Newbie 2003: Earth [game over!]

[Quick]

anyways this one's for joqiza: im gonna fit people from this thread into archaetypes of players in fruit mafia:

me: obviously me
joqiza: obviously u
quick: shady
ydrasse: jess
midway: sonrio
Apogee: arcbell
Maduisha: spf
votato: honey
enomis: star(least fitting but had to choose between her or january)

its a bit coded but we'll see if he gets it

Great theorycraft, but it means essentially zero for this game. Get gud.

[Maduisha]

Also, Joqiza has showed up in the thread again, so I want to ask him why did he vote nobody after clearing Apogee several pages ago while claiming to scumread people other than Apogee. Especially considering I was an option by the time.

I'm still very frustrated about that, this is scummy and nobody else seems to care.

Not entirely sure what you're talking about tbh, I've only voted 2 people this game, Apogee and enomis, in both cases to start a wagon on them. There was a period of time where I unvoted Apogee and wasn't voting anyone cuz I was thinking through Apogee's response, I wasn't even thinking about starting a wagon on anyone at that point until I'd thought things through. I don't really understand what the obsession here is with having a vote on a player at all times, I don't find it productive at all, I'm not trying to use my vote to signal my level of scumread i'm trying to use it as a weapon to get someone lynched

I am saying that you voted Apogee, argued with him and ended up unvoting, but before voting Apogee you said you scumread me. You vote Apogee in 376, when my wagon (on your so claimed second scumread!!) already existed from Ydrasse's vote in parked on me in 284 and Votato's vote in 337. When you unvote Apogee in 393, my wagon is still fresh with 2 votes and it even gets more traction with 427 which is Midway's vote.

Your second preferred lynch slot is getting a thick wagon and you decide not to interact? I'm not saying you have to have a vote on someone at all times, but please tell me how do you scumread me for basically all of D1 and then have no interest in pushing me when others agree that I'm scummy. Especially after you've been satisfied by Apogee's response. Honestly, if Votato weren't a liar and an emotional manipulator, I would want your head before his because you are making no sense here and you are deflecting by calling it an obsession. I call it coherence.

i'm just going to respond to this because this is a really weird post, like first of all i don't even recall perfectly but why would the exact mechanical placement of my vote matter. like it feels like you think that at all times i have to be placing my vote on the person i SR the most, and you're trying to catch me in some kind of inconsistency there. i've already explained i think but i just voted apogee because no one was voting him and i wanted him to take my push seriously so i could get a better feel for his slot, then i voted enomis later because i wanted him lynched. i get you guys are super anal about voting but i just wasnt putting that much thought into it. also i dont understand your thought process here, like if i am scum to your town why would i not want to place a vote on your THICC wagon lol. honestly i don't think it's even good that you were run up to L-1 because you softclaimed villager so if ur town u just narrowed down PRs for mafia but no one seems to understand this point.

anyway, why would you think that me not voting you there would be alignment indicative, like what was going through your head that started with "he didn't vote me" and ended with "therefore he is mafia," i want to understand

Sounds to me like your scumread on me was fake political read, because I can't explain you not interacting with my wagon as town or scum if you actually scumread me at all. Who benefits from posting fake reads? Mafia, only mafia. What is so hard to see?

[Maduisha]

I've caught up, guys. I've read the cases against Quick and I'm not buying. I had him into consideration as Votato's partner based on Votato's behavior, but Quick's play and situation rules him out as Votato's partner because I don't think scum wants to bus his partner this early in the game into a mutual L-1 situation. So, I won't be hammering Quick because I'm adamant that Votato is scum, so don't worry about that.

Quick claimed VT already, which also reinforces my impression that he is not scum, because I think scum rolefishes for counterclaims before dying to at least be useful to his partner if they're losing half the team in D1 already.

[Maduisha]

I'm scumreading Votato and Joqiza but nobody wants to hammer Votato, it seems. And Joqiza goes pressure free after doing scummy stuff for reasons I have yet to understand. I'm kinda frustrated.

[Maduisha]

I'll be here for around 30 minutes, then I will be gone for 2h because I have a meeting. Then I'll be back, no worries. So you can fire me questions or whatever when I'm gone those 2h because I will answer when I'm back.

[Maduisha]

I also have read DK say we need to look for motivations behind actions and not just say "this is scummy", but I have a hard time seeing someone lie to have the upper hand in discussions 3 times and think it has some town motivation behind...

Correct me if I'm wrong and there's some usefulness in those lies for town, but I can't see it. Purposely misleading others during discussion sounds as scum motivated as it gets.

[Maduisha]

Okay, I'm done with my meeting, so I'm back here. I see nobody showed up, so I'm going to use this time to talk about the current wagons to make people see why am I not hammering Quick aside from what I already said.

[Maduisha]

does he still only have 1 vote?

so you read another game in entirety but you arent willing to flip back 3 pages to check votes and VC? quick is currently at 3 votes.

Oh, I am actually in serious danger of getting lynched.

Well, I am VT. GLHF.

First of all I think people have glossed over how important this claim is. The fact that Quick has not claimed a PR does not mean he is not scum (I am very aware of the power of claiming VT to throw people off because my partner did it in my last scum game and it earned us a mislynch), but makes it a lot more probable that he is, indeed, town. The optimal play for scum is still to claim PR if they're caught D1 because if they don't achieve to sway town with their claim in some way, scum is losing

half of their team

during the first day which is a fatal blow that will most likely lead to defeat, so claiming PR at least gives them a better shot by making another PR counter claim and getting themselves a surefire night kill. Quick has not capitalized on this chance at all, so I'm gonna say that's towny. But to address the concerns of people thinking he might still be scum claiming VT for the reason I stated before, I'm gonna assume this is scum!Quick for the following analysis on the current 4/4 situation:

If Quick is scum, his partner is not actively bussing him. The reason for that belief is the rolefishing strat being the optimal play when letting their partner die. If they're not fishing that means their partner has not given up on Quick yet and said partner is

outside the Quick wagon

. So if Quick is scum, the other scum is within: [Midwaybear, Enomis, Joqiza] (+ Myself but I'm not counting myself or Quick for obvious reasons, lol). From these 3 slots, I have town-locked Midway (yes, Votato, people townread Midway because of his attitude!!!! Stop trying to discredit him), and I think Enomis is town because Votato waited for his reaction during my wagon + Enomis has been very inactive and when he showed up to talk about his inactivity, he said he doesn't care about the game enough to invest himself. I townread this disinterest because I think scum is fueled by the motivation of getting taken seriously when accusing or getting townread when getting accused and he is doing nothing to help any of those conditions to make himself look town. That leaves us with Joqiza, whom I scumread.

What's my point here? Well, under the assumption that scum!Quick's partner still believes he can make it out alive and is not bussing him for towncred and not telling him to rolefish, they're doing something else. They're either voting Votato or having a vanity vote (hi, Joqiza!). So if you guys are determined to ignore me and lynch Quick and he flips scum, that's the pool of people I'd re-evaluate, but I'm having a hard time seeing any of those being scum except Joqiza, but my Joqiza scumread is partially tied to my Votato scumread so I'm not gonna hammer Quick under the basis that Joqiza is scum.

[Maduisha]

My second analysis on the current wagon situation:

the two people at L-1 are not in equal conditions.

Yes, they're not. My argument for this point is that:

- Joqiza has given intent to hammer in 24h

for Quick only

, because he has specifically stated that he is not hammering Votato in 1748.

- Midway has declared intent to hammer Quick as well. He clearly wants Votato lynched too because he has spent the last few days insisting people to vote Votato, but

his vote is already on Votato and thus cannot hammer.

Which leads me to point out what I did. The only player out of the two in real pressure to do anything is Quick because nobody has stated intent to hammer Votato. For scum!Votato, this L-1 means absolutely nothing because there are 2 hammer calls on the other party and 0 for himself. He even said it himself in post 1596, so he is well aware that he is not the D1 lynch. Votato is not under pressure, friends.

And now I'm gonna call the glaring contradiction in this position of no pressure: Votato is making "last words" posts in which he is asking people to watch other players if he gets lynched, as well as asking Joqiza (yes, the person that said "I'm not hammering Votato") to give him time to make some final posts before dying. If he

knows

he is not going down because of what I already explained, then why is he making these posts? I call fake positioning. He knows he is not in danger, he is trying to appeal to the emotions to make it seem like he believes he can be lynched. The posts in which he did the things I just said are here for anyone to read:

Fake "if I get lynched remember this" posts:

Spoiler:

be careful for bs stuff because it could be joqiza+votato

if it were the two of us joqiza would have hammered. he already stated that hes pretty sure that its quick and has given plenty of reason to vote quick. if he lynches me, take a close look at joq and definitely lynch quick.

REMEMBER THIS POST IF I GET LYNCHED

knightmare threw the game because he was so sure i was scum. he refused to reevaluate. sounds like what youre doing.

well one of you could say you changed your mind, vote me and then quick could hammer. its not a good look for you, but it would mostly implicate quick and people would still be on enomis and maduisha. its unlikely, but its possible.

And my favorite, Votato appealing to the one person that has stated to not be going to hammer him specifically, asking to give him time to say something, as if he were in real pressure when this is all fabricated:

Spoiler:

@joqiza anything about Quick's play remind u of shady's scumplay

snap reads. analysis of a mislynch. yeah.

but I give 24hr to read. I log off for tn

if you do decide to hammer me tomorrow, please give me an opportunity to say a few things first.

This last example coupled with post 1766 is giving me the feeling that Votato is tiptoeing on purpose just in case one of the towns in Quick's wagon changes their mind and gives intent to hammer him, he wants to both soft VT by implying he "is in danger of getting hammered" and soft PR by asking people to wait before hammer, thus creating the perfect wifom atmosphere to never be hammered D1.

These are my thoughts on the current wagon, feel free to tear them apart, but this is what I'm seeing.

[DkKoba]

does he still only have 1 vote?

so you read another game in entirety but you arent willing to flip back 3 pages to check votes and VC? quick is currently at 3 votes.

Oh, I am actually in serious danger of getting lynched.

Well, I am VT. GLHF.

First of all I think people have glossed over how important this claim is. The fact that Quick has not claimed a PR does not mean he is not scum (I am very aware of the power of claiming VT to throw people off because my partner did it in my last scum game and it earned us a mislynch), but makes it a lot more probable that he is, indeed, town. The optimal play for scum is still to claim PR if they're caught D1 because if they don't achieve to sway town with their claim in some way, scum is losing

half of their team

during the first day which is a fatal blow that will most likely lead to defeat, so claiming PR at least gives them a better shot by making another PR counter claim and getting themselves a surefire night kill. Quick has not capitalized on this chance at all, so I'm gonna say that's towny. But to address the concerns of people thinking he might still be scum claiming VT for the reason I stated before, I'm gonna assume this is scum!Quick for the following analysis on the current 4/4 situation:

If Quick is scum, his partner is not actively bussing him. The reason for that belief is the rolefishing strat being the optimal play when letting their partner die. If they're not fishing that means their partner has not given up on Quick yet and said partner is

outside the Quick wagon

. So if Quick is scum, the other scum is within: [Midwaybear, Enomis, Joqiza] (+ Myself but I'm not counting myself or Quick for obvious reasons, lol). From these 3 slots, I have town-locked Midway (yes, Votato, people townread Midway because of his attitude!!!! Stop trying to discredit him), and I think Enomis is town because Votato waited for his reaction during my wagon + Enomis has been very inactive and when he showed up to talk about his inactivity, he said he doesn't care about the game enough to invest himself. I townread this disinterest because I think scum is fueled by the motivation of getting taken seriously when accusing or getting townread when getting accused and he is doing nothing to help any of those conditions to make himself look town. That leaves us with Joqiza, whom I scumread.

What's my point here? Well, under the assumption that scum!Quick's partner still believes he can make it out alive and is not bussing him for towncred and not telling him to rolefish, they're doing something else. They're either voting Votato or having a vanity vote (hi, Joqiza!). So if you guys are determined to ignore me and lynch Quick and he flips scum, that's the pool of people I'd re-evaluate, but I'm having a hard time seeing any of those being scum except Joqiza, but my Joqiza scumread is partially tied to my Votato scumread so I'm not gonna hammer Quick under the basis that Joqiza is scum.

quick rolefished u derp

[Maduisha]

When I say he did not rolefish I mean with his claim. He didn't claim PR to weed the true PRs out, he claimed VT.

I also found weird the ways he mentioned masons and trackers before, but his claim wasn't an attempt to rolefish at all.

[DkKoba]

or perhaps they have a strong enough PR read at this point because of this fishing.

[Maduisha]

That still doesn't mean claiming PR is still the best strat for a dying scum getting bussed D1, since a good read will always be worse than being certain.

Do you think he's both claiming VT and getting bussed? I think he is clinging to life if he is scum. I don't think this is the case.

[Maduisha]

I butchered my phrasing there, lol.

*That still doesn't deny claiming PR is the best strat is what I meant.

[DkKoba]

I don't think joqiza is necessarily scum here unless he flips his reasoning to hammer votato

[Maduisha]

Speaking of that guy, you know him, right? Does he usually play like this? Because I can't get out of my head that he said I'm scum but did not want to vote in the best opportunity he had to drive his point home, nor did he participate in the push on my slot at all.

He says I'm obsessed with vote placement and that you guys don't do stuff like that in the other forum, so I want to know. He keeps ignoring and deflecting, so I don't know what to do if nobody else agrees on my take on him.

[Apogee]

Maduisha in response to 1858 while I understand your point about there not being pressure on Votato, I do think 1621 is a reasonable response explaining why he was still concerned/doing last word posts. I'm not sure I follow on him setting up both a soft vt and soft pr claim?

[Maduisha]

It's very simple. Claiming when you're at L-1 is the usual. The fact that he is making last words posts without claiming can be interpreted as "he's not PR or he would've claimed already to free himself and lynch Quick instead", but doing these and later asking the hammer holder to give him more time implies the opposite at the same time. That means he is trying to be in position not to claim and keep himself safe from counter-claim (because it's risky for scum to just claim PR without knowing the setup since it's D1 unless they're accepting death), but also still be able to claim to make the actual PR out themselves if it comes to that.

He's made posts that come from two different stances on the same situation, if you get what I mean now.

[votato]

i have done no softclaiming either way.I havent made qny last words posts because im not about to die. I want the opportunity in case i do die.

[votato]

on my wagon are the likely scumpair and two people tunneling me for personal reasons. No one else has been convinced. That says something

[Maduisha]

Implying you can die when you're at L-1 while not claiming anything means you don't have proof of yourself being town with a PR claim-> VT soft.

Asking the hammer holder to give you time before death-> PR soft.

Unless what you want to say by then has nothing to do with roles and you're actually holding the hammer for something you could be saying right now. In which case, I don't understand.

[enomis]

Hey guys, I think this claiming argument needs to stop.

[enomis]

Because it seems most likely joqiza will hammer quick.

[Maduisha]

Also Votato, can I ask you why did you ask for more time to the only person saying literally that they will not hammer you in specific? It makes no sense.

[Maduisha]

Hey guys, I think this claiming argument needs to stop.

Because it seems most likely joqiza will hammer quick.

Are you proposing to just wait until the 24h timer runs out and he hammers...?

Ugh, this game, this game, this game...