, so I think if by midday tomorrow if he hasn't responded that will be way over 24 hours since last contributions and I'll happily throw that vote out.

If there's anything else you would like to press me on, go ahead,

- openly stating that he doesn't want to vote on 72 for reasons that I don't really get (i don't know the term "kowtowing") but it feels to me that he's just hoping that someone else will get the wagon rolling for him, in order to avoid suspicion

Petri, can you respond to this, you seem to have missed it earlier.

Further, I don't see how we get from

In post 82, Petrichorus wrote:
Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

In post 92, Petrichorus wrote:
VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

In post 111, Petrichorus wrote:
I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

My post was conjecture and I thought that posts 83 and 85 were compelling arguments. The answer to your question is that I changed my conclusion. I'll address the other points in the morning on my PC. Till then I bid you all a fine night/day in Meat Space.

- so there, Petri states that his opinion changed, but it feels like there wasn't much needed to make him change his mind, as if he wanted to avoid getting unwanted attention for his opinions on the game

in conclusion, i'd like to see what gets out of Petri if there's more pressure on him
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Petrichorus

[Tuxedo Mask]

Kowtow means to be subservient, bending to whims of others. I just found out it comes from Mandarin Chinese and is deep head to the ground bow, to show the utmost respect.

Also, this may be a nitpick but he doesn't say he doesn't want to kowtow, but that he doesn't want to appear to be kowtowing. Which seems interesting.

[72offsuit]

72's UVC - Unofficial Vote Count:

Petrichorus is at L-2.

Petrichorus (3) ~ Tuxedo Mask, Micc, Gypyx

72offsuit (1) ~ Petrichorus

fwogcarf (2) ~ JacksonVirgo, bv310,

Gypyx (1) ~ 72offsuit,

Not voting (2) ~ LuckyLuciano, fwogcarf,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: 5 days, 7 hours, 5 minutes

[72offsuit]

@Gyp: If $1,000,000 bucks was on the line, up for the taking, and all you had to was to choose a solve right here and now, who would you say are the 2 scum?

[72offsuit]

Kowtow means to be subservient, bending to whims of others. I just found out it comes from Mandarin Chinese and is deep head to the ground bow, to show the utmost respect.

Also, this may be a nitpick but he doesn't say he doesn't want to kowtow, but that he doesn't want to appear to be kowtowing. Which seems interesting.

When you say its intersting, what alignment-tell / conclusion do you draw from this?

[Petrichorus]

My general thoughts on Petri is that he focuses way too hard on being friendly with others / his reads and way of playing don't make me feel like he wants to find scum

Petri, can you respond to this, you seem to have missed it earlier.

Further, I don't see how we get from

In post 82, Petrichorus wrote:
Wagoning to threaten a hammer and then glean information seems to be in the Scum's favour

to

In post 92, Petrichorus wrote:
VOTE: Fwogcarf

to

In post 111, Petrichorus wrote:
I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades.

How does one, as town and in good faith, conclude that wagoning to generate content is pro-scum, and then proceed to use a wagon to generate content?

My post was conjecture and I thought that posts 83 and 85 were compelling arguments. The answer to your question is that I changed my conclusion. I'll address the other points in the morning on my PC. Till then I bid you all a fine night/day in Meat Space.

- so there, Petri states that his opinion changed, but it feels like there wasn't much needed to make him change his mind, as if he wanted to avoid getting unwanted attention for his opinions on the game

in conclusion, i'd like to see what gets out of Petri if there's more pressure on him
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Petrichorus

If I wanted to avoid unwanted attention on my opinions, would I not simply minimise or not post them to the lengths that I have? The more I post, the more there is to analyse. Everyone chipping in on this is good for the town as it helps build reads, thus the lengths I go to to describe my process. Regarding my opinion changing, I am being truthful in that I did find 83 and 85 compelling enough to change my mind.

@Gyp: If $1,000,000 bucks was on the line, up for the taking, and all you had to was to choose a solve right here and now, who would you say are the 2 scum?

I'm aware that this question was directed at Gyp but I want to throw it wider. For me, it's Fwog and 72o.

@72offsuit, with the exception of your 'gut read' on Gyp, you haven't posted any other content that I can see that gives any other read. You've asked plenty of people for their reads, but given no others from yourself. You say your gut read was to move us away from RVS but you've taken no other steps since your return to continue that momentum. As such, I would like to know whether your read on Gyp has changed and if not, who else do you read as Scum.

@Fwog, regarding your earlier conjecture that 72 might be trying to pocket you, how has your opinion on this changed? Personally he doesn't seem to have interacted with you since. It's an interesting situation and not a play that I would have thought that an informed minority would do from 72's side, but your response to call pocket is probably the move I'd make if i was scum being defended by scum. I'd also like to know, after reading through the game, what are your strongest reads?

[LuckyLuciano]

First things first, UNVOTE: Petri. Karnage missed my vote, he's at L-1, this put him at L-2. I don't want an accidental hammer coming down, but I am still in favor of Petri pressure.

[LuckyLuciano]

well, i'm kind of strugguling to gather my thoughts on Petri right now, but i'll try

Disappearing here is sus.

[LuckyLuciano]

Fair. At what point do you feel that it is justified to pressure inactives simply to prevent mafia from lurking?

well, i'd say that once we're halfway through D1 huge lack of activity without asking from replacement / providing good reasons for that lack of activity is a red flag

So what is your take on a slot that was inactive, stated a reason for inactivity, then asked to replace out.

Scumlean? Townlean?

You should never take replacing out as AI.

[LuckyLuciano]

Regarding the last point, are you asking if my appearance to follow louder voices matters? If so, then yes, in that it has been a point of suspicion.

As an insight into me, in Meat Space, myself and several compatriots share effectively the reasoning behind statements and behaviour.

Could you elaborate? I'm not sure what you are trying to say.

[LuckyLuciano]

I did want to see if there would be more content to read before building that wagon. There wasn't and so I did.

I still stick by that if I had immediately switched to wagoning 72 I would have been pulled up on flipping.

As it is I've been pulled up on inconsistency, which may indeed be worse. That's the reasoning behind it. Was it a poor decision? Probably.

This implies you know that 72o is town.

[Micc]

VOTE: bv310

Big scum pings from this. for one it's not really a catchup. second, unvoting a scum lean is a move reserved for moving yourself from a small wagon you believe in to a bigger wagon you believe in. bv310's vote change here goes in the opposite direction which is not productive at all.

Spoiler:

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now. I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before. Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice. Third i think this is a strong misrepresentation of fwog's posting so far, and not a good reason to be voting him.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

Oh right, also VOTE: fwogcarf, because I forgot to include it in the last post.

[LuckyLuciano]

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now.

I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before.

Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

You never gave a read on Petri. You RVS voted him, stated you disliked Gypyx and 72o, then disappeared. Literally nowhere in your ISO do you mention Petri outside of the RVS vote. Have you been following the thread without posting? When did the Petri read develop? When did it degrade?

pedit: Amen Micc. I love that we're on the same page here.

[LuckyLuciano]

Ngl, I've been waiting for somebody to defend Petri. Part of me wondered if in the case that Petri is scum, his partner would be within the inactives. bv310's post feels like a casual redirection from Petri to fwog. Do you agree?

[LuckyLuciano]

I'm still suspicious AF of Petri. Especially because of 212. I want to work on sorting bv310 and JV's replacement, and then I think it's a good time to decide a lynch and move on to D2.

[Micc]

Somehow lost the tail end of my post. Tack this on to the end:

Third, I think the explanation given is a misrepresentation of fwog's play thusfar, and that its not a good reason to be voting there. This feels a lot like scum trying to interject themselves into a game that they feel lost in. The questions addressed at fwog don't even feel particularly useful in the sense of putting pressure on fwog. I can understand asking about reads as a method for creating interaction, but that's something you do with people you're town reading, not someone who you presumably are trying to pressure.

Ngl, I've been waiting for somebody to defend Petri. Part of me wondered if in the case that Petri is scum, his partner would be within the inactives. bv310's post feels like a casual redirection from Petri to fwog. Do you agree?

yeah that would be something to keep in mind as we move forward. I'm not one to look for associative tells without a flip, but your logic makes sense.

[LuckyLuciano]

I agree on associative tells. If I remember correctly, I've said as much already. I think it's still possible to catch the "feel" of a wagon, something has felt off for me so far.

[LuckyLuciano]

Also,

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

What thoughts are you looking for? I don't see in my iso where this happened.

[Micc]

First things first, UNVOTE: Petri. Karnage missed my vote, he's at L-1, this put him at L-2. I don't want an accidental hammer coming down, but I am still in favor of Petri pressure.

If you want pressure, isn't vulnerable to being hammered at any time exactly where you want Petrichorus?

[LuckyLuciano]

I don't want players to follow the VC and also vote for pressure, accidentally hammering. I don't think creating a situation where a lolhammer is simultaneously likely and easily explainable is good for town.

[LuckyLuciano]

For example, if Gypyx voted prior to bv unvoting, that would have been a hammer.

[Micc]

I get that the VC being incorrect is a special circumstance to be careful around. But if you make a post that clearly shows Weber’s the wagon is you’ve removed that source of confusion. Leaves you the opportunity to keep your scum read where you want them at L-1.

At some point you have to trust people to not derp hammer. Wagons that never get anywhere near a real lynch aren’t actually generating pressure.

[LuckyLuciano]

I think you meant where, not Weber. Anyhoo, I feel that there is value to be had in sorting BV and letting JV's replacement come in and give their thoughts. I don't know why you presume I'm not willing to revote Petri if he comes back and doesn't satisfy my concerns. I'm not sure what you are trying to get at here. Are you trying to make a claim towards BPP, or do you have a problem with me unvoting here?