Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[Karnage]

Vote Count 1.6

Petrichorus (2) ~

Tuxedo Mask, Gypyx,

fwogcarf (2) ~

enomis, bv310,

72offsuit (1) ~

Petrichorus,

Gypyx (1) ~

72offsuit,

bv310 (1) ~

Micc,

Not voting (2) ~

LuckyLuciano, fwogcarf,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-05-04 20:18:01)

V/LA:

none

[fwogcarf]

Hello Guys, Pleased to join this game. Will read through the thread and post soon.

It's been a while since my last game so super excited to be in this game.

aight bet

[LuckyLuciano]

@fwog, did you ever find what you were looking for in 239?

[enomis]

Hey guys, skimmed through the threads and make some notes.

Town:
Tuxedo seems town to me.[The part where he talks about quarantine being the reason why he tries to skim the thread very often to try to inspect people]
Fwog can be town for now as i grouped some of his interactions with tuxedo,gypsy and 72 as not scumxscum interaction.

Scummy:
BV,Petri

Abit Scummy:
72

Rest not much read.

[enomis]

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now. I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before. Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

Agreed with Micc that this looks scummy.
VOTE: BV

[Tuxedo Mask]

Spoiler: 1

Hi Tuxedo,

Regarding experience on Forum Mafia: I have taken part in two custom mafia games on forums set up by an old LARP group about 5 years ago. In Meat Space I play and usually run games of Mafia as often as possible, before all this probably a few sessions every fortnight.

I always present as amicable no matter which medium I am connecting on. There's no reason to be anything other as far as I see it.

This sounds right, they're holding themselves well.

Spoiler: 2

I was voting for Fwog to put him at L-2 (Apologies if the formatting is incorrect) to see if there was more to the read and also to get a strong reaction regarding listing yourself as town, which i have got in spades. As such, shifting a vote to 72 to query this "Gut feeling" seems logical. I'd like to query 72 first however.


72offsuit, this is a strong reaction to a small query. Is this your playstyle or is there something in particular that you object to in the above?

JV, has 72's playstyle matched or differed from the two games you've played with them?

UNVOTE: fwogcarf

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

In this context does 'in spades' not mean you got what you wanted, an 'immediate success'? If not, what do you mean by that? What would a strong reaction to listing yourself as town be? Would you expect scum Fwog to change his stance on self-voting if questioned? Did you think a vote really helped explain things, if it's just a site to site/player to player difference, would just asking not accomplish the same task?

Spoiler: 3

To address wagoning. I suppose there is still some value in it as long as there is a credible threat of hammering behind it, so to that end nothing is off the table.

To pick up on something Gyp addresses above, Fwog listing himself as town is suspicious and being defended by 72 is also suspicious. so VOTE: Fwogcarf

Fwog, I haven't played with you before, and it

wouldn't be so odd if 72 hadn't come to def

. I mean, everyone will outwardly say they're town, but you were asked for your read on other players and read yourself. That said, I'm glad you've done some soul-searching and introspection.

Regarding the 'contradiction' I say immediately in this statement that in itself self listing isn't by itself 'so odd'. As such the sentence prior should instead have read "Fwog listing himself as town and being defended by 72 is suspicious" or "Fwog listing himself as town is mildly suspicious and being defended by 72 is moreso". As discussed later, a counter-wagon is still potentially a form of defense, whether meant that way or not. The contradiction discussed is a matter of minced words as far as I see it, but read it how you will. I did however make a mistake as discussed previously in that Gyp was marking Micc's attitude as suspicious where as I mis-read it as Gyp picking up on Fwog. I identified this mistake in post 111. Noting this mistake, my opinion did shift slightly as it relates to the interaction and I feel I have made this clear in following posts.

To note of 'new angles', my suspicions are still present regarding the same event, but my focus, I think rightfully so is now on 72o. The counter-wagon and following idleness don't sit well with me. I'd like to discuss with them why in their view gyp's post was 'rubbing them the wrong way' but until they return, I cannot.

If there's anything else Tuxedo, let me know.

In addition, JV, when you have some time, if you could talk about your experience with 72 in other games, that would be greatly appreciated.

Personally I feel that listing yourself in any reads if it is just generic alignment is redundant, but if that's the rough convention on here then so be it. I don't find that in itself suspicious, apologies if I was not clear enough before.

So is it suspicious or not? There is a world of difference between something being null and being even the slightest most minorly suspicious.
Furthermore, there is a world of difference between defending a suspcious action, and a non-suspicious action. Do you agree?

Spoiler: Last Thing

Hi there, doing good, what are your current reads on the game?

town: fwogcarf, petrichorus, micc

null: everyone else

So, fwog / petri / micc are on the same level on townreads for you?

And personally, i don't really like micc's attitude in his post (i'm feeling like he isn't trying to gamesolve but rather cast some suspicion easily on peoples) but i'm waiting to see more content from him

This post is rubbing me the wrong way.
It reads to me like an awkward post from scum who don't know what to post, but feel like they need to post something that appears to be like contributing.
I don;t think its genuine to expect a layered townleans/reads order by page 3.

Non-RVS vote based on gut:

VOTE: Gyp

By your own reasons for voting Fwog and now 72, does it not look like you're doing the same? Defending the actions of Gyp by voting the people disagreeing with him?

[fwogcarf]

@fwog, did you ever find what you were looking for in 239?

No

Tunnel mode is sadly not happening

[fwogcarf]

Alright, catch-up time!

First off, UNVOTE: for now. I'm not as sold on my Petrichorus read as I was before. Still scum-leaning, but they're putting a lot of effort in to answering questions which is nice.

My current point of interest is actually Fwogcarf now.

One of my favourite early game strategies is to look at people in ISO to look for lots of posting without content. Right now, most people have provided information-gathering, answered larger questions, given opinions, that kind of thing. The only people excluded are Fwog, JV, and myself, and JV has decided to replace out. To me, that leaves one good option for digging in to. Fwog, your vote is currently parked on Mask. Do you still think he's a good choice for voting? Why/Why Not? If you were voting elsewhere, who would be a reasonable option in your opinion?

Also, Lucky, still waiting on your thoughts from yesterday morning. You said you needed time to gather your thoughts, and then never came back.

Agreed with Micc that this looks scummy.
VOTE: BV

Any other reason on this or are you straight sheeping

[fwogcarf]

Once i get time, I'll provide thoughts on the game overall

maybe even solve the game lol

[Micc]

nothing wrong with sheeping a slam duck case imo. we could do with more votes on bv310.

That, or the people who want to wagon Petrichorus need to get together and make a real wagon. They should probably state a more concise case too, because I'm really not following what they're seeing at this point.

also fwog, you are long past due to put that vote into play so yeah thoughts and a vote would be good

[enomis]

@fwog, not much other reasons at this point. Don't remember much of BV's other posts.

@Micc, You seem super confirmed on BV being scum. Would that be true? If so why?

[Micc]

I can only think of a single time I was 'super confirmed' on someone being scum day 1, and this isn't it. That said, I do think bv310 is far and away the best lynch right now because I see almost no town equity in his posting, and a ton of scum equity. Add in a low level of engagement and that's exactly what I'm looking for in a day 1 lynch.

[fwogcarf]

yeah i need to reread this entire game

ive completely forgotten half of it

[Tuxedo Mask]

nothing wrong with sheeping a slam duck case imo. we could do with more votes on bv310.

That, or the people who want to wagon Petrichorus need to get together and make a real wagon. They should probably state a more concise case too, because I'm really not following what they're seeing at this point.

also fwog, you are long past due to put that vote into play so yeah thoughts and a vote would be good

Can you elaborate on what doesn't work on the Petrichorus case for you?

[fwogcarf]

12 - Petri starts off with vote on JV without any explanation

22- still my goal

Jackson actually is trying way too hard to townread me
@enomis how would you have read jackson before you subbed into his slot?

also i thought rvs and memephase were the same thing, turns out they're slightly different

nothing worth my interest happened in the next couple of posts

67 and 70 - I like the amount of content Tuxedo provides here. It really does get their PoV across and doesnt seem forced

74 - good reaction by gypyx

78 - Weird question because they disagree with my reads entirely as it seems

82 - Petri doesn't want a lynch??

84 - while quick lynching yes is a bad idea we don't need to use up all 10 days of our deadline. Things will be forgotton and scum slacks to a win

92 - Just because 72 came to defend me means I'm locktown? Sorry Petri that doesn't make sense, especially when you congratulate me on doing something you think I'm scum for

gypyx is probably going to be the type of player that gives up easily to pressure

109 - Tuxedo really does seem very nervous and apologizes for something that shouldn't be apologized for. It's a part of mafia to ask questions. It wasn't a response I was expecting

119 - Luciano coming in with a bang and immediately focuses their attention onto Petri. This likely isn't scum motivated

128 - Petri suddenly switches from me onto 72 after i made 122

132 still stands

I've also started to notice just now that Petri is responding with a "Hi, ____" to every post they get pinged to. Probably NAI but i kind of want to look into this overfriendliness that is Petrichorus

135 (Specifically the second response) How things are run in here? Hmmm, something feels off about that phrase.

139 - Scum!Luciano potentially pocketing Town!Tuxedo (just a possibility). This is further proven by 141

144 - This also applies if Luciano flips scum

72 comes in and posts forward-thinking posts. I like that

Normally i wouldn't make a post like 171 because "sure lets go with that" is not the post i make there

194 - Another sudden pivot towards me, this time from BV. I would disagree that I haven't provided content up to 194, there are plenty of other things to look at from me besides a Tux vote that I forgot about

This is where Luciano/Micc mindmeld about BV (213-220)

My lynchpool after this would be BV/Luciano/(Gypyx/Micc)

[Tuxedo Mask]

@Fwog could elaborate on these reads a bit more? I appreciate the insight into your thoughts, but I'm having trouble following them.

BV/Luciano/(Gypyx/Micc) are the names in brackets less scummy than the other two? Or are they the two teams you're thinking of?

Your mentions of Gypx is one post you like and then saying they'll bend easily to pressure. 78 seems fine to me, they can disagree with your reads but still ask you to define them. What places them in your lynch pool?

What about Micc, I don't see them mentioned at all, why lynch them?

Besides pocketing me has Lucaino done anything else you find scummy?

You seem to scum read Petri, is tere any reason they aren't in your scum pool?

Of the four you listed, who would you vote for?

[fwogcarf]

@Fwog could elaborate on these reads a bit more? I appreciate the insight into your thoughts, but I'm having trouble following them.

BV/Luciano/(Gypyx/Micc) are the names in brackets less scummy than the other two? Or are they the two teams you're thinking of?

Your mentions of Gypx is one post you like and then saying they'll bend easily to pressure. 78 seems fine to me, they can disagree with your reads but still ask you to define them. What places them in your lynch pool?

What about Micc, I don't see them mentioned at all, why lynch them?

Besides pocketing me has Lucaino done anything else you find scummy?

You seem to scum read Petri, is tere any reason they aren't in your scum pool?

Of the four you listed, who would you vote for?

I'll elaborate on only the ones that I feel should be noticed

First off, the issue I have with Jackson is that he only responded to my posts, whether or not they provided content or not. It's why i want enomis to read his own slot because if he was originally in the game, I wouldn't be targeting him for Jackson opening his pocket up for me.

Petri has provided some awkward content, doing something I call vote jumping. It's a tactic I see noobs do when they're trying to play their first games in order to 1. engage with the thread in some way, and 2. Get their vote on the board. I can imagine a new player constantly checking the votecount to try and overanalyze things only specific to voting. In Petri's case, they've managed to sort of outgrow this mindset of voting. They're voting with explanation, but I feel as if they're just trying to generate content. I think they see their own content as towny enough and are trying to get people on the same page, but it's not working.

I'm also seeing potential pockets which i want to look more into as the game progresses to see who in the two players that are involved in said so pocket is the likelier option to be scum. There's only two scum in this game so I don't know if my tactic will work, we'll have to see.

The Luciano/Micc interaction deserves a flip from one of the two. Their mindmeld about BV, genuine or not, needs to get solved asap or else solving both players will be a lot harder for me. A proper lynch order would be:
1. BV
2. Luciano
3. I am still deciding whether I want to put Gypyx or Micc here.
And I guess I'll add onto that with
4. myself
5. Deciding whether I put Tuxedo or 72 here

Myself and Tuxedo/72 don't need to be looked at until tomorrow with the content that we've got here
I have no opinion on the rest of the players

[Karnage]

Mod Note

bv310 has been prodded. They have have (expired on 2020-05-01 17:32:37) to post before being replaced.

[Micc]

Can you elaborate on what doesn't work on the Petrichorus case for you?

I'm taking 134 to be the extent of the case. If there's more you'd like me to comment on you'll probably have to restate your position first.

Here directly calls Fwog listing himself as town suspicious.
...
Immediately contradicts here

If someone says their post has been misinterpreted, I'm going to take that to be the truth in a lot of cases. Petrichorus gives clarification that listing oneself in a readlist isn't something he found suspicious on its own, just unconventional. I think that's a reasonable thing to comment on, especially in a position like Petrichorus's where he's new to the forum format and still getting a handle on what he thinks is suspicious. Furthermore, scum don't have much of an incentive to lie or be inconsistent about this kind of stuff. Backing down on this read isn't furthering a scum win condition for Petrichorus.

Says the vote was for pressure and reaction test. Calls it an immediate success, doesn't explain what it proved if anything. Then hops off the wagon while casting suspicion on another player (already being questions by others) without voting them. He also backed off this Fwog extremely fast, giving up at the first sign of resistance.

I agree with your point about calling the fwog vote a reaction test being questionable as far as for whether that was really the intent all along. Pressure makes a little more sense, but doesn't really line up with unvoting and not applying his vote elsewhere. This was one of the larger lines of reasoning I was following when I put my vote on Petrichorus around this point in the game.

Sheeping
...
Acknowledges their sheeping, and generally comes off very self-conscious about how they're viewed. Continues to soft push 72, without developing their read or questioning them.

I don't find sheeping to be a particularly good reason to scum read someone. Some very good players have playstyles which would fall apart completely if they weren't allowed to build on the stepping stones put in place by others.

@Petrichorus how much experince do you have with forum mafia?

All in all, Petrichorus seems to be following whatever wagons look the easiest, and generally tries to slip by unnoticed. When their actions are called out they immediately backtrack, and look for a new angle. They also have a habit of being extremely nice and friendly (yay for non-toxic games) it's not really alignment idictive but it always tends to make me wary, especially combined with a player who seems preoccupied with how other players view them.

Aside from Petrichorus, on the 72 defends Fwog stuff. It all seems really reliant on associative reads. And being six pages into day one, I don't like that.

I think it makes more sense to explain these attributes coming from someone who is new to forum mafia as a format, rather than being scum. If you've never played this format its pretty sensible to be starting out with surface level pushes and a lack of confidence making those pushes.

My challenge for you would be to expand on how pushing easy wagons or backtracking on pushes is forwarding his scum win condition and not his town win condition.

[enomis]

Spoiler: Micc Post 261

I can only think of a single time I was 'super confirmed' on someone being scum day 1, and this isn't it. That said, I do think bv310 is far and away the best lynch right now because I see almost no town equity in his posting, and a ton of scum equity. Add in a low level of engagement and that's exactly what I'm looking for in a day 1 lynch.

Disregarding engagement since he is most likely getting replaced, would you still scum-read BV if petri was town? Afterall, if petri was town, wouldn't a scum BV usually stay on the wagon?

@Fwog

: I don't really think reading my own slot is going to help as I have no need to analyse jackson when i know his alignment. I basically skipped his post.

Spoiler: Fwog post 266

The Luciano/Micc interaction deserves a flip from one of the two. Their mindmeld about BV, genuine or not, needs to get solved asap or else solving both players will be a lot harder for me. A proper lynch order would be:
1. BV
2. Luciano
3. I am still deciding whether I want to put Gypyx or Micc here.
And I guess I'll add onto that with
4. myself
5. Deciding whether I put Tuxedo or 72 here

Could you explain more about BV? since he is your top scumread. Your whole logic of mind-meld about other people then having BV to be lynched seems super weird.

[Micc]

A petrichorus town flip would not impact my bv310 read. Scum bv310 can stay on the petrichorus wagon and push for (presumably) a mislynch there or get off and hope the lynch goes through with him being offwagon. I’d say either option is defensible depending on what his partner is doing, such that this isn’t worth reading into.

[fwogcarf]

Spoiler: Micc Post 261

I can only think of a single time I was 'super confirmed' on someone being scum day 1, and this isn't it. That said, I do think bv310 is far and away the best lynch right now because I see almost no town equity in his posting, and a ton of scum equity. Add in a low level of engagement and that's exactly what I'm looking for in a day 1 lynch.

Disregarding engagement since he is most likely getting replaced, would you still scum-read BV if petri was town? Afterall, if petri was town, wouldn't a scum BV usually stay on the wagon?

@Fwog

: I don't really think reading my own slot is going to help as I have no need to analyse jackson when i know his alignment. I basically skipped his post.

Spoiler: Fwog post 266

The Luciano/Micc interaction deserves a flip from one of the two. Their mindmeld about BV, genuine or not, needs to get solved asap or else solving both players will be a lot harder for me. A proper lynch order would be:
1. BV
2. Luciano
3. I am still deciding whether I want to put Gypyx or Micc here.
And I guess I'll add onto that with
4. myself
5. Deciding whether I put Tuxedo or 72 here

Could you explain more about BV? since he is your top scumread. Your whole logic of mind-meld about other people then having BV to be lynched seems super weird.

I was going to explain but then I saw how dead the BV slot is.

This actually messes up my entire list so much holy shit

[bv310]

Will post later tonight, my power went out and I can't format posts well from my phone

[Karnage]

Mod Note

Gypyx has been prodded. They have have (expired on 2020-05-02 00:12:13) to post before being replaced.

[Petrichorus]

I think flipping is regarded by most players as if somebody dies they either flip town or flip scum

That makes sense, so yes I was using it inappropriately. To rephrase my earlier post using correct terms:
"I still stick by that if I had immediately switched to wagoning 72 I would have been pulled up on a the speed of that change."

Hello Guys, Pleased to join this game. Will read through the thread and post soon.

It's been a while since my last game so super excited to be in this game.

Welcome man!

Hey guys, skimmed through the threads and make some notes.

Town:
Tuxedo seems town to me.[The part where he talks about quarantine being the reason why he tries to skim the thread very often to try to inspect people]
Fwog can be town for now as i grouped some of his interactions with tuxedo,gypsy and 72 as not scumxscum interaction.

Are there any interactions in D1 that you think are scumxscum or do you feel that they've avoided prolonged interaction?

@Tuxedo. Rather than adress it point by point, which I started doing, I thought I'd better lay out the case properly.

The series of events as it transpires is notable to me for the following reasons. Firstly, 72o gave his first vote, with no strong read, in the middle of a discussion between Fwog and Gyp. This discussion was about Micc casting suspicions. Initially I mis-read this conversation and thought that Gyp was insinuating that Fwog was casting those suspicions. I have discussed this mistake before. This correction was the primary reason that I unvoted Fwog.

I still find this event suspicious as it was a very direct derailing of the discussion on Micc's post. I don't like 72s tone and while I cannot prove that 72 was building a wagon to stop that line of questioning, I do think it is potentially incriminating.

By your own reasons for voting Fwog and now 72, does it not look like you're doing the same? Defending the actions of Gyp by voting the people disagreeing with him?

I don't think so. I think I've made my thoughts on 72o clear in 207 and that is why I am still on the wagon for 72o. In addition, I think that my vote on 72 was on a more substantial suspicion initially, compared to a 'gut read'

12 - Petri starts off with vote on JV without any explanation

92 - Just because 72 came to defend me means I'm locktown? Sorry Petri that doesn't make sense, especially when you congratulate me on doing something you think I'm scum for

He joked he was scum, I threw him a joke vote. 3 of the first 4 posts by players included a vote, are you telling me that they were all heavily reasoned thesises? I don't understand why this is relevant.

RE: 92 - Please define 'locktown'. I'd like to know before I answer so as not to be misconstrued.