Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[Tuxedo Mask]

I'm going to reread the game more in depth before I start heavily engaging in this day phase. Just going off how I felt about players late yesterday, the next logical step is either Petri or Gypyx. Gypyx seemed to pretty heavily townread me towards the end of D1, and now he's starting D2 off supposing that I killed fwog. The disconnect doesn't feel natural, and fits in with your reasoning in 443.

I don't think he's been suspicious of you at all today. Just questioning my train of thought which heavily revolves around you. Nothin he's said implies he thinks your mafia, just wondering why I think the NK means you're not.

[Tuxedo Mask]

It's funny that we both said we're to busy for this game today, and we're the ones talking with each other.

[LuckyLuciano]

You really have to start reading between the lines.

pedit: It's either I talk to you or I remind myself how much I regret the other commitment I made.

[Tuxedo Mask]

You really have to start reading between the lines.

pedit: It's either I talk to you or I remind myself how much I regret the other commitment I made.

It's not that I don't see what you're getting at. But it is on you to more justify it.

And though I see it, it isn't out of line with him from Day 1.

It's just a game, I would appreciate if talking to you was a little less prickly.

[LuckyLuciano]

That last part wasn't meant to come across negatively. It's more so that I'm drained from elsewhere and talking to you here is an excuse for a break from that commitment.

[Tuxedo Mask]

That last part wasn't meant to come across negatively. It's more so that I'm drained from elsewhere and talking to you here is an excuse for a break from that commitment.

It's okay, I'm bad at picking up tone over text. I just felt that was more condescending what it could have been rewarded to be more educational. It is still a newbie game.

I'm down to hear your Petri read. I think I lost the thread on them and was starting to town read their last few posts.

[LuckyLuciano]

I know at 289 I was null on Petri. I need to reread his posts after that point, as I was focused on getting fwog back on the right track for the latter part of the day. Alright, I need to stop wasting time and get back to work. I'll be back here tomorrow morning at the latest.

[enomis]

Hmmm, Not to copy others but I also need a reread to get myself back in the game.

BTW, Tuxedo, I don't think Micc is close to being universal townread at all.

Also, I think that scum may have picked from people off the BV wagon and there should be at least one scum on that wagon.

[Petrichorus]

Definitely not who I expected tonight. I expected a general townread to go. Tux at the top of that list. Still, WIFOM when trying to figure out what the mafia are thinking. On the earlier note of Masonry, I hadn't considered that. This isn't a question to catch someone out, but a genuine newb question. Does a mafia special action happen alongside a kill or at a different time. I.e. if there was a rolecop or blocker does their action happen seperately chronologically or alongside? I'm assuming that the latter is the case, otherwise mafia rolecop would be OP.

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

Finger of Suspicion

But people didn't town read, or follow Fwog. While people did for me. So they could hope I'd carry the momentum from the day ended, and really push Lucky, with the added evidence of that flip.

Basically I'm more likely to convince people than Fwog was.

That's a fair point, but is there any reason why you aren't considering the possibility that Lucky killed Fwog? (unless i misunderstood your point)

I assume this is part of Lucky's reason for the vote but I look forward to hearing your reasoning. I can't tell if this is scum trying to press forwards the line of thinking that they tried to set-up with the kill, but if so that's rather sloppy. After that it spirals into WIFOM.

That said, I think it's interesting that Lucky's reasoning for fwog being strongest town-read was so quick after reveal. Could be NAI.

That last part wasn't meant to come across negatively. It's more so that I'm drained from elsewhere and talking to you here is an excuse for a break from that commitment.

It's okay, I'm bad at picking up tone over text. I just felt that was more condescending what it could have been rewarded to be more educational. It is still a newbie game.

I'm down to hear your Petri read. I think I lost the thread on them and was starting to town read their last few posts.

This whole interaction feels very genuine. If it's a scumxscum conversation, they're extremely convincing. I don't think that's the case.

[Petrichorus]

Also, following the thread of scum trying to use a flip to cast susp:

Vote Count 1.8

bv310 (5) ~

Micc, enomis, LuckyLuciano, Petrichorus, Tuxedo Mask,

~LYNCH~

Petrichorus (1) ~

Gypyx,

fwogcarf (1) ~

bv310,

Gypyx (1) ~

72offsuit,

LuckyLuciano (1) ~

fwogcarf,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-05-04 20:18:01)

V/LA:

none

So avoiding a WIFOM discussion, fwog was lynched and was voting for Lucky.
Why this target in particular?

Other potential targets:
Lynch Gypyx to flag Petrichorus - Unlikely as suspicion high on me.
Lynch 72 to flag Gypyx - Some suspicion on 72 but possible that this was not chosen for other reasons.

Assuming that scum went with the flip-susp strategy they either chose Fwog as a target because a flip on Lucky and attempting to undermine him seemed the most advantageous or, either me or 72 are scum and this would not make our accusors ideal targets as they would cause suspicion in us.

If Lucky is scum, he's got balls. While I do not doubt that he is experienced and is not adverse to taking risks, I do not think that he would make this play.

I was reading Gyp and 72 as potential scum but I don't think they're scum together.

I know that a 72 wagon isn't really realistic, but i'd rather mention it

1) Already explained, my point was that even though 72 and petri are my 2 biggest suspcets, i don't see them being scum together, and as no one is really defending them, i guessed that the second scum must be between the less active players, and between all of them, BV is the most susp one

It would be a very risky play to cast the idea of 72 up as a suspect when I flip town after a lynch up in the air.

@72, assuming that you will read this at SOME point in the future, why did your D1 vote remain on Gypyx the whole day? You defended this vote a couple of times and painted people questioning the usefulness of this vote as scummy:

I get a scummy vibe here from bv calling my vote a "flimsy excuse"
A weak read is better than no read. You painting my vote on gyp as scummy, by basically calling it OMGUS, is scummy in itself.

It's a very odd and confrontational way of discussing this and I dislike the stubborn-ness with NO logic behind it.

[enomis]

Currently ISO-ing Micc, and there's something I noticed here.

VOTE: Petrichorus
I'm in agreement that this is a good direction. I have fwog, Gypyz, tuxedo, and luckyLuciano on the probably not lynching today list, but that's contingent on me putting a little more work into actually think about things probably tomorrow

But Then:

Can you elaborate on what doesn't work on the Petrichorus case for you?

I'm taking 134 to be the extent of the case. If there's more you'd like me to comment on you'll probably have to restate your position first.

So he didn't believe on the case for Petri Scum in post 134 but went ahead to vote him on post 143.
1) Micc thinks voting Petri is a good direction and agree with everyone else
2) He later rebuts saying that the case for petri is super weak(

Which he agreed with

)
3) Scum forgeting the made-up reason that he gave to jump on a wagon?
@Micc, could you explain yourself here.

Unlikely Scumbuds team with Micc:
Micc x gypsy [page 1-6] arguing + Post #126
Micc x Petri (Petri accusing Micc of disengaging with the wagon) Post #308

VOTE: Micc
Parking my vote here for now while I iso others.

[enomis]

Lucky seems town after isoing him. Seems like genuinely scumhunting. And I don't think scum will point out the mason soft.
To be frank, I am thinking if it is the reason scum killed fwog.

I think writing that post made me realize the problem I've been having with this game. I feel that the energy levels of different slots either started high and diminished over time, started low and picked up later on, or hasn't been there all game, and it's led to this weird game state where people are trying to solve at different times but it doesn't feel like town has all been present trying to progress the game at the same time. Especially with how I now feel about Petri's slot, it just doesn't feel like scum has been put in a position where they have to be proactive. It also explains why the moment scum does make a move (bv), it stands out to clearly.

This post also feels super genuine and towny.

[72offsuit]

Also, following the thread of scum trying to use a flip to cast susp:

Vote Count 1.8

bv310 (5) ~

Micc, enomis, LuckyLuciano, Petrichorus, Tuxedo Mask,

~LYNCH~

Petrichorus (1) ~

Gypyx,

fwogcarf (1) ~

bv310,

Gypyx (1) ~

72offsuit,

LuckyLuciano (1) ~

fwogcarf,

With 9 alive it's 5 to lynch

Deadline: (expired on 2020-05-04 20:18:01)

V/LA:

none

So avoiding a WIFOM discussion, fwog was lynched and was voting for Lucky.
Why this target in particular?

Other potential targets:
Lynch Gypyx to flag Petrichorus - Unlikely as suspicion high on me.
Lynch 72 to flag Gypyx - Some suspicion on 72 but possible that this was not chosen for other reasons.

Assuming that scum went with the flip-susp strategy they either chose Fwog as a target because a flip on Lucky and attempting to undermine him seemed the most advantageous or, either me or 72 are scum and this would not make our accusors ideal targets as they would cause suspicion in us.

If Lucky is scum, he's got balls. While I do not doubt that he is experienced and is not adverse to taking risks, I do not think that he would make this play.

I was reading Gyp and 72 as potential scum but I don't think they're scum together.

I know that a 72 wagon isn't really realistic, but i'd rather mention it

1) Already explained, my point was that even though 72 and petri are my 2 biggest suspcets, i don't see them being scum together, and as no one is really defending them, i guessed that the second scum must be between the less active players, and between all of them, BV is the most susp one

It would be a very risky play to cast the idea of 72 up as a suspect when I flip town after a lynch up in the air.

@72, assuming that you will read this at SOME point in the future, why did your D1 vote remain on Gypyx the whole day? You defended this vote a couple of times and painted people questioning the usefulness of this vote as scummy:

I get a scummy vibe here from bv calling my vote a "flimsy excuse"
A weak read is better than no read. You painting my vote on gyp as scummy, by basically calling it OMGUS, is scummy in itself.

It's a very odd and confrontational way of discussing this and I dislike the stubborn-ness with NO logic behind it.

1. Please explain what this "flip strategy" theory you are talking about is.
2. Why are you assuming scum are playing this so-called "flip strategy". Is this a popular scum play in your opinion? Do you employ this when you are scum? And why do you think scum are employing said strategy here?

3. Your insistence on scum-scum associations is scummy in itself. We have a flip of BV who had fk all interactions with anyone, so no idea why you are so obsessed with scum partner analysis - it doesnt feel like you are genuinely hunting scum, but rather as thought you are trying to widen your lynch pool as much as possible.

4. I had very few reads yesterday. Everyone felt pretty much null, so l kept my vote on gyp to pressure him, and I asked some follow up questions. Other than gyp, bv pinged me slightly early, and then later on I agreed with a few points others made of him being scum, at which point i stated my intent to hammer-vote for bv.

5. Do you think confrontational is a townie or scummy thing to do? If so, why?

[72offsuit]

Petri’s post 92 , his analysis of me questioning gyp’s post in 80 , still really bothers me.
Just feels like scum looking for a scum read on anyone. Feels like a 2-for-the-price-of-one-bargain-bin move: 2 fake FoSes based on just one interaction.
Not sure why you would jump to that conclusion, rather than take it as the read on a player that it was.

Petri’s voting pattern, voting for the clear fwog, me (yes, only I know I’m town, but the point still remains), and for bv, also clear-town.

If Petri had such a reaction to my post, it feels at odds for him to post
post 82, which was on Sat Apr 25, 2020 9:41 pm and makes no reference to my post 80

And then only ~12 hours later, in post 92 on Sun Apr 26, 2020 8:43 am , decides he doesn’t like my post 80.

Just doesn’t feel right.

VOTE: Petri

[72offsuit]

Lucky seems town after isoing him. Seems like genuinely scumhunting. And I don't think scum will point out the mason soft.
To be frank, I am thinking if it is the reason scum killed fwog.

I think writing that post made me realize the problem I've been having with this game. I feel that the energy levels of different slots either started high and diminished over time, started low and picked up later on, or hasn't been there all game, and it's led to this weird game state where people are trying to solve at different times but it doesn't feel like town has all been present trying to progress the game at the same time. Especially with how I now feel about Petri's slot, it just doesn't feel like scum has been put in a position where they have to be proactive. It also explains why the moment scum does make a move (bv), it stands out to clearly.

This post also feels super genuine and towny.

Why is posting a soft-claim theory on a dead player alignment indicative? Say what???

[72offsuit]

Regarding fwog's lined-up lynches: Can anyone make sense of the order of lynches he posted yesterday and if he would have maintained his plan today had he not died?

[72offsuit]

Currently ISO-ing Micc, and there's something I noticed here.

VOTE: Petrichorus
I'm in agreement that this is a good direction. I have fwog, Gypyz, tuxedo, and luckyLuciano on the probably not lynching today list, but that's contingent on me putting a little more work into actually think about things probably tomorrow

But Then:

Can you elaborate on what doesn't work on the Petrichorus case for you?

I'm taking 134 to be the extent of the case. If there's more you'd like me to comment on you'll probably have to restate your position first.

So he didn't believe on the case for Petri Scum in post 134 but went ahead to vote him on post 143.
1) Micc thinks voting Petri is a good direction and agree with everyone else
2) He later rebuts saying that the case for petri is super weak(

Which he agreed with

)
3) Scum forgeting the made-up reason that he gave to jump on a wagon?
@Micc, could you explain yourself here.

Unlikely Scumbuds team with Micc:
Micc x gypsy [page 1-6] arguing + Post #126
Micc x Petri (Petri accusing Micc of disengaging with the wagon) Post #308

VOTE: Micc
Parking my vote here for now while I iso others.

1. Again, why the focus on scum partners?
2. Other than Micc, who would be head #2 on your chopping block?

[72offsuit]

Well, there might be something more than just putting FoS susp on Lucky (btw what does that exactly mean?) as if this really was scum's plan, they probably would've killed you i think

Finger of Suspicion

But people didn't town read, or follow Fwog. While people did for me. So they could hope I'd carry the momentum from the day ended, and really push Lucky, with the added evidence of that flip.

Basically I'm more likely to convince people than Fwog was.

Who did you think was following you/would/will follow you today?
Players who aren;t particularly charismatic and arent easily able to convince others, are still a threat to scum.
Furthermore I don;t think many people scum read fwog either.

[Petrichorus]

4. I had very few reads yesterday. Everyone felt pretty much null, so l kept my vote on gyp to pressure him, and I asked some follow up questions. Other than gyp, bv pinged me slightly early, and then later on I agreed with a few points others made of him being scum, at which point i stated my intent to hammer-vote for bv.

Petri’s voting pattern, voting for the clear fwog, me (yes, only I know I’m town, but the point still remains), and for bv, also clear-town.

Man you can't have it both ways. If Fwog and bv were 'clear town' then why were you happy to hammer bv. What evidence do you have to support this claim? It appears that you are saying whatever needs to be said to paint me in the worst light and does not feel like a fair and genuine examination. You can't re-write history so easily.

I'll build a fuller case when I get back from work tonight but this is enough for me:

1 - I scumread 72 and question their confrontational manner and their gut read and get voted back with a gut read on the time it took me to post once. As someone who has regularly taken lengthy breaks from the game and been prodded, this seems especially disingenuous.

2 - The contradiction between calling bv a scumread and also clear-town after a flip.

VOTE: 72offsuit

As you describe in your posts but also in post 386 and 387 you susp bv. So frankly, how dare you after the fact scuttle around and lament 'clear town' bv being suspected by other people. Shifty man.

To answer your questions, however lacking in good faith they may be.
1 - Flip strategy as discussed by Tux in post 437 and elaborated on in 439. You need it explaining? I'll happily oblige:
Tux and Lucky both were pointing FoS at fwog at the end of D1. Also at the end of D1, Fwog was voting Lucky. It is possible that scum killed Fwog to cause us to think Lucky was defending himself. It is possible that Lucky made the kill but I don't think that's as likely. You need me to explain any more?

2 - I don't know that they're playing this strategy, obviously. That said, it is wise for scum to cause internal FoS in town early on to force a Lylo early when there is less information. I have no idea of the meta on this site, so I couldn't commend on whether I think it's a popular play here. It's a semi-popular play in my games in Meat Space.

3 -

3. Your insistence on scum-scum associations is scummy in itself. We have a flip of BV who had fk all interactions with anyone, so no idea why you are so obsessed with scum partner analysis - it doesnt feel like you are genuinely hunting scum, but rather as thought you are trying to widen your lynch pool as much as possible.

A) I'm not the only one looking for associations, as being as there are 2 scum, they have to have interacted at some point in the forum. If you can spot that, you get scum. What's so hard to understand about that. Why don't you want us following this line of inquiry?

B) BV was town, why does his interactions have anything to do with scumxscum talk?

C) Widening my lynchpool? You are the only person to not give a single town-read. You cannot possibly be talking about a wider lynchpool that that, hypocrite.

4 - You asked three questions of Gyp:
159 - 190 - 205
Man real hard hitting questions. Great follow-up. I'll go into more detail after work if you need me to break these down for you.

5 - Immediately turning round and painting whoever questions your motives as scummy is not helpful. confronting people about their actions if they are contradictions or are scumstrong, sure. You wanna build a case, you need more than that.


Your entire vote on me is predicated on post 92 and the 12 hour gap it took for me to re-read and comment on your post. As someone with large gaps in their activity, spare me the scorn. So D2, we're looking into potential contradictions and content that brings town closer to victory and you're going with a gut-read again. Pitiful.


As you can tell the tone of this post is a bit different from my others. I'll be cordial to those acting in good faith. I do not think you are, Sir. Prove me wrong.

[Petrichorus]

Lucky seems town after isoing him. Seems like genuinely scumhunting. And I don't think scum will point out the mason soft.
To be frank, I am thinking if it is the reason scum killed fwog.

I think writing that post made me realize the problem I've been having with this game. I feel that the energy levels of different slots either started high and diminished over time, started low and picked up later on, or hasn't been there all game, and it's led to this weird game state where people are trying to solve at different times but it doesn't feel like town has all been present trying to progress the game at the same time. Especially with how I now feel about Petri's slot, it just doesn't feel like scum has been put in a position where they have to be proactive. It also explains why the moment scum does make a move (bv), it stands out to clearly.

This post also feels super genuine and towny.

I agree with your conclusions but a scum might try and give that read if they know it could never have been true. If there's a rolecop for example, they know there isn't a masonry.

[Petrichorus]

To clarify. I am not referencing your conclusion, just the fact that I don't think it's necessarily towny for Lucky to post that specific mason post. Useful content yes, but not necessarily towny. Other than that I agree with you. Right off to work. See you all in 10 hours.

Ciao

[enomis]

Why is posting a soft-claim theory on a dead player alignment indicative? Say what???

I agree with your conclusions but a scum might try and give that read if they know it could never have been true. If there's a rolecop for example, they know there isn't a masonry.

@Petri, @72

: It wasn't the main point of the argument, it was to substantiate the other evidence. But I understand that it isn't a strong argument.
I just thought that it was more likely for town lucky to point that out compared to scum lucky. Especially if they killed Fwog because he soft-claimed PR.
But I am not sure if scum caught this claim as I didn't catch it until lucky pointed it out.

1. Again, why the focus on scum partners?
2. Other than Micc, who would be head #2 on your chopping block?

@72:

1) It wasn't meant to focus on scum partners, it is just what I noticed throughout iso-ing/ some notes i took down when doing the original catchup
2) Currently no one. I used to have Petri/72(You) as scummy reads by gut but I forgot where I had my gut read. So I most likely have to iso you two again.

I realised you always focus on the side point of my argument.
1) What do you think about my argument of Micc being scum?
2) What do you think about my other points of Luciano being town?

[enomis]

Isoing Petri

Regarding the above, I did not call it an immediate success. I said that I got responses regarding self-listing in spades. This was from more than fwog and informed me more on how things are run in here.

@Petri: What reactions were you expecting when doing that reaction test? (I know that I am backtracking alot here)


And.... This is all I got from your iso. Didn't really have the same gut read that I had went reading through the game the first time.

I found it abit hard to read your wall posts. Don't know if it was the way you phrased or your formatting.

[Micc]

This isn't a question to catch someone out, but a genuine newb question. Does a mafia special action happen alongside a kill or at a different time. I.e. if there was a rolecop or blocker does their action happen seperately chronologically or alongside? I'm assuming that the latter is the case, otherwise mafia rolecop would be OP.

All night actions are submitted and resolved together at the end of the Night Phase, so your assumption is correct. Natural Action Resolution is good reading material for the exact details of how resolution works.

@Micc, could you explain yourself here.

143 comes pretty early in Day 1 at a point where no major wagons had been made. Wagons are good, they create pressure and allow people to make reads. At this point in Day 1 the threshold for me being willing to join a wagon is pretty low, so with a lot of people expressing suspicion of Petrichorus I was willing to lend my vote to that cause. Further along in 268 I talked about Petrichorus's explanation for voting fwog being the primary source of my suspicion at the point I voted in 143.

By the time 268 was made I had identified bv310 was the lynch I wanted for the Day, not just a target I wanted to pressure. You can probably tell the difference, because 268 is a direct result of me trying to get Tuxedo (mild town read) to line his vote up with mine - either convince him of bv310 or have him convince me of Petrichorus. This is in contrast to the Petrichorus wagon, where I was happy to plop my vote down and let the people who really believed push the wagon.

[Micc]

VOTE: Petri

@72offsuit: What are your thougts with respect to the first paragraph of Petrichorus's 458 being a newbie town-slip?

Spoiler:

Definitely not who I expected tonight. I expected a general townread to go. Tux at the top of that list. Still, WIFOM when trying to figure out what the mafia are thinking. On the earlier note of Masonry, I hadn't considered that. This isn't a question to catch someone out, but a genuine newb question. Does a mafia special action happen alongside a kill or at a different time. I.e. if there was a rolecop or blocker does their action happen seperately chronologically or alongside? I'm assuming that the latter is the case, otherwise mafia rolecop would be OP.