Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[joqiza]

lmfao

[joqiza]

I'm on lunch break i'm gonna catch up

[joqiza]

every game i play with koba i watch them get into these kind of arguments and every game i watch the brain bleed

[Apogee]

Yeah I've reread all the stuff that happened through the night and seems like a lot of arguments popped up quickly.

I'm leaning against calling DkKoba mafia this early -- more of a null/slight town. Seems to me they have pushed hard for conversation all game which (albeit in my quite limited) experience suggests more towny. I don't really have meta or logic to back it up, but their reactions in the last page or so also feel more frustrated then frightened? My one hesitancy with them is that I think some of the questions enomis asked were legitimate and an attempt to get useful information.

Midwaybear hasn't really changed my view on him with his reread, but also didn't make himself sound more scummy.

Ydrasse is probably my strongest townlean. Not really sure on Clemancy -- I want to see how he reacts to the more recent stuff.

Feel free to ask questions about any of this. I'll be back later with some thoughts on other people

[joqiza]

When you said it's wild to townread 3 players so soon, I'm assuming you understood from it that I firmly believe they are town already. That is not the case, what I'm saying is that I think they are displaying behavior that lets on on their intentions, although I will still re-evaluate the slots as the game continues. The fact that you called my reads not genuine is bothering me a little bit. The game has barely started, I feel like you should take some time to see more interaction from a slot before saying something like that. But fine, I'll put myself on your shoes and flesh out the reads a bit so you can see where I come from:

Alright, fair enough. So you know where I'm coming from, when I'm looking for scum I'm looking for things that are truly alignment indicative, and the issue with townreads is that mafia can more genuinely fake townreads than they can scumreads imo, because they can call someone town and have it be a 100% genuine and true statement. I think when players out scumreads it's often more alignment-indicative than them outing townreads. Wolves have to make up scumreads knowing that the player they're pushing on is town. This will seep into their tone and into their analysis, over the course of the game.

So when I saw you simply throwing out a couple of reads on people of towns, it just seemed like something a wolf could do. Wasn't strictly alignment-indicative cuz towns can play that way too (I have in the past) but was deserving of some pressure.

Also, as a side note, I mean no personal offense by anything I say this game. I mean this is a game of gauging people's intentions so I will misread people from time to time, but I accept that it's on me. I think on EM I'm used to a bit more of an aggressive culture and I'm probably carrying that here but I'll try to tone it down.

Clemancy: I said he's null for me because he hasn't produced content that is AI, but I felt his attitude felt a slight bit towny. I'm not reading him as town, I'm saying that I like his attitude so far.

Ydrasse: I town lean her because of a gut feeling/gut ping, whatever you want to call it. The way she speaks, the fact that she asked questions and complained about being ignored felt so sincere to me, so I'm inclined to believe she's townier than scum. The fact that we coincided in some opinions is something that I'm not sure if I should use to support a read, but I can't lie and say I don't like her slot more when I saw that we're on the same page (not really buying the scum slip idea/wondering why would explaining mechanics be scummy).

DkKoba: This one is self explanatory, I believe, but I'll try to explain it better. He tried to move the game along, he posted the first non-RVS vote, which is a way to generate discussion and actual content. Not only that, but I especially like aggressive/confident/arrogant? players more usually, since I feel like they are more likely to be town, since scum doesn't usually start pointing fingers right away, since they're more interested in getting town read by others than pushing fake scum reads that can backfire. That's also why I feel like scum joins wagons instead of creating them themselves.

I would also like to address DkKoba's concern about me, but it's a bit difficult considering he voted me and then said his reasons were the same as yours, so I hope this answers reaches both of you. If anyone has questions, I'll happily answer, because I want to be transparent with my way of thinking so we can all be on the same page.

I hope that clarifies some of my thought process.

Ya it'll be helpful if you keep explaining your thought process like this and pushing the players you think are most likely to be scum. Some of the backing still seems a bit weak but I won't push it for now, think it's more important to let things develop. As a side note the games I've lost as town it's been because there are too many other town players who stay unengaged/disconnected from the game and don't make strong reads, instead just lazily OMGUSing, getting into TvTs, and getting pocketing by mafia. I think we win this by having everyone come with their claws out so I'm going to try to encourage that in every slot.

[midwaybear]

I WAS AGGRESSIVE THERE TOO.

yeah, but I was scum that game, so I was fine with it.
your aggressiveness led to the jk claiming and two mislynches, so I think it's fair

pedit: I am one of those town player that you mentioned. I think I gain interest as the game goes on though.

[DkKoba]

Yeah I've reread all the stuff that happened through the night and seems like a lot of arguments popped up quickly.

I'm leaning against calling DkKoba mafia this early -- more of a null/slight town. Seems to me they have pushed hard for conversation all game which (albeit in my quite limited) experience suggests more towny. I don't really have meta or logic to back it up, but their reactions in the last page or so also feel more frustrated then frightened? My one hesitancy with them is that I think some of the questions enomis asked were legitimate and an attempt to get useful information.

Midwaybear hasn't really changed my view on him with his reread, but also didn't make himself sound more scummy.

Ydrasse is probably my strongest townlean. Not really sure on Clemancy -- I want to see how he reacts to the more recent stuff.

Feel free to ask questions about any of this. I'll be back later with some thoughts on other people

I answered the initial questiosn and the follow up questions are stupid. but i'll answer them if it so pleases the rest of u who seem to all be collectively hyperfocused on only the 1 set of questions.

[Maduisha]

Hey Midway, I asked you before (you know, when I voted you) why did you start fluff posting unrelated things to the game instead of engaging with the discussion or refraining to post? What was the objective of asking what GTKAS when people are discussing reads? I'm honestly confused.

Also, hi Apogee. I want to ask you the meaning of voting Midway and saying you're voting them "for now". Why are you announcing your position is non commital? I wish to understand the meaning of that vote, because it certainly wasn't to apply pressure.

Pedit:

@Joqiza, I'm aware it can be seen as scum indicative not to provide scum reads, but the game has barely begun and I'm certainly not coming up with random reads just to fill a town quota or something. I'm asking questions to analyze reactions for now and that's all you'll be getting from me in that regard for a bit now.

[DkKoba]

UNVOTE:
maduisha's tone has improved but I still feel a bit of a masked nature to it but I won't question it for now.

[votato]

Yeah I've reread all the stuff that happened through the night and seems like a lot of arguments popped up quickly.

I'm leaning against calling DkKoba mafia this early -- more of a null/slight town. Seems to me they have pushed hard for conversation all game which (albeit in my quite limited) experience suggests more towny. I don't really have meta or logic to back it up, but their reactions in the last page or so also feel more frustrated then frightened? My one hesitancy with them is that I think some of the questions enomis asked were legitimate and an attempt to get useful information.

Midwaybear hasn't really changed my view on him with his reread, but also didn't make himself sound more scummy.

Ydrasse is probably my strongest townlean. Not really sure on Clemancy -- I want to see how he reacts to the more recent stuff.

Feel free to ask questions about any of this. I'll be back later with some thoughts on other people

I answered the initial questiosn and the follow up questions are stupid. but i'll answer them if it so pleases the rest of u who seem to all be collectively hyperfocused on only the 1 set of questions.

it pleases us

[midwaybear]

I don't think I fluffed besides asking about GTKAS. Eh, the timing of that question was a coincidence. Sorry if it detracted from productive conversation

[joqiza]

To respond to enomis posts #119 & #118

I think that you pointing that out to start the game was fine. So your point no. 1 I agree with. To respond to your point no. 2, though, I disagree with your take entirely. I don't think it was a "weird and complicated" way to explain the slip, I actually thought the opposite, it was simplistic and dismissive. Which ya is scummy on a very surface level read, but this goes with my theory that in general, wolves care more about not being scumread. I can go into this more if you want but some of the tells I look for are when players are more focused on surface-level towntelling than they are on finding scum.

Points no 3, 4, 5 I will reconsider, I actually need to get back to work as I write this as my lunch hour is almost up. I'll be back probably in about 5/6 hours or so and I can finish my thoughts.

Last thing I want to say though is yeah, I haven't marked clemency as hard town or anything based off tone in early pages. I'm actually not much of a tonereader, there are other tells I prefer looking for. As of rn (rn = "right now") I'm still trying to get a sense for everyone at the table

[joqiza]

Okay I really need to go but lastly @DkKoba I don't have a strong read on you yet but if you're town please don't get too locked into the fights on Day 1, like just because you're town doesn't make the 2 people pushing on you both scum and I'm worried you're gonna miss the forest for the trees here because that's what I've seen in the other games I've played with you. I haven't had time to read through them and figure out who's acting in good faith yet but I'll do that this evening, and in general I just think it's too early for the big brain 2/2 if you get what I'm saying

[midwaybear]

I also fluff because I'm confused and have nothing really to say
sort of like an activity post

pedit: yeah I agree DK should try to stop tunneling

[Maduisha]

I also fluff because I'm confused and have nothing really to say
sort of like an activity post

pedit: yeah I agree DK should try to stop tunneling

Alright, this is what kind of worried me, though. Activity post translates to you wanting others to know you're there, but you add nothing. I think active lurking is not a good look, you could have tried to ask a question on topic to get the thread going if you had nothing to say about the ongoing discussion.

That being said, scum that fluffpost usually aren't that blatant and avoid admitting to it, so I'm conflicted because the action is scummy, but the behavior behind it feels towny.

[Apogee]

Also, hi Apogee. I want to ask you the meaning of voting Midway and saying you're voting them "for now". Why are you announcing your position is non commital? I wish to understand the meaning of that vote, because it certainly wasn't to apply pressure.

Well I think its fair to disagree on the wisdom or success of the strategy, but my intent was to get midwaybear to feel just enough pressure to come out and post (actual opinions) without being defensive. Like I wanted to hear some actual analysis from them because at that point (and still now) their posts strike me as slightly scummy, but there wasn't much to go off of in the actual content as oppossed to the context and lack of content. The "for now" caveat was because I wanted engagement without them becoming overtly defensive (like what happened in the DkKoba/votato/enomis exchange above). You familiar with the expression "give them the rope to hang themselves"? That was my rough idea, and it doesn't work super well if the target thinks you are lusting for their head.

Of course, that didn't work out all that great because midway's response in post #83 was pretty defensive and reductionist, but at least we got something.

Let me know what you think.

p-edit: what you (Maduisha) just commented on about the "activity post" is exactly why I wanted to get some thoughts out of midway, and I figured the soft(er) sell was the way to go about it even if it didn't work perfectly.

[DkKoba]

Yeah I've reread all the stuff that happened through the night and seems like a lot of arguments popped up quickly.

I'm leaning against calling DkKoba mafia this early -- more of a null/slight town. Seems to me they have pushed hard for conversation all game which (albeit in my quite limited) experience suggests more towny. I don't really have meta or logic to back it up, but their reactions in the last page or so also feel more frustrated then frightened? My one hesitancy with them is that I think some of the questions enomis asked were legitimate and an attempt to get useful information.

Midwaybear hasn't really changed my view on him with his reread, but also didn't make himself sound more scummy.

Ydrasse is probably my strongest townlean. Not really sure on Clemancy -- I want to see how he reacts to the more recent stuff.

Feel free to ask questions about any of this. I'll be back later with some thoughts on other people

I answered the initial questiosn and the follow up questions are stupid. but i'll answer them if it so pleases the rest of u who seem to all be collectively hyperfocused on only the 1 set of questions.

it pleases us

quote the questions i didnt answer first so I know you have actually been reading first

[DkKoba]

I WAS AGGRESSIVE THERE TOO.

yeah, but I was scum that game, so I was fine with it.
your aggressiveness led to the jk claiming and two mislynches, so I think it's fair

pedit: I am one of those town player that you mentioned. I think I gain interest as the game goes on though.

i think you missed the point of why I said that bud. sailed right over your head.

[votato]

1) didnt mean questions, meant the tips
2) ur more scummy. I think clemency has more or less townslipped with their tone as of rn.
3) yes yes yes. it more depends ~how~ its done but I did not like how you presented your "tips" and the content of them.

@Dkkoba:

1) Which tips would you be referring to? Would it be the first post Only?
2a) Where did clemency townslip? Would you be referring the the gambit he did?
2b) How is the gambit a townslip?
3) Same as question 1. Which tips and what did you not like about them.

a) the fact that i know there are questions proves i read
b) making me dig up the questions doesnt force me to read. i could discover based on context who asked, and just go to their iso.

[DkKoba]

Okay I really need to go but lastly @DkKoba I don't have a strong read on you yet but if you're town please don't get too locked into the fights on Day 1, like just because you're town doesn't make the 2 people pushing on you both scum and I'm worried you're gonna miss the forest for the trees here because that's what I've seen in the other games I've played with you. I haven't had time to read through them and figure out who's acting in good faith yet but I'll do that this evening, and in general I just think it's too early for the big brain 2/2 if you get what I'm saying

there's at least 1 scum between emonis + midway and I know it. I'll delete my account if I' wrong about that.

[DkKoba]

1) didnt mean questions, meant the tips
2) ur more scummy. I think clemency has more or less townslipped with their tone as of rn.
3) yes yes yes. it more depends ~how~ its done but I did not like how you presented your "tips" and the content of them.

@Dkkoba:

1) Which tips would you be referring to? Would it be the first post Only?
2a) Where did clemency townslip? Would you be referring the the gambit he did?
2b) How is the gambit a townslip?
3) Same as question 1. Which tips and what did you not like about them.

a) the fact that i know there are questions proves i read
b) making me dig up the questions doesnt force me to read. i could discover based on context who asked, and just go to their iso.

and you see the quote in that post. what i'm saying there? U see how I am ANSWERING their questions, and now they are trying to nitpick a RVS light read rather than continue the game? now go ask ur friend emonis why they are so focused on something from RVS when I have already moved past it.

[Apogee]

Clemency, you haven't posted in a bit. Any takes on the developments today?

[Ydrasse]

oh jeez you guys have been active today.

[Ydrasse]

honestly i kind of agree with dkkoba over the past page or two. i went to bed thinking that there was something off about their tone but i came back and it seems like today they're genuinely frustrated over this enomis thing.

1) didnt mean questions, meant the tips
2) ur more scummy. I think clemency has more or less townslipped with their tone as of rn.
3) yes yes yes. it more depends ~how~ its done but I did not like how you presented your "tips" and the content of them.

@Dkkoba:

1) Which tips would you be referring to? Would it be the first post Only?
2a) Where did clemency townslip? Would you be referring the the gambit he did?
2b) How is the gambit a townslip?
3) Same as question 1. Which tips and what did you not like about them.

like, what exactly do you gain from asking 1/3? i think that 1 is self-explanatory enough given there was conversation over the usefulness of posting stuff like that over the course of a few pages. and 3 just seems a bit... dunno. i just don't Get It maybe. it seems focused on something that in the grand scheme of things doesn't seem that important anymore with more things to discuss and i am going to beat my head in if half of this game's events are set in motion by that ~~~scumslip debacle.

i read the thread. i voted you for two reasons: you have several posts already that read like either trying to look like youre town but doesnt do anything gamesolvey, or just really scummy/bad. I also think that youll be pretty easy to get a read on once we put you under some pressure, so youre a good place to start.

clemency: why are you putting in effort at the start of this game? isnt your MO to shitpost?

pedit: be taken out? arent you the one refusing to answer questions? town has no reason to hide their intentions or thought process.

what posts specifically are scummy to you? i don't think it's bad to push obvi but i don't know which ones you think stand out as especially offensive.

[votato]

i read the thread. i voted you for two reasons: you have several posts already that read like either trying to look like youre town but doesnt do anything gamesolvey, or just really scummy/bad.

I also think that youll be pretty easy to get a read on once we put you under some pressure, so youre a good place to start

.

clemency: why are you putting in effort at the start of this game? isnt your MO to shitpost?

pedit: be taken out? arent you the one refusing to answer questions? town has no reason to hide their intentions or thought process.

what posts specifically are scummy to you? i don't think it's bad to push obvi but i don't know which ones you think stand out as especially offensive.

well i do think that DkK seems way to easily convinced by clemency. That would be a pretty easy lie for clemency to tell. I bolded the most relevant part of that post though. DkK gets very aggro and emotional when under pressure, and i think you can pretty easily get a peek at what lies under the spammy, mildly annoying exterior. After pushing him, I have him on a solid town read. I haven't seen him in any scum games, so I could easily be wrong. But, he's right. this is exactly how town!DkK thinks and acts. I also dont really see what he sees in enomis.

In short: I didn't think DkK was really all that scummy, I just thought he'd be an easy place to get a read. Turns out I was right! UNVOTE: