Newbie 2001 | Game Over

[72offsuit]

Flurry of posts begins here:

[72offsuit]

TM:

Like 70 on reread - feels free-flowing and natural,
particularly the stance on both gyp's post and on Petri's intro occuring within the same post.

Like 185 read on gyp - feels townmotivated.

Not really liking the overly apologetic posts, 109 and 389, 405
in particuarly given TM has been one of the higher content posters.
Just feels a little like he is playing nice, trying to be con-confrontational.

post 393 - Reads on Micc, fwog, myself, enomis seem like they could reasonably come from a town-mindset.

Disagree with posting regarding LL - LL gives me the vibe of a skilled and eloquent player, regardless of alignment.
Doing a "good job of making themselves understood and engaging" is not a town-trait.
In fact, I often find eloquent and neat posting players to be scum, calculating and carefully thinking through posts,
rather than reckless town posting what comes to their minds, unfiltered.
Given LL seems very experienced, however, therefore I wouldn;t attribute this as a reason for him being scum,
Just saying I don;t agree with TM's townread on LL for this reasoning.


Verdict: Townlean +2

[72offsuit]

Micc:
1. Liked his case against bv, felt town-motivated


2. 259: Seems like only time will tell, Re: this post. As at post 259, the vote count was super thinly spread out.
Petrichorus (2) ~ Tuxedo Mask, Gypyx,
fwogcarf (2) ~ enomis, bv310,
72offsuit (1) ~ Petrichorus,
Gypyx (1) ~ 72offsuit,
bv310 (1) ~ Micc,
Not voting (2) ~ LuckyLuciano, fwogcarf,
If Petri is town, then this might possibly be Micc pushing for a wagon on town (bv),
or otherwise suggesting a wagon on !townpetri; ie - pushing for a town wagon and a town counterwagon.

TLDR: Potentially scummy if Petri is town.


3. Townie vibes from post 268. Agree with the sentiment, I feel like !scumMicc could jump on board scumreading Petri by sheeping
the point made against Petri, but rather explains why it is in fact not scummy, but rather NAI. Kinda goes against my previous post,
but my feelings still stand for both points.

I've just manually quoted it:
"If someone says their post has been misinterpreted, I'm going to take that to be the truth in a lot of cases."
"Petrichorus gives clarification that listing oneself in a readlist isn't something he found suspicious on its own,
just unconventional. I think that's a reasonable thing to comment on, especially in a position like Petrichorus's
where he's new to the forum format and still getting a handle on what he thinks is suspicious.
Furthermore, scum don't have much of an incentive to lie or be inconsistent about this kind of stuff.
Backing down on this read isn't furthering a scum win condition for Petrichorus."


4. I like Micc's question directed at me Re: thoughts on Petri. It feels like the sort of question that is consistent with
!townMicc's goals and his reads so far: From what I understand he doesn;t see Petri as particuarly scummy,
and so is trying to sort out my alignment, by questioning my scumread on a player he doesn not see as being particularly scummy.

Verdict: Townlean +1.5

[Micc]

i think a wall of text will be too much

a wall of text is fine. I don't really mind stream of consciousness, but you're deliberately spamming the thread right now and you should stop because its annoying

[72offsuit]

Gyp:
post 78 pinged me slightly for reasons mentioned already -0.25

Looking back, I agree with TM's view that gyp’s reactions to questions have felt pretty genuine.

1. 74 - Response to Fwog’s “hey gypyx how you doing” feels natural and unforced
2. Handles my weird question in 205, with a reasonable, natural feeling response in post 283.

Post 292 and 294 analysis of myself and Petri seems reasonable for !townGyp to make.

297 half-baked reads list actually feels townie to me, the fact it only mentions a few players.
The reads he has, though I disagree with his LL read once again, seems reasonable for !townGyp to make.


Verdict: Townlean +2

[72offsuit]

Petri: Scumlean: -0.5 for reasons mentioned previously

[72offsuit]

Enomis :
253 awkward reads list structure. Feels like the "72 is a bit scummy was just an afterthought, to keep a wide lynchpool,
rather than a genuine read.

361 pings me in a negative way, in aprticular the "Will leave that to day 2 if i am still here."

368 is the sort of thing I've posted as scum in prior games. Referring to a situation that informed scum know to be false.
i.e !scumEnomis having the knowledge that BV is town, but discussing a scenario, whereby bv is scum:
"If BV is scum, then you are most likely scum", that isn't true and unhelpful, and he won;t be accountable for once bv flips town.

So basically the appearance of being helpful, without providing actually actionable content.

Post 374: "I don't think a 72 wagon is possible today."
Post 485: "Iso-ing 72: 72 feels town to me."

Inconsistency. No natural progression in his read of me as far as I can see.
Seems weird for Enomis to townread me, prior to me responding to his questions directed at myself in post 471.


Verdict: Scumlean -1

[72offsuit]

LL:
1. Feels like LL is buddying/pocketing me in 119.
I think a townie with little information here would more likely be suspicious of this, and see it as scummy, and call it bogus or fake reasoning,
rather than just describe it as "weak and misguided".

The carelessness description doesnt really fit my post, which makes me feel like its spin from LL, to fit a narrative.
That agenda being, that LL has read a past games of mine to try to mimick townreads that I've done in previous games.
See me in Newbie 1987: viewtopic.php?p=11609046&user_select%5B ... #p11609046
I call Maduisha reckless for lolhammering (I was town and Mad was town)

179 feels like LL manipulating Gypyx onto Petri, while also further buddying.


2. Also in 119, it feels like LL is directing Petri to scumread me.

"What do you believe is 72o's motive for shifting focus from fwog? Do you think that 72o is scum defending scum, or scum defending town?"

Why doesn't LL offer the options of town defending a player they also read as town, as an option?

This continues in LL's post 279:
Petri, I also meant to ask in that last post, I'm looking for more content from you that isn't a defense of yourself. Is 72o still your primary focus?


3. Post 141 - "Tbh, the more I look at Petri, the more I think Tux is spot-on"
Buddying TM, by jumping on his logic, feels like a pockety sort of post, like a pat-on-the-back, "spot-on", 'nice job' sort of post.


4. LL is in the butterzone, 3rd on the on the bv wagon. I don;t see the bv wagon being all town. I think LL is the scummiest on that wagon.


5. Weak point, but still holds nonetheless: Whoever said dead men tell no tales is wrong. Fwog's scumread of LL is genuine because we know fwog is town.


6. LL's self-meta'ing in posts 442, 447 are scummy. Why bring something up that isn;t actionable? It's just useless filler.
I've had several self-meta'ing players in my past games flip as scum. Really don;t like these posts.


7. Post 497: LL answering a question directed at me. This doesn't feel like town behaviour.


8. LL's readslist feels more like a 'don;t-rock-the-boat', continue on this gamestate pathway sort of a readslist.
Not really anything there that pings me as a good pickup (as opposed to eg: TM's briefer readslist)


All aboard the LL lynch wagon train, I;m shouting the ticket, free of charge.

Choo choo chooooooo! Chugga chugga choo choo!

VOTE: LL

Verdict: Scumlean -2.5

[72offsuit]

i think a wall of text will be too much

a wall of text is fine. I don't really mind stream of consciousness, but you're deliberately spamming the thread right now and you should stop because its annoying

Guilty as charged.

[72offsuit]

Townlean +1.5: TM, Micc
Townlean +0.5: Gyp

Scumlean -0.5: Petri
Scumlean -1: Enomis
Scumread -2.5: LL

[72offsuit]

Reponse to 468:
What I'm saying is, that now, looking retrospectively on day one's events, WITH THE BENEFIT OF HINDSIGHT, that you have a track record for voting for townies.

Point number 2 that Petri is making here is just silly. I don;t think scum does this, but rather derp-town.

"2 - The contradiction between calling bv a scumread and also clear-town after a flip."

Order of events:
1) During day 1 bv was my scumread
2) bv is lynched
3) bv is sitting in graveyard now as a clear town. Therefore, presently, we can now look back on his posts from the perspective of!townbv, given we know he is town.

Still feeling Petri as scummy, but feeling a bit like lynchbait at the moment.

Re: point 1 - From what I understand, when you say "flip strategy" you mean mafia's night kill selection strategy?

Re: point B - What I'm saying is, given the lynch flip was town, rather than scum, there is no progression towards scum-scum analysis. I feel like scum-scum interaction is something primarily beneficial once you have lynched a scum, then you ca reread that player's interactions with everyone else.

Re: point C - Fair call.
Still thinking about implications of this rather hostile post overall. Thoughts? @everyone?

Re: point 4 - They weren't intended to be hard-hitting but rather weird curveballs. His answers seemed decent, they seemed natural and unforced.

[72offsuit]

474 response:
I get where you are coming from, but no, I don;t agree wiht the theory of a townslip
- a slip as far as I see it, is when someone with privvy/secret information,
accidentally lets it be know that they have said information. So I don;t believe townslip is a thing.
What you've posted seems like something than can be engineered in scum chat.

[72offsuit]

476 response:
You aren't comparing apples to apples, but rather apples to elephants.

Apple: I'm accusing Petri of a timing tell. Rereading his ISO, I noticed that he didn;t react to my post until after he had posted something else unrelated.

Elephant: Petri read a post, did not comment on it, posted something unrelated, then 12 hours later makes a comment on the post.

Apples and elephants.

[72offsuit]

@gyp:

Re: post 301 - a key part of your townread of LL seems to be your feelings in 301:

"for instance, taking off your vote on petri, assuming that you're scum and Petri isn't your scumbuddy
(which would be quite weird, considering what you did in post 179) you had the opportunity to just keep your vote on him,
and surely, this would've been pretty likely to cause an unintentional hammer, while not making you that suspcious,
but you chose to take it off, which i find to be quite illogical to do as maf
(like, even a scum wanting to make himself look better could've just pointed out "hey watch out, petri is actually at L-1)


I disagree with your read of LL here. The momentum of day one feels like it was heading towards a bv lynch quite easily.
In the end, we had 6 players happy to vote for bv (I stated intent to hammer but TM hammered instead)
I feel like LL wouldn;t need to pursue Petri, with bv's head on the chopping block.

So, what I;m saying, if you set this thought-process aside Re: your townreading for the above rationale,
do you townread LL for any other reasons?


You say in your post 163, you don't see LL's
"carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

Pretty much what I feel is you also see LL as being disingenious, thus scummy here.


Basically, what I;m getting at, are you willing to jump on the LL wagon and see where it goes?

[72offsuit]

^ EBWOP: With posts linked:

@gyp:

Re: post 301 - a key part of your townread of LL seems to be your feelings in 301:

"for instance, taking off your vote on petri, assuming that you're scum and Petri isn't your scumbuddy
(which would be quite weird, considering what you did in post 179) you had the opportunity to just keep your vote on him,
and surely, this would've been pretty likely to cause an unintentional hammer, while not making you that suspcious,
but you chose to take it off, which i find to be quite illogical to do as maf
(like, even a scum wanting to make himself look better could've just pointed out "hey watch out, petri is actually at L-1)


I disagree with your read of LL here. The momentum of day one feels like it was heading towards a bv lynch quite easily.
In the end, we had 6 players happy to vote for bv (I stated intent to hammer but TM hammered instead)
I feel like LL wouldn;t need to pursue Petri, with bv's head on the chopping block.

So, what I;m saying, if you set this thought-process aside Re: your townreading for the above rationale,
do you townread LL for any other reasons?


You say in your post 163, you don't see LL's
"carelessness" you're describing, so, i don't think that the read you have on him really applies

Pretty much what I feel is you also see LL as being disingenious, thus scummy here.


Basically, what I;m getting at, are you willing to jump on the LL wagon and see where it goes?

[72offsuit]

OK finished.

[Micc]

this is my unedited draft of the post I had before 72offsuit showed up.
[line][/line]

VOTE: Petri

@72offsuit: What are your thougts with respect to the first paragraph of Petrichorus's 458 being a newbie town-slip?

Spoiler:

Definitely not who I expected tonight. I expected a general townread to go. Tux at the top of that list. Still, WIFOM when trying to figure out what the mafia are thinking. On the earlier note of Masonry, I hadn't considered that. This isn't a question to catch someone out, but a genuine newb question. Does a mafia special action happen alongside a kill or at a different time. I.e. if there was a rolecop or blocker does their action happen seperately chronologically or alongside? I'm assuming that the latter is the case, otherwise mafia rolecop would be OP.

If Petri is of the mindset that scum can plant fake tells, then scum!Petri could have planted that as a fake tell.

I was leaning into a 72offsuit vote when I left off, but wanted an answer to this first mostly to help judge how bad I think his Petrichorus vote is. Right now I'm thinking kinda. Doesn't look like he'll be answering anytime soon so I feel ok giving my opinion and moving on. In my experience playing and moderating newbies on this site, town slips like this are not faked at all. This has me moving more towards town on Petrichorus.

I understand that feeling. Get up to speed and weigh in on what you can please.

I can be here at pretty much any point today for some real-ish time conversations. I'd like to talk through 72offsuit with someone because my gut is saying to vote there but its hard to put a finger on exactly why.

[line][/line]
How much of that was pre-prepared?

[Micc]

yuck. sorry about the formatting. Lines didn't work, and last question is @72offsuit.

Also want to ask how high on the townness scale is 1.5? Don't want to lynch today, would never lynch today, would never lynch this game?

[72offsuit]

VOTE: LL

Forgot to bold upon pasting from word document.

[72offsuit]

yuck. sorry about the formatting. Lines didn't work, and last question is @72offsuit.

Also want to ask how high on the townness scale is 1.5? Don't want to lynch today, would never lynch today, would never lynch this game?

1.5 = extremely unlikely to lynch today unless extreme scumminess changes my mind.

[72offsuit]

I pre-prepared all those posts

[72offsuit]

Mostly at work on a desktop. Didnt want to be seen with mafiascum on my screen

[72offsuit]

So what are your real-time thoughts regarding mt reads on the player list?

[Micc]

The game state feels like scum would have been positioning themselves for a petrichorus mislynch day 1 and the hopped onto bv310 when I presented a strong case for that. Nightkill comes in off wagon, and it would make sense for scum to be pushing at the back half of the Day 1 wagon for today’s lynch. That includes you, but it also kinda includes LL, so I’m going to spend some time reconsidering that. What would you say is the strongest piece of evidence in support of LL vote.

Also maintenance guy showed up so I slightly less real time response right now

[Karnage]

mod note

Vote count incoming...